Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
autoguy
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions

5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions General 5th generation Camaro topics not covered by other subforums.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-07-2011, 05:17 AM   #51
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by PYROLYSIS View Post
I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
No offense taken, but you do realize that the Ecoboost and GM's Ecotech engines will be hot sellers right? There is a large market for fuel efficient sport coupes. Take the 1 series and 3 series BMW's for example, the 1 series outsells the 3 series on a 3 to 1 ratio here in Europe. The Ecoboost Mustang will be a HUGE seller and so will the Ecotech Camaro when it arrives 2016-2017. Thinking that the 5th Gen Camaro sales will still be just as strong in 2014 is wishful thinking but I only hope that they can maintain throughout the last couple of years. Sales of the Camaro during Q4 2010 and January 2011 were very low. Now that can be accredited to seasonal trends but those seasonal trends had a very small effect on the 5th gen during the first year. The Camaro's sales will be that of the Mustang's are now, strong through the spring/summer and non existent throughout the fall and winter. Most of that sales decline has to do with Ford's production, Ford only produces Mustang's at capacity during 3 of the 4 quarters of the year.

By 2014, The 5th Gen Camaro's sales will be at the lowest during its model life and will need a refresh to help with sales. There is a big possibility that the 5th Gen won't even make it to where the S197 has as far a model life goes. The S197 will be almost 10 years old when it leaves production, that is incredible for an automobile today and it still manages strong spring/summer sales. The S197 will be close to one million sales when it leaves the fleet, something that the 5th Gen Camaro cannot replicate. As of today, the Camaro has sold just as many units as the Mustang sold in 2005 alone, I know the market has changed and it will change again when Ford redefines the Pony Car market in 2014. The reality is, the Eco 4 cylinders will carry the pony car market into the next generation and any Eco pony car will dominate the segment... the question is, how long can GM hold out on the 5th Gen while pent up demand for a new lightweight economy/performance sport coupe is available... and as the market slowly changes into whatever the Mustang becomes. I hope that the 5th Gen Camaro can survive until 2017...

Last edited by thePill; 05-07-2011 at 07:30 AM.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 10:40 AM   #52
5thGenOwner

 
Drives: 20TEN SS/RS L99 (SIM)
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
As of today, the Camaro has sold just as many units as the Mustang sold in 2005 alone, I know the market has changed and it will change again when Ford redefines the Pony Car market in 2014. The reality is, the Eco 4 cylinders will carry the pony car market into the next generation and any Eco pony car will dominate the segment... the question is, how long can GM hold out on the 5th Gen while pent up demand for a new lightweight economy/performance sport coupe is available... and as the market slowly changes into whatever the Mustang becomes. I hope that the 5th Gen Camaro can survive until 2017...
First, you say "I know the market has changed" as if some minor event happened. A total collapse of the world banking system like we've never seen before (and it's not over). Life is different on this side of 2008! Also, Ford had no competition in 2005, and with the revamped style... it gave those who have been dying for a real American made muscle car a reason to go out and buy one. (I personally loved it when they 'fixed' everything that was wrong with the ugly mustang... best thing on the road from 2005 to 2007 until the Challenger came out.) Ford's timing was perfect! Unfortunately they ruined the style again with the changes they made in 2010, and if not for the release of the 5.0... sales would have continued to plummet.

Second, Eco 4 cylinder pony car? Isn't that an oxymoron? (stress on the moron part) If pony/muscle cars go that direction, they are going to lose their current customer base (enthusiasts). Just the thought of eliminating the V-8 has some trembling in their britches. Maybe they will pick up a new customer base, but i seriously doubt it, these automobiles are a fortune to insure and there are many other "Eco-friendly" cars that won't break the bank. Ford can sell all the eco-crap they want, but I would argue that is not, and never will be, the market for these automobiles; if they want to cut their own throat... fine by me. Lets hope there is never an eco-camaro!

