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Old 04-14-2011, 08:41 PM   #15
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So basically only some parts may come from other models? No brake calipers from zo6/zr1 and no FI... no magnetic ride control and much less weight .... suspension will be based off grand am?
Whoops!! I went into an extended rant and forgot to answer your questions. Magnetic Ride Control is illegal in road racing of almost every kind. The old F55 option MRC shocks would overheat as well but I believe the next generation shocks were suppose to fix that (says the Z06 elitist). I don't think the Carbon Ceramic brake rotors would make it either, they are banned in ALMS, not because they are ineffective or dangerous to run... because those lower level teams that fill up the pack cannot afford them. Road racing has a lot of rules to keep it competitive with driver skill and race engineering. If cash teams were allowed to run prototype equipment or systems that were far more advanced than everybody elses.... money would win everytime. These cars are as close to production, real life automobiles as your going to get in racing today.

I would definitely look too Grand Am's Camaro for the next Z28. As soon as you see GM Performance directly sponsoring either the Stevenson or Mitchum Camaro, you know there is definitely, absolutely, 100% positively Camaro Z28 tech going in there.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:04 AM   #16
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Pill, you're basing your "cannot do" list on an existing production SS chassis. IF there is a Z/28 created and available in volumes greater than 500 units (which WILL be the case), the Z/28 will come with "upgrades" over and above the SS...including most assuredly the BRAKES...which will NOT be a "useless" upgrade...

Remember that brakes, like horsepower, can never be "too much"!

As for the Multimatic Mustang of Scott Maxwell and Co., look for them up front...they have a certain history with the FR500C that is enviable...and Multimatic is a division of Magna International Inc. (do a google), who do NOT suffer from a lack of either funds OR factory support...

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...D_AM/110419995

Scott, to Mustangs, is kinda like Ron Fellows was to C5R/C6R Vettes...and coincidentally, both are Canadians who earned their stripes in the GM/Player's Challenge Series 20-odd years ago in Canada.

http://www.playerschallengeseries.ca..._East_pics.htm

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Old 04-15-2011, 08:01 PM   #17
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Pill, you're basing your "cannot do" list on an existing production SS chassis. IF there is a Z/28 created and available in volumes greater than 500 units (which WILL be the case), the Z/28 will come with "upgrades" over and above the SS...including most assuredly the BRAKES...which will NOT be a "useless" upgrade...
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post

Remember that brakes, like horsepower, can never be "too much"!
I put the "500 minimum production" rule out there just to solidify a point I made three post after I posted the rule. My point was that the Camaro GS will be replaced by either the SS or the Z28 soon, same as every eligible car has done already. My intentions were not to say that the Z28 would be limited to 500 units a year. You obviously do not support the Camaros in Grand Am enough to know this but..... Although some eligible cars do run a factory setup, others like the Camaro GS do not always use the factory 14" fr/14.4" rr disc brake setup. Camaro teams are actually permitted to use the stock V6 12.4" rear disc brakes and most of them do. Some teams run smaller than factory disc in Grand Am but most production cars a factory ready to run this type of race and do not need to downsize to smaller brakes because they are factory built small (11.9 rr brakes on the Boss). In race cars, "race weight" and the race cars brakes go hand in hand just as GVWR and brake systems in production cars do. In fact, braking systems and GVWR's are so dependent on each other that they identified by the same digit in the VIN. If you lighten the vehicle, it is only natural to reduce amount of brake surface and the amount of force applied to that surface via the calipers. 14.7"/14.4" rotors are light weight and at speeds, could defeat the traction of a 285 tire and possibly the ABS at a race weight of only 3400lbs. That braking system may be too much for a car that has a 4550lb GVWR (as the production Z28 would hopefully be equal to the SS). So the teams usually opt for a smaller disc...

The Grand Am Z28 will not have big disc brakes on the race car, this is something the production cars will have that the Grand Am cars do not but the Z28 will not require the ZL1/CTS-V's braking system because:

1.) they are too large for the vehicle that must maintain at least the front disc and still use an 18" wheel.

2.) The GVWR will be the same or hopefully a few pounds lower than the SS.

3.) The 6 piston calipers are illegal in Grand Am and only a maximum of four pistons are allowed per wheel...

The three reasons stated above would make 14.7 inch, 6 piston calipers USELESS on a track ready, turnkey production race car. Because they are too large for the race weight/wheel size and the calipers are not permitted to compete.


