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Old 04-07-2011, 01:56 PM   #120
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I really hope they dont start using DOHC engines.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:10 PM   #121
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The only ZL1 parts the Z28 should get is the exhaust. I would say the drivetrain support as well but now were talking serious weight. Is there no cast aluminum differential available? The LS7 is unessessary, although it is the easiest solution, it will cost more and weight more than the LS3. The LS series is almost finished so I'm not sure GM would spend the money to tune and test an aggressive LS3 for a single application unless the Grand Sport also recieved this LSZ. The E-Rod 376 is street legal in all 50 states but not sure that the MPG's would be suitable.

You can save some weight in the exhaust (25lbs), 18 inch wheels (30lbs), Cast aluminum differential (15lbs), driveshaft (15lbs), 16 gallon fuel tank (18lbs), ZR1 brake system (15lbs), racing interior (40lbs)... This would be expensive no doubt, but that's the advantage of using an LS3, that and the weight.
I see your car is already at that lower weight! Nice. Sometimes I wish I had gone to the dark side, some things about the Camaro are frustrating. But I still like my SS. I will keep it for now.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:15 PM   #122
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I am hoping for a Z28 priced for performance. Like others have stated along with me, this car needs to be focused on that alone. I'll be sorely disappointed if it turns out being an upgraded SS so to speak, and price itself out of the running for many of us. Some have suggested that they drop the 1SS from the lineup and put the Z28 in its place.

That would make sense from a selling standpoint. You'd have the 2SS (or just "SS" as it would be the only one) for V8 power + features and extras, and the Z28 for V8 Power + Performance upgrades. It would be a tradeoff, one or the other, dependent on what mattered most to the person buying the car. If they want the best of both worlds, then they have the top dog ZL1 for that purpose.

Everyone wonders where the Z28 would fit in the lineup, and that is what seems like would be the best solution. Also, features such as sunroof, convertible top or automatic transmission would be SS only options.

That way, the Z28 could stand its ground and a similar ballpark range in price to the (2)SS for the price of performance, and not be priced out of range with extras. It would ideally be situated above the SS in performance, but below the ZL1 in overall power, and contain interior and features akin to the LS.

I am also not a huge fan of the SS V8's having that half and half mode where it only engages all eight cylinders when accelerating. Sure, it sounds great in theory, but in the long term, it is still a recent concept and not entirely proven yet. It is one of the reasons I went with the LS and not the SS when I bought my current Camaro. I wasn't sure something like that wouldn't have issues ten year down the line.

For someone like me that buys cars and keeps them for the long haul, I did not want to take a gamble on something not completely proven yet to stand the test of time. It is also why I waited to get a 2011 instead of a 2010 when they first came out so there was at least one model year and good reviews of a model with the kinks worked out before I made a purchase. Hopefully, a track pack Z28 would run on all eight cylinders all the time.

That is where I would be looking for the Z28 in terms of making a purchase. Then my LS could function as a daily driver, and the Z28 could be the weekend warrior.
If Chevy decides to really compete with the Boss I am afraid the price will be north of a loaded 2SS. Besides putting on the good stuff they need to save some weight. Even getting a current SS down to 3650 is pricey, let alone the upgrades.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:27 PM   #123
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what's up world? long time no talk.

well, I want a z28 no matter what. to the people that think the 1ss should be dropped and z28 put in it's place how does that makes sense when your uber camaro starts with a Z? so base camaro v-8 Z then switch it to an SS then back to a Z? nope not going to happen.


as for what we all would like to see...it's all opinion right now since it's not even a real car. and opinions are like A##holes everyones got one.

so here's mine.

direct injection v-8 north of 470hp/tq.
dry sump
curb weight 3500-3700 lbs for a manual
18 inch wheels
magnetic ride select
5 point harness (even though the z06 doesn't even come with that)
seats that will hold you pulling 1+G's
40k price tag.


make the thing handle and you will finally get my business GM. unless I break
down and get the ZL1. which has little of what I really want.

all this is just a wish list. and reality might be far from this
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:12 PM   #124
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I didn't say make the 1SS the Z28. I said with a Z28 in the lineup, they wouldn't need a base V8 model anymore. The Z28 would be the base in terms of features (bells and whistles, if you will) but it would be performance based. I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't cost more than a 2SS either, although that could be inferred from the way I worded my post. Many keep saying adding the Z28 to the lineup would be one model too many, so I was just trying to guess at one potential solution to that potential issue, if it even is one.