Finally, it looks as though GM is fully understanding their customer base. People who want a Camaro, want something unique... something their own. GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months, breathing new life into the Camaro every year! Instead of trying to target outside of their market, they are tying to attract as much of the market as they can... knowing that it is a limited market. I believe you even proved this in a previous post... the market for these cars is limited, and when one manufacturer gains customers, the others lose. GM is increasing their share of the market, while Ford is losing. (facts are facts)
__________________

Last edited by 5thGenOwner; 05-07-2011 at 10:56 AM.
5thGenOwner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 11:01 AM   #53
PercyJWellingtonIII
Account Suspended
 
Drives: pontiac
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Md
Posts: 1,512
I own Stock in GM. Thanks Guys! Keep on buying!
PercyJWellingtonIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 03:40 PM   #54
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner View Post
First, you say "I know the market has changed" as if some minor event happened. A total collapse of the world banking system like we've never seen before (and it's not over). Life is different on this side of 2008! Also, Ford had no competition in 2005, and with the revamped style... it gave those who have been dying for a real American made muscle car a reason to go out and buy one. (I personally loved it when they 'fixed' everything that was wrong with the ugly mustang... best thing on the road from 2005 to 2007 until the Challenger came out.) Ford's timing was perfect! Unfortunately they ruined the style again with the changes they made in 2010, and if not for the release of the 5.0... sales would have continued to plummet.
I would argue that the 2010+ Mustang's styling bad, for the most part, the 2010+ Mustang's took the S197 into a more modern look. It was the refresh that finally got me to commit because although it was more of a modern approach, it reminded me of the 67-69 Mustangs.

Ford had no competition in 2005 and that was partially the reason they sold huge amounts of the new car. The more they sold then, the less they will sell now.. Just as the 1964-66 Mustangs sold large quantities, when the Camaro came out in 1967, the Mustang's sales dropped... but the profits were already made. By the time the '69 Mustang came out, Ford was only selling a fraction of what they had been, same with the Camaro... sales were down across the board.

Since the Camaro was released in 2009, the Mustang's sales have doubled, some of that has to do with the mid-model refresh, some of that is the engine (both V6 and V8) and some of that is just interest in the market. Last month, 12,000 consumers thought that the Camaro didn't look good enough, didn't perform good enough and was too expensive to buy. Looks are subjective, if the Camaro did in fact look the best, then the Camaro would have sold 22,000 cars last month... I personally did not like the Camaro enough to buy it in 2009 based on looks, I loved the performance... but the car bothered me from certain angles.
Quote:
Second, Eco 4 cylinder pony car? Isn't that an oxymoron? (stress on the moron part) If pony/muscle cars go that direction, they are going to lose their current customer base (enthusiasts). Just the thought of eliminating the V-8 has some trembling in their britches. Maybe they will pick up a new customer base, but i seriously doubt it, these automobiles are a fortune to insure and there are many other "Eco-friendly" cars that won't break the bank. Ford can sell all the eco-crap they want, but I would argue that is not, and never will be, the market for these automobiles; if they want to cut their own throat... fine by me. Lets hope there is never an eco-camaro!
What made a pony car wasn't about a massive V8, it wasn't even really about horsepower, it was about fun. These cars were daily drivers, race cars, show cars, family cars... affordable cars. While the "muscle cars" went the way of the dinosaurs, the pony car adapted and overcame government regulation, customer demand, generation styling and a fuel crisis. What your saying is that if Pony cars go in that direction that they will lose their current customer base? Their current customer base is changing, the enthusiast that have stuck with these cars make up less than 1% of the entire buyers that purchase them. Ford and GM need to open the door to a new consumer and our Eco engines will allow that to happen. There will always be a V8 Mustang/Camaro, but make no mistake about it, when Ford equips the Mustang III with a 275hp, Ecoboost 2.0 and Mustang sales triple if not more... GM will be close behind with their Ecotech 2.0/2,2. This is the future of our pony cars, ask yourself, what happened to the "muscle cars" of the 60's when they refused to adjust to the situation and stay true to the 1% of their dedicated enthusiast?

