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Old 05-04-2011, 09:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
I'll have to disagree, whether it's weight prevention or weight reduction, the end result is less overall weight. And we all know that less overall weight should present a greater possibility of better handling. You were incorrect on the AC, first gen. Z/28s could not be ordered with AC, auto tranny or as a vert.
Clyde
So then you would be happy with a 1SS and limiting options such as sun roof and call it a Z28? Manual only. No spare tire. Just limit the options and NOTHING more?

I'm ok with that. My beef is everyone thinking that "light weight" is part of the Zquation. It never has been. So I can only wonder why everyone seems to think the Camaro needs to lose weight. Hmmmmmmmmmmm??? Simply that the Mustang is a smaller and hence lighter car. So people are "fabricating" this light weight Z28. It never was. It may have been a "restricted" weight but that's all.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:29 AM   #36
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So then you would be happy with a 1SS and limiting options such as sun roof and call it a Z28? Manual only. No spare tire. Just limit the options and NOTHING more?

I'm ok with that. My beef is everyone thinking that "light weight" is part of the Zquation. It never has been. So I can only wonder why everyone seems to think the Camaro needs to lose weight. Hmmmmmmmmmmm??? Simply that the Mustang is a smaller and hence lighter car. So people are "fabricating" this light weight Z28. It never was. It may have been a "restricted" weight but that's all.
Well you've certainly done a bang up job of twisting what I've said into something totally different. Point one: The current 5th gen. Camaro is an inherently heavy car, I'm quite sure it would be easier to make it better handling if it weighed less. Point two: While some weight reduction is possible with the 5th gen Camaro, that weight reduction will be somewhat limited without going to extremely expensive methods of weight conservation. Point three: I've never said that ANY Z/28 was a lighter weight version of any generation Camaro, my Z/28 purchased in '69 weighed 3385 and I had to keep the dealer from installing undercoat during new car delivery prep to help keep the weight down. Most '69 SS 350 Camaros were close to that weight unless they had AC and auto tranny. I'm well aware of what Z/28s were and were not over the years. Point four: Simply a reiteration of point one, yes the current Camaro needs to lose weight regardless of what the Mustang or any other vehicle weighs, at just under two tons the 5th gen Camaro is overweight, extra weight requires more horsepower to get the same job done and generally puts more strain on every suspension component and tires. I have stated in several threads that I don't expect to see much weight loss at reasonable cost in the 5th gen Camaro, the opportunity will be much greater in the 6th gen Camaro.
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Last edited by wildpaws; 05-05-2011 at 07:31 AM. Reason: text correction
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:24 AM   #37
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So then you would be happy with a 1SS and limiting options such as sun roof and call it a Z28? Manual only. No spare tire. Just limit the options and NOTHING more?

I'm ok with that. My beef is everyone thinking that "light weight" is part of the Zquation. It never has been. So I can only wonder why everyone seems to think the Camaro needs to lose weight. Hmmmmmmmmmmm??? Simply that the Mustang is a smaller and hence lighter car. So people are "fabricating" this light weight Z28. It never was. It may have been a "restricted" weight but that's all.
Is it possible to share with us the weight of the Camaro SSX? Can you at least tell us what techniques were used or what was taken off the Camaro to reduce weight. Or did the SSX even undergo a weight loss program? I found it odd that the car was built and there was nothing really released about the SSX. I thought that maybe some specifications would have accompanied the SSX to create a little buzz about the upgrades that would be available via GMPP. I know it is incredibly difficult to reduce the weight of the Camaro in SCCA, FIA and NASA without going to a tubular frame but I was curious on how far you guys got with the SSX. Stevenson's Camaro had a race weight of 3400lbs and that was 200lbs more than the minimum... I kinda wish they could have shaved the extra weight off the car so they could at least compete in the GS class.

Do you guys communicate with the Camaro teams in the GS class or the GT class Camaro's?
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:25 PM   #38
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Well you've certainly done a bang up job of twisting what I've said into something totally different. Point one: The current 5th gen. Camaro is an inherently heavy car, I'm quite sure it would be easier to make it better handling if it weighed less. I agree, but it can't weigh less without a ton of $$$. Point two: While some weight reduction is possible with the 5th gen Camaro, that weight reduction will be somewhat limited without going to extremely expensive methods of weight conservation. You are making my point here too. Point three: I've never said that ANY Z/28 was a lighter weight version of any generation Camaro, my Z/28 purchased in '69 weighed 3385 and I had to keep the dealer from installing undercoat during new car delivery prep to help keep the weight down. Most '69 SS 350 Camaros were close to that weight unless they had AC and auto tranny. I'm well aware of what Z/28s were and were not over the years. Then you and are, in fact, on the same page here. Point four: Simply a reiteration of point one, yes the current Camaro needs to lose weight regardless of what the Mustang or any other vehicle weighs, No, no it doesn't. It is a very efficient design for what it does and is capable of. Everyone just wants it to weigh less. at just under two tons the 5th gen Camaro is overweight, No, it isn't, it's just big. extra weight requires more horsepower to get the same job done and generally puts more strain on every suspension component and tires. I have stated in several threads that I don't expect to see much weight loss at reasonable cost in the 5th gen Camaro, the opportunity will be much greater in the 6th gen Camaro. What 6th Gen?Clyde
I'm sorry if you think I'm twisting your posts. My point is simply that the Z28 in any generation was not light weighted and you seem to agree with me. But many, many on here include some mystical 200 pound weight reduction when they list what a Z28 should be. But I'm sorry, I deal with a lot of programs and mass is critical. Limiting options does not make a car lighter. Read up on what GM did to make the Cruze Eco. That was light weighting. It has different content than the base car. It wasn't done by limiting options the customer could order.

