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Old 05-04-2011, 09:27 AM   #26
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great job Camaro
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:28 AM   #27
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Oshawa

There are two separate lines in Oshawa...Consolidated Line produces Equinox and Impala's running 3 shifts.....Flex Line produces Camaro and Regal on a 2 shift operation......vert/coupe ratio close to 50/50..V8 seems to be picking up ....surprisingly ...since gas prices have shot up
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:55 AM   #28
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Out of curiosity Pill, why do you think so many people are still special ordering Camaros? I would think that the percentage of people ordering from the factory would be almost insignificant at this point.
It's our god given right to order a brand new car. When you go into a store and buy a new TV, furniture or anything for that matter... We never want the floor model... Give it to us in the box. Same thing applies to new car sales and that is the smart way to buy. Only the last in line or deal seekers will take a floor model home, special orders "should" be the majority of these cars sales (Mustang, Corvette, Chally included). Pre-orders are also considered special orders too.. If the product isn't available yet, we can order them the way we want... If I am paying over $20,000 for a new car, I will always order it from the catalog... I will never pick it from the lot. I am willing to pay the little extra if I need to. If you look around on this forum, you will see that a large majority ordered the car special and took delivery.... that's just the way it is.

These cars are more than just transportation, If I wanted a Fiesta because I really needed a car and wasn't into being raped on rental fees.. I would walk in and buy one. These vehicles are status vehicles, regardless of the engine size, just as I wouldn't want a floor model leather couch in my living room, I wouldn't want a test vehicle in my driveway.

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Old 05-04-2011, 12:15 PM   #29
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There are two separate lines in Oshawa...Consolidated Line produces Equinox and Impala's running 3 shifts.....Flex Line produces Camaro and Regal on a 2 shift operation......vert/coupe ratio close to 50/50..V8 seems to be picking up ....surprisingly ...since gas prices have shot up
Thanks bro, I figured close to 50/50. Again, thanks for the info.. and keep them rollin'
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:11 PM   #30
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Either my dealer is building inventory for the Summer or we are going to see some incentives soon. He has 26 Camaros!
But the Camaro did whip up on the Mustang pretty badly.
Might we see a 12,000 or even 15,000 sales month next year?
I hope we see those numbers this month.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:20 PM   #31
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Didn't someone say a few years ago that the business case was made for the Camaro if it could sell 100,000 a year? I just noticed on the graph that is about what it is doing. Perhaps Chevy is carefully watching sales rates, production and incentives to make sure it doesn't drop below 100K per 12 month period?

Camaro must be a cash cow for Gm right now and should easily pay for all the development and tooling on time.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #32
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I just noticed in the YTD graph that Camaro has already sold 7000 more than Mustang in just the first 4 months of the year. If that rate continues then it will beat the Mustang by 21,000!!! And the Mustang has incnetives and the Camaro very little if any!
Since the 1st Camaro was sold in April 2009 19,000 more Camaros have been sold than Mustangs. So by the end of the year it might very will be 40,000 more Camaros total.
It is clear that the Camaro is increasing it's sales lead with each passing month.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:53 PM   #33
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Didn't someone say a few years ago that the business case was made for the Camaro if it could sell 100,000 a year? I just noticed on the graph that is about what it is doing. Perhaps Chevy is carefully watching sales rates, production and incentives to make sure it doesn't drop below 100K per 12 month period?

Camaro must be a cash cow for Gm right now and should easily pay for all the development and tooling on time.
Bob Lutz insinuated that the Camaro program would need to move approximately 90k units a year to be profitable, although that comment is so old now I'm not sure I could find any good references even if I looked.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:56 PM   #34
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Well done Team Camaro!!

And FYI, I believe it was very early last year (March I think?) that GM announced that the Camaro was offically making a profit. Essentially the first model year was spent mostly recovering losses involved in initial startup and tooling. Everything since then has been profit.
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:00 PM   #35
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Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:28 PM   #36
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Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.