I never said that the V8 would be eliminated, but the base models would be made to appeal to a broader market... A market that will bring more than just the 1% of enthusiast, the type of consumers that want a car that is fun and easy to live with. GM can continue to just offer the V6 and V8, they are free to do that... but remember, the Mustang's sales numbers will be as high, if not higher than the current economy base cars today. Who wouldn't want a fun, fast and affordable sports coupe that gets fantastic fuel mileage with almost unlimited options? This is how these cars survived when so many others have died... because they were fun...

Quote:
Finally, it looks as though GM is fully understanding their customer base. People who want a Camaro, want something unique... something their own. GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months, breathing new life into the Camaro every year! Instead of trying to target outside of their market, they are tying to attract as much of the market as they can... knowing that it is a limited market. I believe you even proved this in a previous post... the market for these cars is limited, and when one manufacturer gains customers, the others lose. GM is increasing their share of the market, while Ford is losing. (facts are facts
GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months to sustain sales, not to answer the bases needs. If they were listening to their customer base then there would be a 2012 Z28. The limited edition cars is something that Ford has been doing for years. It is to sustain sales and maintain excitement, those Camaro's will be nothing more than a body kit and decal job. Right now GM has about 45% of the market and that is because of the convertible being released. Sales of the Camaro were just as awful at the end of last year. Think about it, this market SUCKS right now... there were only 22,000 pony cars sold last month. Ford is losing market share because Ford reentered this particular market 8 years ago. Ford can't possibly maintain a sales lead after selling 750,000+ S197 Mustangs, who can they possibly sell cars to? A majority of those 750,000 Mustang were no doubt sold second hand, and some of those second hand Mustang's were sold again. It's highly likely that almost 2 million people have owned a 2005-2012 Mustang at some point.. but Ford somehow sells new Mustang's month over month. Ford saturated the market years ago and the aftermarket is where Ford makes a lot of money from the Mustang. Did you know that Ford makes more money in the aftermarket S197 program than GM does with the new car sales of the 2010-2011 Camaro? When I say aftermarket, I don't mean superchargers and stuff, it could be OEM replacements and repair work as well. The 2014 Mustang will alter the pony car market again and there is a 99.9999% chance that GM follows. This means that there will be Ecoboost and Ecotech pony cars... and I know for a fact that the tuner aftermarket is very, very excited...

Last edited by thePill; 05-07-2011 at 04:04 PM.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 04:43 PM   #55
b4z

 
Drives: '06 Pontiac GTO M6, '09 V8 SRX RWD
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,217
Ford's Eco Boost 3.5L is more boost than Eco.
I have a feeling that GM's 3.6L twin turbo would be the same.
Just don't thiink the fuel savings are that much unless they make a decision to gear them tall.
b4z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 05:33 PM   #56
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4z View Post
Ford's Eco Boost 3.5L is more boost than Eco.
I have a feeling that GM's 3.6L twin turbo would be the same.
Just don't thiink the fuel savings are that much unless they make a decision to gear them tall.
Those are the V6 Ecoboost/Ecotech engines, they will probably find a home in the Mustang III and 6th Gen. I am talking about the base 2.0 Inline 4 cylinder engines that both Ford and GM have. They produce between 275-300hp and achieve 30-35+mpg. I am seriously considering my first convertible being an Ecoboost 2.0 Mustang III...
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:06 PM   #57
Axe
 
Axe's Avatar
 
Drives: have not ordered yet
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: poconos,pa
Posts: 183
Hey, the new Mustangs a great car. But bottom line - park em both in a parking lot, and nobody notices the Mustang.
Axe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 01:45 AM   #58
WySilverado
 
WySilverado's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 RS/SS Camaro M6 Synergy Green
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Powell Wy
Posts: 138
3 pages of excuses of why the Mustang is getting beat in Sales,um..... My guess is because a few thousand people thought the Camaro is a nicer car. Seems pretty simple to Me and only took one paragraph.
WySilverado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 05:11 AM   #59
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
395,000 pony cars have been sold since April 2009... 222,000 of those sale were not Camaros and is far more than the majority. 55% of new car buyers chose to buy the competitions offerings and putting them side buy side in a parking lot (almost as they were sold on the lot) would see almost a 50/50 split between the two... add in the Challenger and the numbers would be smaller. That is until the Mustang III comes out and then Ford will reclaim a majority of the market again and attract the most attention... This is natural for a new product and claiming 45% of the market is really good... it just isn't permanent...

