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Old 05-04-2011, 03:00 PM   #35
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Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan View Post
Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.

That is an interesting point. It is possbile that people were buying Mustangs simply becase there was nothing else to buy during the Camaro/Trans Am/Chally "void" period, unless of course you wanted to pick up a Vette.
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:16 PM   #37
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It's amazing (and awesome) how well the Camaro is doing. To have sales this strong(and growing) is a sign of how great a job they did making the car.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:16 PM   #38
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, but not many seen on the roads yet..hopefully the aftermarket goodies increase as well..
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:57 PM   #39
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Of course the 4thgen Camaro and Firebird were selling about 75,000 combined, and that was after 5+ years into it's life, and a not totally popular styling. So it's not a huge jump to where the current car is. The interesting thing is if you combine Camaro, mustang and challenger sales, they're about where the mustang was by itself in 2005. So the market hasn't expanded. It's a really competitive market that has to be fought over. Fortunately the Camaro is simply the best looking car of the three.
All good points being made. I get tired of hearing every month, excuses why the Camaro won "that" month...getting old. They have basically outsold since released, and yes, it has surprised me (because of historic data). It is never mentioned the fact that Mustang is definitely the entrenched dog, with a following ump-teen times larger than Camaro's, and that is worth huge volumes of their car sales...but yet they are still being outsold and had to drop a production shift; and not only are more neutral buyers choosing Camaro's but obviously with Mustang sales drastically down, tsome of heir buyers have switched as well.
We sold our Mustang vert and got a Camaro vert...my fiancee every now and then reminds me how glad she is I made the switch for her; she absolutely loves the car. She just laughs at all the times with drive thru attendants, gas stations, stop lights, etc, people comment on our car...she says that hardly ever happened with her Stang. As mentioned, it really isn't even debateable how much better looking the Camaro is...general, unbiased street comments prove it.
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:01 PM   #40
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... it really isn't even debateable how much better looking the Camaro is...general, unbiased street comments prove it.


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Old 05-04-2011, 11:21 PM   #41
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WOOOO!!!!!

Summer's a 'comin.....let the convertible's free, and watch the sales rise higher!!!!
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:10 AM   #42
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The sales of the 2005 Mustang were huge, there were 166,000 sold in the US alone and another 160,000 sold in 2006. It was originally projected that the Camaro would sell 150,000 in its first year but went on to sell about 60,000. The best case scenario for GM would be that the current sales trend continues and GM would not be forced to redesign the Camaro until 2016 for a MY17 Camaro. That would give the 5th Gen a solid 7 year production run and R&D would definitely be paid off and additional profits could be used for the 6th Gen as well. Reality though, will see the sales begin to dip during this year. 10,000 units is good for the current situation and the convertible was responsible for that and incentives will pick up very soon to help mitigate that natural sales dip. The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much. The fact that I can get a 2012 Premium GT with 3.73's, Brembo's and 401a leather for $33,000 is very attractive... If I didn't own a 2011, I would be buying a 2012...

Whether or not GM decides to take the Camaro out to 2017 will depend on the sales boom the 2014 Mustang creates. If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. If GM can wait... they should.. Then there is the 2013 Mustang refresh... I believe that the 2013 model year will be a long one, 16 months in fact, so a minor refresh will help... Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:33 PM   #43
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The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much.
If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:49 PM   #44
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Of those delivered, how many were CONVERTIBLES?
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:52 PM   #45
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The sales of the 2005 Mustang were huge, there were 166,000 sold in the US alone and another 160,000 sold in 2006. It was originally projected that the Camaro would sell 150,000 in its first year but went on to sell about 60,000. The best case scenario for GM would be that the current sales trend continues and GM would not be forced to redesign the Camaro until 2016 for a MY17 Camaro. That would give the 5th Gen a solid 7 year production run and R&D would definitely be paid off and additional profits could be used for the 6th Gen as well. Reality though, will see the sales begin to dip during this year. 10,000 units is good for the current situation and the convertible was responsible for that and incentives will pick up very soon to help mitigate that natural sales dip. The Mustang's sales have actually doubled since the Camaro came out in 2009. I'm not sure if it is just the interest in the market or the new engine or what. There are $2000 factory incentives on 2012's, but that isn't really that much. The fact that I can get a 2012 Premium GT with 3.73's, Brembo's and 401a leather for $33,000 is very attractive... If I didn't own a 2011, I would be buying a 2012...