Quote:
As for the Multimatic Mustang of Scott Maxwell and Co., look for them up front...they have a certain history with the FR500C that is enviable...and Multimatic is a division of Magna International Inc. (do a google), who do NOT suffer from a lack of either funds OR factory support...
Quote:
Scott, to Mustangs, is kind of like Ron Fellows was to C5R/C6R Vettes...and coincidentally, both are Canadians who earned their stripes in the GM/Player's Challenge Series 20-odd years ago in Canada.
I know Multimatic is a great team, they also have factory support in the Grand Am GS Boss 302 as well as FIA GT3 Mustang. Roush also is a wealthy team which is why I said:
Quote:
Road racing has a lot of rules to keep it competitive with driver skill and race engineering. If cash teams were allowed to run prototype equipment or systems that were far more advanced than everybody else’s.... money would win every time.


Roush and Multimatic have factory support, great drivers and fantastic race engineering, that is why they are in the front all the time. BMW came to Grand Am to race Ford, BMW brought exactly those three things but didn't dominate the GS series as they would have liked to. BMW won last year, Ford won the year before and I hope they win it this year as it looks like Multimatic and Roush are after the BMW's this year (slow start though). If one of the Camaro teams had factory support they might do better...
You make it sound like the whole Multimatic team is an evil, underground, criminal organization that is funded by an illegal black market corporation. They drive a Ford, why wouldn't they have factory support? Multimatic is using Ford next gen IRS in the FIA Mustang, maybe Ford supports them because they can keep their mouths shut when testing stuff like the Boss and CB IRS.

Anyway, why don't you try to add something to the Z28 instead of just telling me whats wrong with my post. You never add anything.

What chassis will the Z28 be built on and why not the 5th Gen?
What kind of improvements to the current chassis would have to be made?
What would the "upgraded" brakes be?
How many Z28's do you think will be built?

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Old 04-16-2011, 08:40 AM   #18
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What sized brakes do they put on the Z06? The ZR1? The Vette GS? Which weigh what? Great big useless ones...

Regardless of what GrandAm allows or disallows, expect brakes on a Z/28 production version to be superior to those currently offered on the SS, regardless of the Z/28's GVWR. Many more Z/28s (and BOSS Mustangs) will see usage in HPDE environs than GrandAm racing...and after an hour or two of runnin', none of those folks will ever accuse the Manufacturers of putting "useless big brakes" on their cars.

My "opinion" of a Z/28 is chronicled elsewhere on this forum. In appropriate threads. And my "opinion" is merely that...like yours, it's "conjecture" at this point. Time will tell...

As to your "extended rant", I'm now sorry I validated it... And don't re-use YOUR quote and attribute its content and/or suppositions to ME, as if I think Multimatic is "the Evil Empire". I made no such statement, implied or direct. I merely linked then DIRECTLY to Ford, which they are. And their direct association goes back many years, through many projects...all the way back to the mid-'90s, uninterrupted. Which partially explains their continued success...and why, once again, GM has to play "catch-up", involving racing AND Camaro vs. Mustang.

As to "money" being involved, it ALWAYS is...that is EXACTLY how the breed is advanced...

Facts, not conjecture...

You've managed to take a Production-based "When will it arrive?" thread and turn it into a "Here's what we'll race, how we'll build it, and where we'll race it" thread. Perhaps Stevenson AND the Camaro Team need your psychic and engineering abilitites...

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Old 04-16-2011, 09:14 AM   #19
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Who knows. What really doesn't make sense, is why Chevy is going out of order of nameplates. The V6 RS, Z28, SS, ZL1...

Just wondering why the Z28 will be faster than the SS. It's always been the other way around.
The SS was faster in strait lines, not around corners. The z/28 was made to be a street legal race car. The SS was put the biggest motor you can in it and see how fast it goes. After the first and second gen the SS package more or less disappeared. With the exception of the 1998-2002 SS's but they were modified by SLP, not GM.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:10 AM   #20
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What sized brakes do they put on the Z06? The ZR1? The Vette GS? Which weigh what? Great big useless ones...

Regardless of what GrandAm allows or disallows, expect brakes on a Z/28 production version to be superior to those currently offered on the SS, regardless of the Z/28's GVWR. Many more Z/28s (and BOSS Mustangs) will see usage in HPDE environs than GrandAm racing...and after an hour or two of runnin', none of those folks will ever accuse the Manufacturers of putting "useless big brakes" on their cars.

My "opinion" of a Z/28 is chronicled elsewhere on this forum. In appropriate threads. And my "opinion" is merely that...like yours, it's "conjecture" at this point. Time will tell...