Edit: The ZL1 will not make a very big dent in the sales. By the time the ZL1 is released the sales numbers of the Camaro will be back down to the 5000-6000 average if not lower. The ZL1 will increase the monthly sales by 5-10%.... 10% is being generous and assumes that there will be close to 10,000 2012 ZL1's produced over a 6 month period. I believe that there will only be about 3000-5000 2012 ZL1's produced. Those 3000-4000 units would be taken directly from the regular production numbers and could easily be managed in 6 months without affecting regular production.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 08:40 AM   #60
Tallboy
Say "when"...
 
Tallboy's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 2LT
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Venice, FL
Posts: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
395,000 pony cars have been sold since April 2009... 222,000 of those sale were not Camaros and is far more than the majority. 55% of new car buyers chose to buy the competitions offerings and putting them side buy side in a parking lot (almost as they were sold on the lot) would see almost a 50/50 split between the two... add in the Challenger and the numbers would be smaller. That is until the Mustang III comes out and then Ford will reclaim a majority of the market again and attract the most attention... This is natural for a new product and claiming 45% of the market is really good... it just isn't permanent...

Edit: The ZL1 will not make a very big dent in the sales. By the time the ZL1 is released the sales numbers of the Camaro will be back down to the 5000-6000 average if not lower. The ZL1 will increase the monthly sales by 5-10%.... 10% is being generous and assumes that there will be close to 10,000 2012 ZL1's produced over a 6 month period. I believe that there will only be about 3000-5000 2012 ZL1's produced. Those 3000-4000 units would be taken directly from the regular production numbers and could easily be managed in 6 months without affecting regular production.
And over 240,000 weren't Mustangs. Using your parameters, the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang.
Tallboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 09:51 AM   #61
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
And over 240,000 weren't Mustangs. Using your parameters, the Camaro is a better car than the Mustang.
That is true, but the argument is that the Camaro is sweeping the market on looks alone. Just comparing last months Camaro sales to the Mustang's would be a better formula for comparison. The Mustang still controls 39% of the market after 8 years of sales and even that still confuses me. Its not going to get any better for the Mustang from here on out, it's all about sustaining sales at this point.

I will argue that the Camaro is a better car hands down and I'm sure that will upset some people. It depends on what makes the car a better car... To some it would be sales volume and the volumes of sales for the Mustang happened way before the Camaro was even thought of. Some would say that performance is primarily the key factor when comparing cars. Then you have cost and quality and as subjective as looks are, that is another factor in which cars are said to be "better". I personally give the Mustang the performance edge, on average the Mustang is about $1500 dollars cheaper, each of the cars have their quality issues and the 5th Gen didn't win me over in the looks department when I tested one in 2009. So, I will lean to sales to determine if it is "better".

If the Camaro wasn't outselling the Mustang right now it would be a very bad situation. The Camaro is only 2 years old and sales actually peaked last spring for the coupe and then declined almost 50% in the fall and winter. With the introduction of the convertible, sales returned back to the spring 2010 sales numbers but sure enough, the numbers will return back to normal late summer and on into 2012. Right now, the brand new Camaro convertible is making up about 50% of sales and was strategically released to sustain sales... if it wasn't for the strategic release of the convertible.. the Mustang may have very well been the sales leader this month. Typically, convertible's are not a very big seller. Ford only sold 15,703 2011 Mustang's combined, this includes the 9,645 V6's, the 5,126 5.0 GT's and the 932 GT500's. The Mustang convertible initially accounted for almost 30% of Mustang's sold in 2005. At that time, 1 out of every 2 sports coupes/sports cars sold in the US was a Mustang. Now, the Mustang convertible is down to about 21% production volume... another example of the more successful a product sales in the beginning, the less it will sell tomorrow...
http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/v...erience_id=957