What I was trying to say is that in terms of performance, the Z28 > 2SS, but in terms of luxury features, the 2SS > Z28.

Hopefully that will clear up any confusion on my previous post. Here's hoping we see the Z28 in some form in the next two years!
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:41 PM   #125
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I think the ZL1 is great but I am not into supercharged or turbo cars so I hope the Z28 is a a LS7 and lighter weight then our SS Camaros and more set up like a road racer.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:40 PM   #126
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There is a limit on the Boss 302 as well, there will be a total of 4000 Boss 302's built this year. 750 of those will be Laguna Seca's. It is strange that Ford actually went public with a solid figure, they usually are pretty secret about that.

On another note, some of us "enthusiast" are petitioning Ford to start a Boss job #2 since all of those 2012 Boss Mustang's have been spoken for.

The success of the Boss is only candy for GM. The Boss hype is probably really making them think about the Z28.
Sgt. why did Ford limit the Boss to 4000 units? With Chevy not putting a limit on the ZL1, to me me it would seem to give Chevy a large advantage, especially since all of the Boss's have already been sold? Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:52 PM   #127
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Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
well reduce weight or not for the z28... do you think it will be the direct boss competitor like the zl1 is the gt 500 competitor? ... or will the z28 be the new alpha dog on top of zl1
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:45 AM   #128
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You can save some weight in the exhaust (25lbs), 18 inch wheels (30lbs), Cast aluminum differential (15lbs), driveshaft (15lbs), 16 gallon fuel tank (18lbs), ZR1 brake system (15lbs), racing interior (40lbs)... This would be expensive no doubt, but that's the advantage of using an LS3, that and the weight.
The diff is already aluminum.
The driveshaft is already about as light as it's getting without costing BIG bucks for a few pounds.
ZR1 brakes, WAY TOO expensive. The CTS-V brakes would give the car all it needs to be competitive.


The other ideas are good

... Getting closer to a competitive car without breaking the bank.
You're alright for a mustang dude


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Originally Posted by Hotrod6464 View Post
I think the ZL1 is great but I am not into supercharged or turbo cars so I hope the Z28 is a a LS7 and lighter weight then our SS Camaros and more set up like a road racer.
Check out the price of a stand-alone LS7 and get back with me. You'll also need the stouter trans and diff to go with it.... you're gonna end up with a $70,000 car!
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:45 PM   #129
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The diff is already aluminum.
The driveshaft is already about as light as it's getting without costing BIG bucks for a few pounds.
ZR1 brakes, WAY TOO expensive. The CTS-V brakes would give the car all it needs to be competitive.


The other ideas are good

... Getting closer to a competitive car without breaking the bank.
You're alright for a mustang dude



Check out the price of a stand-alone LS7 and get back with me. You'll also need the stouter trans and diff to go with it.... you're gonna end up with a $70,000 car!
The LS7 is right at $14,000 retail & the LS3 is about $8,500 retail. Keep in mind thats retail. So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:48 PM   #130
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Sgt. why did Ford limit the Boss to 4000 units? With Chevy not putting a limit on the ZL1, to me me it would seem to give Chevy a large advantage, especially since all of the Boss's have already been sold?
I'm not sure why Ford put a limit on it. Ford usually keeps initial production numbers of special models quiet which leads me to believe that only the Laguna Seca is capped. I need to look into this a little bit more but, the only official word Ford released on production was that "Every dealer was ensured to receive at least one Boss 302 (there are almost 4000 dealers in the US and Canada), only the top selling dealers would receive a chip for a second Boss 302 (or more) based on their previous Mustang sales. I have seen some dealers being allocated eight (8) Boss 302's such as the one in Dallas. Ford said they planned on building 4000 Boss 302s (just looked it up) as this number is not firm. I would say that if the initial 4000 are spoken for, Job 2 will be rolling out before summer.
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #131
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The LS7 is right at $14,000 retail & the LS3 is about $8,500 retail. Keep in mind thats retail. So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
You're not gonna see a LS7 in a Camaro for a 3-4 grand premium.