I think you and I are in violent agreement except on the point of not adding mass actually makes the car lighter. It simply make the car not as heavy as it could be. But maybe that's just ta-may-toe and toe-mah-toe.

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Is it possible to share with us the weight of the Camaro SSX? Can you at least tell us what techniques were used or what was taken off the Camaro to reduce weight. Or did the SSX even undergo a weight loss program? I found it odd that the car was built and there was nothing really released about the SSX. I thought that maybe some specifications would have accompanied the SSX to create a little buzz about the upgrades that would be available via GMPP. I know it is incredibly difficult to reduce the weight of the Camaro in SCCA, FIA and NASA without going to a tubular frame but I was curious on how far you guys got with the SSX. Stevenson's Camaro had a race weight of 3400lbs and that was 200lbs more than the minimum... I kinda wish they could have shaved the extra weight off the car so they could at least compete in the GS class.

Do you guys communicate with the Camaro teams in the GS class or the GT class Camaro's?
I haven't seen any number on mass for the SSX, Pill. But plain and simple, it's just a big car.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:45 PM   #39
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I haven't had the pleasure of being in this game for the past 30+ years like some....and so I wonder...

Was the "fix-all" weight perception as strong then as it is today?
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:07 PM   #40
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I'm sorry if you think I'm twisting your posts. My point is simply that the Z28 in any generation was not light weighted and you seem to agree with me. But many, many on here include some mystical 200 pound weight reduction when they list what a Z28 should be. But I'm sorry, I deal with a lot of programs and mass is critical. Limiting options does not make a car lighter. Read up on what GM did to make the Cruze Eco. That was light weighting. It has different content than the base car. It wasn't done by limiting options the customer could order.

I think you and I are in violent agreement except on the point of not adding mass actually makes the car lighter. It simply make the car not as heavy as it could be. But maybe that's just ta-may-toe and toe-mah-toe.
I have weight in on this in other threads. I have to disagree with you Number 3, this Generation can lose near 200 pounds. Lighter non-bling wheels would be a huge area, 18" lighter rims and tires makes the brakes and suspension work better without touching anything else. It removes the need bigger brakes, extra bracing, heavier springs and swaybars. This would keep the weight in check, now pull some sound deadening and put in better lighter seats. I would not limit options for the Z/28 in anyway, if you want to add up a bunch of needless junk to your porky Z28 go right ahead, just don't make me have to buy a Z/28 with 70# 21 inch useless wheels along with power seats and nav. I firmly believe a 3750 lbs Z/28 in base trim is doable.

To respond to earlier decussion about the early year of the Z/28. Automatics and A/C were not an option on the Z/28 until 1973, before that the engine had an RPM range just not compatable with those options.
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:40 PM   #41
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I have weight in on this in other threads. I have to disagree with you Number 3, this Generation can lose near 200 pounds. Lighter non-bling wheels would be a huge area, 18" lighter rims and tires makes the brakes and suspension work better without touching anything else. It removes the need bigger brakes, extra bracing, heavier springs and swaybars. This would keep the weight in check, now pull some sound deadening and put in better lighter seats. I would not limit options for the Z/28 in anyway, if you want to add up a bunch of needless junk to your porky Z28 go right ahead, just don't make me have to buy a Z/28 with 70# 21 inch useless wheels along with power seats and nav. I firmly believe a 3750 lbs Z/28 in base trim is doable.

To respond to earlier decussion about the early year of the Z/28. Automatics and A/C were not an option on the Z/28 until 1973, before that the engine had an RPM range just not compatable with those options.
TH400 transmissions in 1970 and yes no AC until 1973 when the lifter change took place. (Mech. to Hyd.)
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Old 05-07-2011, 12:33 AM   #42
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The Boss is almost 3,700 lbs yet it puts up some supercar numbers. Skidpad, slalom, and braking are unbelievable. Look at the lastest comparisons in June's Road and Track magazine.

I'm ready (for a Z28) are you GM!

And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the wheels bigger on the Boss LS?!