240,000 people chose not to buy a Mustang and elected to buy another pony car since April 2009... but, almost 800,000 people have already purchased a S197 new since 2005. Most of those 800,000 Mustang's were undoubtedly sold by their original owners and perhaps another percentage were sold again... making the S197 Mustang pretty circulated automobile. It's still pretty early to tell but it is safe to assume that the 5th Gen Camaro will never reach the sales volume that the S197 Mustang did. Even if GM decided to push the 5th gen Camaro out to 2017, at the rate of current sales, the 5th gen Camaro will not sell even half of what the S197 did. Ford will be capitalizing from the S197 sales for another decade in the aftermarket. This is something GM has to consider when the Alpha steps on deck, should they prematurely end the life of the 5th gen Camaro just to chase the Mustang III? or should they tough it out and build an aftermarket around the LS3/L99?

Regardless, sales are a factor when determining superiority. Right now, the Camaro and Mustang are about 54/46 in sales since the Camaro came back April 2009. Even though there were 675,000 Mustangs on the streets when the first Camaro was sold, I don't think it is fair to ignore those sales. Every statistic is centered around the Camaro's release date and has a negative effect on the Mustang and Challengers numbers. I don't think the competition should be made to look like fools because the Camaro couldn't stay in production... Is it fair that the Camaro wasn't around between 2005 and 2009? No... but I sure the hell are not going to pat them on the back for it...
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 11:26 AM   #62
5thGenOwner

 
Drives: 20TEN SS/RS L99 (SIM)
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I would argue that the 2010+ Mustang's styling bad, for the most part, the 2010+ Mustang's took the S197 into a more modern look. It was the refresh that finally got me to commit because although it was more of a modern approach, it reminded me of the 67-69 Mustangs.

Ford had no competition in 2005 and that was partially the reason they sold huge amounts of the new car. The more they sold then, the less they will sell now.. Just as the 1964-66 Mustangs sold large quantities, when the Camaro came out in 1967, the Mustang's sales dropped... but the profits were already made. By the time the '69 Mustang came out, Ford was only selling a fraction of what they had been, same with the Camaro... sales were down across the board.

Since the Camaro was released in 2009, the Mustang's sales have doubled, some of that has to do with the mid-model refresh, some of that is the engine (both V6 and V8) and some of that is just interest in the market. Last month, 12,000 consumers thought that the Camaro didn't look good enough, didn't perform good enough and was too expensive to buy. Looks are subjective, if the Camaro did in fact look the best, then the Camaro would have sold 22,000 cars last month... I personally did not like the Camaro enough to buy it in 2009 based on looks, I loved the performance... but the car bothered me from certain angles.
My bet would be... a good percent of those 12k who didn't purchase the Camaro (but bought the Mustang) was due specifically to $. Ford has better incentives, promotions and advertising (and there is a reason big corporations spend millions upon millions on advertising). GM is riding the back of the enthusiasts and movie goers... there have been almost no incentives or promotions for the Camaro. And if you see an ad for a Camaro, it is rare. If GM would drop some Ford-type incentives, i bet they could pick up a good bit of those sales.

This is a debate of opinions since there are not figures on why people picked one over the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post

What made a pony car wasn't about a massive V8, it wasn't even really about horsepower, it was about fun. These cars were daily drivers, race cars, show cars, family cars... affordable cars. While the "muscle cars" went the way of the dinosaurs, the pony car adapted and overcame government regulation, customer demand, generation styling and a fuel crisis. What your saying is that if Pony cars go in that direction that they will lose their current customer base? Their current customer base is changing, the enthusiast that have stuck with these cars make up less than 1% of the entire buyers that purchase them. Ford and GM need to open the door to a new consumer and our Eco engines will allow that to happen. There will always be a V8 Mustang/Camaro, but make no mistake about it, when Ford equips the Mustang III with a 275hp, Ecoboost 2.0 and Mustang sales triple if not more... GM will be close behind with their Ecotech 2.0/2,2. This is the future of our pony cars, ask yourself, what happened to the "muscle cars" of the 60's when they refused to adjust to the situation and stay true to the 1% of their dedicated enthusiast?