You also won't see it with LS3's drivetrain... they know better. (think warranty)
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:20 PM   #132
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Also wouldn't a DOHC GenV weigh more than the current LS3 and go against trying to reduce weight in the Z28?
I love DOHC engines... I see the elimination of parasitic losses in internal combustion engines as the future of performance and in my opinion, so does GM. I don't have a current GM DOHC engine to do this comparison so, I will use the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote. The weight between the two engines are pretty close, the LS3 weighs 418lbs wet, dressed and ready to run. The 5.0 weighs 429lbs the same way, (the 4.6 DOHC weighed 425lbs). That is an 11lb difference and not really a substantial amount. The 5.0 uses an 8 quart oil capacity compared to the LS3's 6 quart. That is almost 4lbs extra in oil (3.75) but extra oil is always a good thing. The extra weight typically comes from the slightly larger head casting and the additional 3 extra cams. The camshafts are much smaller than the standard cam used in the LS3 but either way, its still only 11lbs heavier than the LS3. There are technologies that could reduce a future GM DOHC's weight down to the current LS3's weight. The plasma transfer wire arc process that eliminates the iron cylinder walls saved 8.5lbs in the 5.4 (also a increase in power and MPG).

Both the LS3 and the 5.0 are probably some of the lightest V8's in the history of V8's.
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:26 PM   #133
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So I am thinking GM may have About $3,000 more in the LS7 verse The LS3. Throw in a extra thousand for them to make a little on the deal. So, for about 3 to 4 thousand more you could put the LS7 in a Z28. And people on here are all ready saying add more HP to the LS3, So the extra 50 to 60 HP gained with the LS7, should not require an any stronger diff' & tranny, over what you would need for the higher HP LS3.
it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:33 PM   #134
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it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
S/C isn't a good track motor due to power loss from excessive heat.

DOHC= dual overhead cam
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:32 PM   #135
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it would definitely be more than 3 to 4k I think to upgrade... so why not just spend a little and get a supercharger... that will way exceed the HP produced from a ls7 ... or get a ZL1, lower the pully size and increase boost by 2 PSI or so and your up to 540 RWHP from a 550hp at the crank

also... what is a DOHC engine ?
A supercharged engine speeds up heat soak and then suffers directly from the issue. Heat soak is when the entire engine bay, engine components and fluids become hot. The intake becomes hot and starts to warm the air going into the combustion chamber. Hot air is dense (edit: less dense), therefore, affecting performance. This happens naturally as the engine gets hotter, regardless if it is supercharged or not. As a supercharged engine becomes heat soaked though, its high power output becomes mitigated by heat and begins to compress hot air into the combustion chamber and eventually the cars computer will intervene (more on that in a few). Power losses are relatively small in naturally aspired engines, this is another kind of parasitic loss. As a supercharged V8 becomes heat soaked, the onboard computers will set spark and timing back to protect the motor and avoid misfires and improper detonation. This results in a major horsepower loss, sometimes as much as 40 to 80 horsepower and in extremely humid days, it could be more.

A road course and the cars that run them should take every precaution possible to prevent heat. This would include the installation of a supercharger. Superchargers are fantastic for short races and produce huge power for those races. Cool downs are usually required between races.

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Old 04-08-2011, 03:48 PM   #136
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A supercharged engine speeds up heat soak and then suffers directly from the issue. Heat soak is when the entire engine bay, engine components and fluids become hot. The intake becomes hot and starts to warm the air going into the combustion chamber. Hot air is dense, therefore, affecting performance. This happens naturally as the engine gets hotter, regardless if it is supercharged or not. As a supercharged engine becomes heat soaked though, its high power output becomes mitigated by heat and begins to compress hot air into the combustion chamber and eventually the cars computer will intervene (more on that in a few). Power losses are relatively small in naturally aspired engines, this is another kind of parasitic loss. As a supercharged V8 becomes heat soaked, the onboard computers will set spark and timing back to protect the motor and avoid misfires and improper detonation. This results in a major horsepower loss, sometimes as much as 40 to 80 horsepower and in extremely humid days, it could be more.

A road course and the cars that run them should take every precaution possible to prevent heat. This would include the installation of a supercharger. Superchargers are fantastic for short races and produce huge power for those races. Cool downs are usually required between races.
makes sense... except hot air is less dense as it expands when heated and contracts when cooled :P

anyway, in all of that... why not just add a better intercooler system so that you dont suffer from heat stroke as much with a supercharger?
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