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Old 05-08-2011, 09:23 PM   #43
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I have weight in on this in other threads. I have to disagree with you Number 3, this Generation can lose near 200 pounds. Lighter non-bling wheels would be a huge area, 18" lighter rims and tires makes the brakes and suspension work better without touching anything else. It removes the need bigger brakes, extra bracing, heavier springs and swaybars. This would keep the weight in check, now pull some sound deadening and put in better lighter seats. I would not limit options for the Z/28 in anyway, if you want to add up a bunch of needless junk to your porky Z28 go right ahead, just don't make me have to buy a Z/28 with 70# 21 inch useless wheels along with power seats and nav. I firmly believe a 3750 lbs Z/28 in base trim is doable
What number 3 said was on the basis of the benefit/cost concept.

Lighter wheels are a great possibility. Say you save 15 lbs per corner with lighter 18" wheels for a total of 60 lbs overall, and the seats MIGHT save 40 lbs because they'll still need to be crash-test compliant seats.....but you can't lose the brakes. Not if you want a track car, and to my knowledge there's not a whole lot of "extra" bracing in the SSs...the sways won't be much effected, because for a track-focused car they'll need to be stiffer (aka thicker)...

200lbs is darn near impossible to do at any reasonable price and STILL pass internal validation tests.

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The Boss is almost 3,700 lbs yet it puts up some supercar numbers. Skidpad, slalom, and braking are unbelievable. Look at the lastest comparisons in June's Road and Track magazine.
Someone's been bitten by the Ford bug....
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:34 PM   #44
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TH400 transmissions in 1970 and yes no AC until 1973 when the lifter change took place. (Mech. to Hyd.)
Sorry about that, I knew that too.......DOH!

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What number 3 said was on the basis of the benefit/cost concept.

Lighter wheels are a great possibility. Say you save 15 lbs per corner with lighter 18" wheels for a total of 60 lbs overall, and the seats MIGHT save 40 lbs because they'll still need to be crash-test compliant seats.....but you can't lose the brakes. Not if you want a track car, and to my knowledge there's not a whole lot of "extra" bracing in the SSs...the sways won't be much effected, because for a track-focused car they'll need to be stiffer (aka thicker)...

200lbs is darn near impossible to do at any reasonable price and STILL pass internal validation tests.



Someone's been bitten by the Ford bug....
Take your Ford bug and stuff it, I am about making the Z/28 a performance car not and fat pig! I apprechate Ford for doing it right on weight and will call out GM (and Chrysler) for getting it WRONG on weight. Why do you think GM spends so much keeping the weight of the Corvette in check at about 3200 lb, would have not made it alot cheaper to just throw the LS9 at the standard Corvette. Of course then you would have ended up with a 3500 lb Corvette by the time all the things that would have been needed to make a fat Corvette work like the ZR1 does. Can you read? I never said to remove the 4 piston Brembos, just that if you pull weight out of the Camaro then the Brembos on the SS will work more efficently and negate the need to put on bigger heavier 6 piston brembos (would make the Z/28 more buyer friendly too) from the CTS-V. I worked with a famous Corvette and Camaro racer from the 1960's, you know what the biggest point to watch out for on a performance car?.......WEIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 05-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #45
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What number 3 said was on the basis of the benefit/cost concept.

Lighter wheels are a great possibility. Say you save 15 lbs per corner with lighter 18" wheels for a total of 60 lbs overall, and the seats MIGHT save 40 lbs because they'll still need to be crash-test compliant seats.....but you can't lose the brakes. Not if you want a track car, and to my knowledge there's not a whole lot of "extra" bracing in the SSs...the sways won't be much effected, because for a track-focused car they'll need to be stiffer (aka thicker)...

200lbs is darn near impossible to do at any reasonable price and STILL pass internal validation tests.



Someone's been bitten by the Ford bug....
Yes for that kind of performance at $40K it's bit me good, but I'm a Camaro guy. So the only fix is a Boss competitor. I'll call it a Uh um Z28!
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:59 PM   #46
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I would think a 3600 pound Z28 would be possible.

Would you pay $75,000 for it?
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:08 PM   #47
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I would think a 3600 pound Z28 would be possible.

Would you pay $75,000 for it?
No and No
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:01 PM   #48
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Take your Ford bug and stuff it.....Can you read?.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmm...somebody needs a:

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Old 06-22-2011, 02:56 PM   #49
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I think the closest we'll get to a Z/28 in the 5th Gen is a 1SS with full ZL1 suspension and exhaust. Find a way to incorporate a cold air type intake on the LS3 and advertise the power at 440 - 450hp. Manual only. No RS or sunroof.
Further weight reduction would be found in lighter weight wheels and hood.


IF GM could crack 3799 for curb weight it would be a very nice package and worthy of Z28 heritage. Not to mention profitable since this package is mostly current Camaro parts.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:19 PM   #50
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Why no RS?
The 1Gen had the RS package. I really like the sound of "Z28 Rally Sport".
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:10 PM   #51
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Further weigh could be reduced by offering the stability control as an option. That way; you save $$$$ and weigh if you do not need it. But I feel that most people drive into the ditch without it on the track. They just not that good!
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