As to your "extended rant", I'm now sorry I validated it... And don't re-use YOUR quote and attribute its content and/or suppositions to ME, as if I think Multimatic is "the Evil Empire". I made no such statement, implied or direct. I merely linked then DIRECTLY to Ford, which they are. And their direct association goes back many years, through many projects...all the way back to the mid-'90s, uninterrupted. Which partially explains their continued success...and why, once again, GM has to play "catch-up", involving racing AND Camaro vs. Mustang.

As to "money" being involved, it ALWAYS is...that is EXACTLY how the breed is advanced...

Facts, not conjecture...

You've managed to take a Production-based "When will it arrive?" thread and turn it into a "Here's what we'll race, how we'll build it, and where we'll race it" thread. Perhaps Stevenson AND the Camaro Team need your psychic and engineering abilitites...
Sorry bud, my last post was a little uncalled for, I may have prematurely linked the possible April 2012 Z28 release with the Grand Am series. Many of the post before mine referenced the Boss being the benchmark and GM being able to attain one to do just that now that the Boss is public. I was trying to make the connection between the Boss and Z28 by merely pointing out how the Boss 302 was brought to production and was pointing out that Grand Am was used as a developing tool. Knowing that, and knowing that Grand Am requires a actual production car and identifying the current Camaro GS/Grand Am situation.... We can watch the Grand Am series for any changes in the Camaro or any slip ups like the announcer video I posted.

As for the braking systems used by the Corvettes, in ALMS, the Corvette uses smaller cast iron rotors in ALMS GT2 (now just GT) and not the production carbon fiber disc brakes. The ZR1 uses carbon-ceramic 15.5" disc, 6 piston calipers in front/15.0" disc, 6 piston calipers in the rear where the ALMS GT Corvette uses cast iron 14.9" disc,6 piston calipers in front/14.0" disc, 4 piston calipers in the rear. The Corvette uses a smaller rotors because the actual car does not require the extra disc area and the extra force offered by the 6 piston calipers in the rear. The GT Corvette is 545lbs lighter than the ZR1 and as I said before, too much disc area on a car that does not need it can defeat the tires traction and even ABS if it is used. This is going to sound strange but... there is a common misconception that brakes are used to stop the car... but, "brakes are used to stop the tires that are on the wheels... the tires are used to stop the car"(A great driver once told me that). I'm not saying that prototype disc brakes are useless, I'm saying that those types of brakes are useless for a dual purpose, road and track Z28.

I believe the that both the SS (and the GT) production brake systems are not suitable for track use in their current form. I also believe that those systems could be vastly improved to see track duty as the GT's brakes showed in the production Boss 302 application as they are also used in Grand Am. While either car could easily be raced in a GT class, I would rather see the cars in the GS class race. The GT classes around the world usually are using technology that "will be in cars tomorrow" but the GS class in Grand Am is more like "what is in cars today" and this is one of the places where I think this pony car battle should be played out... but we have to get rid of those damn BMW's first.

I understand that you think this "when will it arrive" is not the appropriate thread to talk about the "Here's what we'll race, how we'll build it, and where we'll race it" but...... if the Z28 comes to light, and as this thread questions if April 2012 is appropriate, then we need to at least have an understanding of what it will be used for, how it should be built and where it will be used to get a better idea of when it will be built. We already know why... to battle the Boss 302.

It was my understanding that Team Camaro and GM were listening to the fans, I seen that first hand with the recent announcement with the 2012 Camaro changes. I'm not trying to be psychic and I'm not sure my understanding of automobiles can be considered "engineering abilities’ (at least not yet). I am only missing the final "W" here in the production Z28 and just adding my enthusiasm in hope that GM's team Camaro is listening and we will see or hear about this car soon... Again, I apologize for the aggressive post and sorry for the length of some of them
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:16 PM   #21
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I am in a bit of a quandry, although i am on the dealer's list for a zl1 I really want a z28 (something lighter and nimble more road and track friendly at a cheap price). My problem is I have to wait to find when and if there will be a z28.

I have to get another car sometime next year and i hope GM becomes a bit more action oriented and starts to move things along a bit faster.




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Sorry bud, my last post was a little uncalled for, I may have prematurely linked the possible April 2012 Z28 release with the Grand Am series. Many of the post before mine referenced the Boss being the benchmark and GM being able to attain one to do just that now that the Boss is public. I was trying to make the connection between the Boss and Z28 by merely pointing out how the Boss 302 was brought to production and was pointing out that Grand Am was used as a developing tool. Knowing that, and knowing that Grand Am requires a actual production car and identifying the current Camaro GS/Grand Am situation.... We can watch the Grand Am series for any changes in the Camaro or any slip ups like the announcer video I posted.