I never said that the V8 would be eliminated, but the base models would be made to appeal to a broader market... A market that will bring more than just the 1% of enthusiast, the type of consumers that want a car that is fun and easy to live with. GM can continue to just offer the V6 and V8, they are free to do that... but remember, the Mustang's sales numbers will be as high, if not higher than the current economy base cars today. Who wouldn't want a fun, fast and affordable sports coupe that gets fantastic fuel mileage with almost unlimited options? This is how these cars survived when so many others have died... because they were fun...
I agree with "Fun", but fun is a general term... it has to come from somewhere... it wasn't Fun like a Ford Fiesta fun, or fun like a VW beetle fun... it was fun because it could burn up the track with little or no modifications. It was fun because it wasn't a little tiny sports car but could put out figures that made people call it a sports car.

Your assumptions are that the Market will widen with the eco-4 cyl., that people that currently drive Prius' will say "hey... i want a mustang because it gets the same gas milage." I don't think that is true. These cars are symbols that Eco people hate, no matter how eco-friendly you make it. That will never change, and I just don't see the market for these cars growing. There are too many other options out there if Fuel Efficiency is your concern.

"The day they make a hybrid Camaro is the day Fun died!"

Again, more a debate of opinion since we are talking about the future which isn't here yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post

GM is releasing limited editions every 6 months to sustain sales, not to answer the bases needs. If they were listening to their customer base then there would be a 2012 Z28. The limited edition cars is something that Ford has been doing for years. It is to sustain sales and maintain excitement, those Camaro's will be nothing more than a body kit and decal job. Right now GM has about 45% of the market and that is because of the convertible being released. Sales of the Camaro were just as awful at the end of last year. Think about it, this market SUCKS right now... there were only 22,000 pony cars sold last month. Ford is losing market share because Ford reentered this particular market 8 years ago. Ford can't possibly maintain a sales lead after selling 750,000+ S197 Mustangs, who can they possibly sell cars to? A majority of those 750,000 Mustang were no doubt sold second hand, and some of those second hand Mustang's were sold again. It's highly likely that almost 2 million people have owned a 2005-2012 Mustang at some point.. but Ford somehow sells new Mustang's month over month. Ford saturated the market years ago and the aftermarket is where Ford makes a lot of money from the Mustang. Did you know that Ford makes more money in the aftermarket S197 program than GM does with the new car sales of the 2010-2011 Camaro? When I say aftermarket, I don't mean superchargers and stuff, it could be OEM replacements and repair work as well. The 2014 Mustang will alter the pony car market again and there is a 99.9999% chance that GM follows. This means that there will be Ecoboost and Ecotech pony cars... and I know for a fact that the tuner aftermarket is very, very excited...
And finally... you say "to-mae-toe", i say "to-ma-toe". Limited edition, unique... that is what this base customer wants. Yes indeed, it keeps the Camaro in the headlines every 6 months... but just look at all the Camaros on the road, almost every one is modified because they wanted it personalized, rare, unique, etc. If i'm just buying a car (a general customer), limited edition isn't going to sway me. But if i'm bying a car i've always desired (a base customer) limited edition may be my hook-in-mouth.

As far as the Z28... no one said it isn't still in the works. Probably on the next platform, when they change... since the Z28 is the 'track' Camaro it will be lighter then and better for the Z28 moniker. The ZL1 answered the call for a GT500 challenger, that was also a call from the customers. It has always been painful to see a GT500 blow away any Camaro. It will not enhance sales that much as you point out... so it has to be for the enthusiasts, period (just as the GT500 is). I like that they didn't call the ZL1 a Z28... it just wouldn't have been right.