That is an interesting point. It is possbile that people were buying Mustangs simply becase there was nothing else to buy during the Camaro/Trans Am/Chally "void" period, unless of course you wanted to pick up a Vette.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:16 PM   #37
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It's amazing (and awesome) how well the Camaro is doing. To have sales this strong(and growing) is a sign of how great a job they did making the car.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:16 PM   #38
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, but not many seen on the roads yet..hopefully the aftermarket goodies increase as well..
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:57 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan View Post
Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.
All good points being made. I get tired of hearing every month, excuses why the Camaro won "that" month...getting old. They have basically outsold since released, and yes, it has surprised me (because of historic data). It is never mentioned the fact that Mustang is definitely the entrenched dog, with a following ump-teen times larger than Camaro's, and that is worth huge volumes of their car sales...but yet they are still being outsold and had to drop a production shift; and not only are more neutral buyers choosing Camaro's but obviously with Mustang sales drastically down, tsome of heir buyers have switched as well.
We sold our Mustang vert and got a Camaro vert...my fiancee every now and then reminds me how glad she is I made the switch for her; she absolutely loves the car. She just laughs at all the times with drive thru attendants, gas stations, stop lights, etc, people comment on our car...she says that hardly ever happened with her Stang. As mentioned, it really isn't even debateable how much better looking the Camaro is...general, unbiased street comments prove it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:01 PM   #40
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... it really isn't even debateable how much better looking the Camaro is...general, unbiased street comments prove it.


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Old 05-04-2011, 10:21 PM   #41
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WOOOO!!!!!

Summer's a 'comin.....let the convertible's free, and watch the sales rise higher!!!!
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:10 AM   #42
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The sales of the 2005 Mustang were huge, there were 166,000 sold in the US alone and another 160,000 sold in 2006. It was originally projected that the Camaro would sell 150,000 in its first year but went on to sell about 60,000. The best case scenario for GM would be that the current sales trend continues and GM would not be forced to redesign the Camaro until 2016 for a MY17 Camaro. That would give the 5th Gen a solid 7 year production run and R&D would definitely be paid off and additional profits could be used for the 6th Gen as well. Reality though, will see the sales begin to dip during this year. 10,000 units is good for the current situation and the convertible was responsible for that and incentives will pick up very soon to help mitigate that natural sales dip. The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much. The fact that I can get a 2012 Premium GT with 3.73's, Brembo's and 401a leather for $33,000 is very attractive... If I didn't own a 2011, I would be buying a 2012...

Whether or not GM decides to take the Camaro out to 2017 will depend on the sales boom the 2014 Mustang creates. If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. If GM can wait... they should.. Then there is the 2013 Mustang refresh... I believe that the 2013 model year will be a long one, 16 months in fact, so a minor refresh will help... Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:33 PM   #43
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The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much.
If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:49 PM   #44
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Of those delivered, how many were CONVERTIBLES?
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #45
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The sales of the 2005 Mustang were huge, there were 166,000 sold in the US alone and another 160,000 sold in 2006. It was originally projected that the Camaro would sell 150,000 in its first year but went on to sell about 60,000. The best case scenario for GM would be that the current sales trend continues and GM would not be forced to redesign the Camaro until 2016 for a MY17 Camaro. That would give the 5th Gen a solid 7 year production run and R&D would definitely be paid off and additional profits could be used for the 6th Gen as well. Reality though, will see the sales begin to dip during this year. 10,000 units is good for the current situation and the convertible was responsible for that and incentives will pick up very soon to help mitigate that natural sales dip. The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much. The fact that I can get a 2012 Premium GT with 3.73's, Brembo's and 401a leather for $33,000 is very attractive... If I didn't own a 2011, I would be buying a 2012...

Whether or not GM decides to take the Camaro out to 2017 will depend on the sales boom the 2014 Mustang creates. If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. If GM can wait... they should.. Then there is the 2013 Mustang refresh... I believe that the 2013 model year will be a long one, 16 months in fact, so a minor refresh will help... Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Wait...does that include Brembo's on front AND rear?
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #46
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Thanks for the data, and "thePill" for the extra commentary as well.

I would love to see this done as a stacked bar chart delineating the breakdown of coups and verts for both the 'stang and the Camaro, but it doesn't look like that data is easily accessible, and I don't think spasticsquirrel is that reliable for total counts, just trends. I can never get it to work for too much granularity for me anyway.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:33 PM   #47
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*checking URL....*


Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:12 AM   #48
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Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.

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Old 05-06-2011, 04:30 AM   #49
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Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
Sorry for all the Mustang talk, for some reason I cannot stop talking about them...
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:26 PM   #50
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The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.
I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
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