As for the braking systems used by the Corvettes, in ALMS, the Corvette uses smaller cast iron rotors in ALMS GT2 (now just GT) and not the production carbon fiber disc brakes. The ZR1 uses carbon-ceramic 15.5" disc, 6 piston calipers in front/15.0" disc, 6 piston calipers in the rear where the ALMS GT Corvette uses cast iron 14.9" disc,6 piston calipers in front/14.0" disc, 4 piston calipers in the rear. The Corvette uses a smaller rotors because the actual car does not require the extra disc area and the extra force offered by the 6 piston calipers in the rear. The GT Corvette is 545lbs lighter than the ZR1 and as I said before, too much disc area on a car that does not need it can defeat the tires traction and even ABS if it is used. This is going to sound strange but... there is a common misconception that brakes are used to stop the car... but, "brakes are used to stop the tires that are on the wheels... the tires are used to stop the car"(A great driver once told me that). I'm not saying that prototype disc brakes are useless, I'm saying that those types of brakes are useless for a dual purpose, road and track Z28.

I believe the that both the SS (and the GT) production brake systems are not suitable for track use in their current form. I also believe that those systems could be vastly improved to see track duty as the GT's brakes showed in the production Boss 302 application as they are also used in Grand Am. While either car could easily be raced in a GT class, I would rather see the cars in the GS class race. The GT classes around the world usually are using technology that "will be in cars tomorrow" but the GS class in Grand Am is more like "what is in cars today" and this is one of the places where I think this pony car battle should be played out... but we have to get rid of those damn BMW's first.

I understand that you think this "when will it arrive" is not the appropriate thread to talk about the "Here's what we'll race, how we'll build it, and where we'll race it" but...... if the Z28 comes to light, and as this thread questions if April 2012 is appropriate, then we need to at least have an understanding of what it will be used for, how it should be built and where it will be used to get a better idea of when it will be built. We already know why... to battle the Boss 302.

It was my understanding that Team Camaro and GM were listening to the fans, I seen that first hand with the recent announcement with the 2012 Camaro changes. I'm not trying to be psychic and I'm not sure my understanding of automobiles can be considered "engineering abilities’ (at least not yet). I am only missing the final "W" here in the production Z28 and just adding my enthusiasm in hope that GM's team Camaro is listening and we will see or hear about this car soon... Again, I apologize for the aggressive post and sorry for the length of some of them
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:53 PM   #22
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As much as I would love to see a Z28 being produced in the year 2012 so that I could choose between the ZL1 and Z28 I just don't see it happening. I mean from a marketing scheme its like shooting yourself in the foot. Your competing with your self and the buyers that could afford either car, I just don't see it happening. GM is a company and they need to make money that's the bottom line, and also the time to develope thier cars the right way. The Z28 will make its appearance I have no dought about that, due to the interest that's been shown here and at the various auto shows. But you need to be realistic about things and the timing of
introducing new products.

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Old 04-16-2011, 08:08 PM   #23
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GM can either compete against themselves with zl1 or z28 or lose some sales to the Boss for those who want an affordable type of z28 car. For myself i'll either get the zl1 or a 2012 Camaro v6. The 2012 Camaro has 323 HP and it is light and agile (track friendly).




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As much as I would love to see a Z28 being produced in tghe year 2012 so that I could choose between the ZL1 and Z28 I just don't see it happening. I mean from a marketing scheme its like shooting yourself in the foot. Your competing with your self and the buyers that could afford either car, I just don't see it happening. GM is a company and they need to make money that's the bottom line, and also the time to develope thier cars the right way. The Z28 will make its appearance I have no dought about that, due to the interest that's been shown here and at the various auto shows. But you need to be realistic about things and the timing of
introducing new products.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:11 PM   #24
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There ya go sounds like a plan to me
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:02 PM   #25
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As much as I would love to see a Z28 being produced in the year 2012 so that I could choose between the ZL1 and Z28 I just don't see it happening. I mean from a marketing scheme its like shooting yourself in the foot. Your competing with your self and the buyers that could afford either car, I just don't see it happening. GM is a company and they need to make money that's the bottom line, and also the time to develope thier cars the right way. The Z28 will make its appearance I have no dought about that, due to the interest that's been shown here and at the various auto shows. But you need to be realistic about things and the timing of
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introducing new products.
I understand how you feel man and I'm sure there are many enthusiast on this site that feels like you do. Torn between a ZL1 or a Z28 does seem like a dilemma for GM. But the enthusiast on this site and all the other sites make up only about 1% of the actual sales. Real car enthusiast are found here and for the most part, are the only people who feel your pain. Regular people won't see these cars (Z28), because regular people will be trampled on by the group of people I'm going to talk about now.... The other crowd, and this would be the same crowd who invested in the Boss 302 idea, is the race crowd. The SCCA, NASA and FIA have a much larger, committed crowd. They are the kind of people that have the money in their pocket and are dedicated to racing almost full time. This is what the Boss was aimed at and this is who the Boss was sold too... This is what the Boss was for. I know GM is just getting started in the GT500's class and this is probably a scary time for GM. This is also the Camaro's 45th anniversary and I have to admit, the 45th Ann Camaro is the best anniversary Camaro ever.