This debate of opinions could go on forever, and has. You've got a pretty sharp Mustang, I've got a sexy Camaro. I don't think either will force the other out (again) if both companies continue to put in their heart and soul into it as they are currently!
__________________
5thGenOwner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 03:08 PM   #63
thePill
Account Suspended
 
Drives: '11 Mustang GT Premium
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kaiserslauthern, Germany
Posts: 1,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner View Post
My bet would be... a good percent of those 12k who didn't purchase the Camaro (but bought the Mustang) was due specifically to $. Ford has better incentives, promotions and advertising (and there is a reason big corporations spend millions upon millions on advertising). GM is riding the back of the enthusiasts and movie goers... there have been almost no incentives or promotions for the Camaro. And if you see an ad for a Camaro, it is rare. If GM would drop some Ford-type incentives, i bet they could pick up a good bit of those sales.
First off, great post!!! I love counter post with substance... Now, I am willing to bet that incentives played a large roll on the Mustang side. There is always at least a $1500 dollar cash back on Mustang's regardless of the model year. Dealer incentives are hard to keep track of but I would wager that those dealer incentives could possibly met the factory incentives dollar for dollar if not more. Dealers only pay about $25,000 for a Premium GT so they have a lot of wiggle room before they start to lose profit. On the other hand, the customers who went with the Challenger are not receiving any incentives as far as I know and the MSRP is much higher then the entry level and loaded GT and SS. Assuming that deal seekers specifically chose the Mustang for incentives and the other 40% of the Pony Car marketeer's that purchased the more expensive Challenger would be misleading. Or maybe we could assume that the Pony Car market is basically invisible to the average car buyer and people are just buying what they want... and it just so happens that 55% of sales were not Camaro's.

Incentives are coming soon for the Camaro. The R&D dollars and initial cost of production are beginning to be covered by sales profits. It's no secret that there are still 2010 Camaro's left on the lots and there is an up coming opportunity to offer incentives on those models. Production of the new 2012 Camaro's will start in mid-July, when the order banks open in a month or so, the Camaro will hit a small sales slump unless they offer incentives on the unsold stock. The Camaro's cost of production should have decreased by now and for the most part, factory incentives are a simple MSRP adjustment to keep sales rolling. When profits are made and the product is in the green and naturally, the cost of production begins to decrease then a factory cash back bonus isn't far off. Within a month or so is the perfect opportunity to get those incentive out there to stabilize sales while customers wait for the new 2012 (about a 3-5 month wait). GM used a factory incentive on the Camaro in January and February 2011 because of the alarming sales drop in the months prior but ended it in March. It's pretty intelligent if you think about it, you would be surprised how many people would buy a 2010 Camaro in 2011 when the right amount of incentives are attached... just as long as the dealers play along.

Advertising is important, but if GM can get away with not spending the money to do big advertisements then why waste the money. They did pitch out the money for the Superbowl and there are a lot of internet and magazine ads.. just not many TV spots.

Quote:
I agree with "Fun", but fun is a general term... it has to come from somewhere... it wasn't Fun like a Ford Fiesta fun, or fun like a VW beetle fun... it was fun because it could burn up the track with little or no modifications. It was fun because it wasn't a little tiny sports car but could put out figures that made people call it a sports car.

Your assumptions are that the Market will widen with the eco-4 cyl., that people that currently drive Prius' will say "hey... i want a mustang because it gets the same gas milage." I don't think that is true. These cars are symbols that Eco people hate, no matter how eco-friendly you make it. That will never change, and I just don't see the market for these cars growing. There are too many other options out there if Fuel Efficiency is your concern.