I know it seems like they are shooting themselves in the leg here but I believe they will sell all their ZL1s. The Z28 will have no trouble selling as well, I might even personally have a plan to fulfill the slight increase in production without dipping into the ZL1/Convertible. This Z28 needs to be built, they know how to build it because they built the SSX for a reason, probably trying to see how much weight could be reduced in the car. They are already parting the SSX out now, what’s to say that still couldn't continue. I'm not saying bring it out tomorrow, I’m not saying bring it out next year.. but by fall 2012 we should hear word of the upcoming Z28 and I feel like it can be done on the 5th gens chassis.

If it isn't done, I will be convinced that either the 5th gen Camaro is just not worthy of the Z28 name or the Z28 name is just not that big of a deal. We are currently enjoying a time in US automobiles that is GREATER than the 60s and 70s... I would like to see it all. It might not sound realistic, but Ford is trudging ahead through the adversity of fuel prices and emissions and sticking to the one thing that brought our cars to light... racing... I will continue my campaign... all I want to know is, who’s coming with me?
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:57 PM   #26
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GM can either compete against themselves with zl1 or z28 or lose some sales to the Boss for those who want an affordable type of z28 car. For myself i'll either get the zl1 or a 2012 Camaro v6. The 2012 Camaro has 323 HP and it is light and agile (track friendly).
Since the Boss 302 is a limited edition, I wouldn't think GM would think about losing sales to Boss 302s, but the reputation for winning races will sell plenty of GT Premiums and ZL1s and SSs.

What about GM's support for the CTS-V in sanctioned road racing??? Does that mean they're placing greater possibilities on it being a winner than the Camaro?
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:07 AM   #27
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Since the Boss 302 is a limited edition, I wouldn't think GM would think about losing sales to Boss 302s, but the reputation for winning races will sell plenty of GT Premiums and ZL1s and SSs.

What about GM's support for the CTS-V in sanctioned road racing??? Does that mean they're placing greater possibilities on it being a winner than the Camaro?
Whats up man? Are you gonna make it over here with that car of yours? I will be coming to the states in a few weeks, I need to do some hands on parts shopping...

Anyway, that CTS-V if fully sponsored by Cadillac. The manufacturers are split and Caddy takes full credit and pays for everything. I know GM ultimately pays for it all but Caddy's race program shouldn't have an effect on Chevrolet. I think the Corvette program takes a large chunk of the funding and factory support but not every Corvette is factory supported. The Camaro GT-R had a second place finish in Grand Am Rolex GT and that Camaro was factory backed so there might be some momentum there. For the most part, the Camaro hasn't been doing well at all in Grand Am. Stevenson had 2 wins last year in GT which one of them was a 1-2 finish in Montreal. In the GS class they had one 3rd place podium I think. I think Stevenson is pretty close to factory support if not already, they are in pretty tight with Pratt and Miller.

I originally thought that the Boss was going to be limited but, I discovered some number discrepancies between what was said to be a 4000 limit and the share of nation allocation plan. Ford said they expected to sell around 4000 initially back in November. The allocation plan went up in January and by that time, the Boss 302's were backdoored, mostly to people that were going to use them and had money in hand. They went pretty quick and I think Ford may have Job#2 or never intended on limiting them in the first place.

This is why the Z28 needs to be announced, the Camaro's primary circuit is Grand Am GT and GS. They need factory support and a production nameplate soon...

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Old 04-17-2011, 11:22 PM   #28
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Won't make it over!

Hey, Pill. I hate to admit it, but it looks like Obama has killed the budget to the point where my company may not be doing further business with DOD. I would surely love to make one more trip at least.

You're probably the smartest guy in this game of speculation. I watched the race on Saturday and it looks like the Camaro has all the speed it needs, it just can't keep tires under the car. In the continental series it looks like the Boss 302s are still the cars to beat, but the M3s look good as well. They had a great 3 or 4 lap finish on Saturday and was glad to see an American car win..even if it was a Ford! LOL.
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