"The day they make a hybrid Camaro is the day Fun died!"
I wouldn't go as far to say that the Prius green people are going to embrace the 2014 Ecoboost SVO Mustang. What I'm saying is that a great void for automotive entusiast is about to be filled. It will not be a 2 seater, tiny sports car and it will not be a compact, economy collage campus cruiser... It will be a new pony car that's definition is yet to be defined. The fine line between fun and fast sports car and a responsible daily driven compact that seats four with room for groceries and a couple of cases of beer. The pony car will again have an answer to the question that today, the automotive world has no answer for. An economical vehicle that looks fun and that is fun to drive because it is fast for the MSRP but yet is gets great fuel mileage and appeals to a larger base than the typical V6 and V8 crowd. Real Eco people hate internal combustion engines and if they would pull their head from the clouds and realize that the electricity that their Powerwheels uses comes from a big ol' smoke stack somewhere out in the boonies in the local industrial park, they would understand that they truly know nothing... Real people buy economy cars because they are forced to. They don't want to spend their paychecks on gasoline to put in their daily drivers that ultimately get them to work. Give those regular people an opportunity to have a fun, fast and affordable sports coupe that seats four with reasonable trunk space and they will buy it.. if the MSRP is right. We are still talking over $8000 more for a Ecoboost SVO Mustang where a base Fiesta cost $17,000 but... your driving a sports coupe and not a economy compact... The market will widen because quite frankly... it doesn't exist...


Quote:
And finally... you say "to-mae-toe", i say "to-ma-toe". Limited edition, unique... that is what this base customer wants. Yes indeed, it keeps the Camaro in the headlines every 6 months... but just look at all the Camaros on the road, almost every one is modified because they wanted it personalized, rare, unique, etc. If i'm just buying a car (a general customer), limited edition isn't going to sway me. But if i'm bying a car i've always desired (a base customer) limited edition may be my hook-in-mouth.
Limited edition Camaro's are a great idea, it stirs the pot every 6 months. Although I still believe that most of these editions will be sticker jobs or a paint schemes because that approach would be far less money and time to develop. These limited editions will get a lot of buyers who are in limbo to commit...

Quote:
As far as the Z28... no one said it isn't still in the works. Probably on the next platform, when they change... since the Z28 is the 'track' Camaro it will be lighter then and better for the Z28 moniker. The ZL1 answered the call for a GT500 challenger, that was also a call from the customers. It has always been painful to see a GT500 blow away any Camaro. It will not enhance sales that much as you point out... so it has to be for the enthusiasts, period (just as the GT500 is). I like that they didn't call the ZL1 a Z28... it just wouldn't have been right.
I only hope that GM can push a 5th Gen Z28 out. There is already an FE4 suspension option going to be available for the 2012 SS (I call it the 4SS). This is the first step in what I think could be a future Z28. I am convinced that the 6th Gen will be held off until the Camaro's 50th Anniversary in 2017 and that is way too long to hold out for a Z28. The ZL1 will serve its purpose just as the GT500 does, it gets people talking about the car in general, gets people on the lot, gets potential customers looking at the order guide... It's a halo car, that's what it does, it will not be in large quantities.

Quote:
This debate of opinions could go on forever, and has. You've got a pretty sharp Mustang, I've got a sexy Camaro. I don't think either will force the other out (again) if both companies continue to put in their heart and soul into it as they are currently!
The market itself is shaky right now, selling mostly in the spring/summer and fading at the end of fall... The Eco engines will elevate the market and fill that void in the US car market right now for a fun, fast and affordable sports coupe with respectable fuel mileage...

Again, thanks for the post.. It gave me a lot to think about.... and I love your SS's color, I've always been a sucker for any gun metal color. My Kimber 1911 Stainless II is that color... love it...

Last edited by thePill; 05-08-2011 at 05:00 PM.
thePill is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CAMARO WIKI Tran Wiki 49 09-09-2014 06:46 AM
5th Gen Suspension -- The Book JusticePete Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 148 09-04-2013 03:28 PM
Transcript of Camaro ZL1 Q&A Webchat with Chevrolet Tran Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 38 02-17-2012 01:45 AM
Answeres to questions I have stumbled on dieseldave24v 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 13 02-23-2009 07:56 PM
UPCOMING CAMARO IMPORTANT DATES CamaroScotty 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 125 01-11-2009 01:31 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.