Whether or not GM decides to take the Camaro out to 2017 will depend on the sales boom the 2014 Mustang creates. If the 2014 Mustang is leaving the lots on a 4 to 1 ratio and is running circles around the 2014 Camaro, it will entice GM to push the 6th Gen out sooner. If GM can wait... they should.. Then there is the 2013 Mustang refresh... I believe that the 2013 model year will be a long one, 16 months in fact, so a minor refresh will help... Ford's profits on the Mustang are high, so high that they can pull a crazy stunt like this just for bragging rights...
Wait...does that include Brembo's on front AND rear?
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:12 PM   #46
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Thanks for the data, and "thePill" for the extra commentary as well.

I would love to see this done as a stacked bar chart delineating the breakdown of coups and verts for both the 'stang and the Camaro, but it doesn't look like that data is easily accessible, and I don't think spasticsquirrel is that reliable for total counts, just trends. I can never get it to work for too much granularity for me anyway.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:33 PM   #47
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*checking URL....*


Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:12 AM   #48
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Let's see, 2009 Mustang was a short 7 month production run year, 2010 was 15 months...maybe, just maybe that had something to do with their higher production from 09.
$2000 ain't much huh, well a buddy here at work wanted to get a Camaro, but with that nice incentive, their standard lower cost and extra moving by the dealer...it was enough to move him to a Stang. If $2000 ain't much, go ahead and send a check to me.
You must be smoking good stuff if you dream of Stangs, today or tomorrow moving at a 4 to 1 level over Camaro's...let me know if you need someone to take that bet.
Bragging rights... but Ford brass when questioned about being outsold, are insisting they aren't in it for bragging rights...yeah, right, you know it's eating into their crawl big time.
The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.

Last edited by thePill; 05-06-2011 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:30 AM   #49
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*checking URL....*


Nope. Still no "Mustang" in the site name.....
Sorry for all the Mustang talk, for some reason I cannot stop talking about them...
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:26 PM   #50
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The 2009 Mustang's production was cut short but it wasn't a 7 month model year, production was cut over the entire 12 months to limit the numbers due to the 2010 redesign. The 2010 Mustang's production was also limited and it sure wasn't a 15 month model year. Production was limited due to preorders of the 2011 5.0 and stopped sometime during Q1 2010. Ford has been limiting production on the Mustang since 2009 to accurately produce the amount that was being sold. At the end of the model's life, it is important to not over produce the product to maximize profits. The is no reason Ford should be producing 100,000+ units now, nobody wants to buy a S197 Mustang anymore... everyone already bought one.

Back in 2000-2002, Mustang outsold the Camaro/Firebird on a ratio of 4:1. Currently, it is almost 1:1 and will remain that way until the Mustang is redesigned in 2014. In 2014, Ford will offer the 2.0 Ecoboost Inline 4 cylinder in the Mustang for the first time since the 1980's. The sales volume on the 2.0E will make up more than 60% of the Mustang's sales and could mirror the sales of other Ford Ecoboost 4's and economy engine cars such as the Focus and Fiesta. With a new model and offering the 275hp Ecoboost 4, it is very possible the Mustang will out sell the tired Camaro on a ratio of 4:1. A fuel efficient sports coupe/convertible will sell very well, especially in new skin and the Mustang name attached to it. Depending on the sales success of tyhe new Mustang, the Camaro may be forced to be redesigned earlier than expected. I myself am in the market for a 2014 2.0 Ecoboost convertible Mustang, even more so if it comes with a 35MPG highway rating.

Ford makes adjustments to brag, regardless of what they tell the media. Ford also commented that Flatrock only operates with one shift... Ford cannot physically sell anymore Mustang's... It is impossible.. The most important thing now is to focus on production numbers associated with actual sales.. The S197 was very successful, no need to make any last minute mistakes...

Edit: By the time 2014 rolls around, the 5th Gen will be dragging it's feet in sales. The more Camaro's that sell today the less Camaro's will sell tomorrow. By about 2012-13, the 5th Gen will be up for a mid model refresh or perhaps even around the same time Ford goes public with the 50th Anniversary Mustang to shush the buzz a little. We’re looking at a good 200 pound weight reduction not counting the 4 cylinder which will obviously be the lightest offering. The dimensions should be very close to what is available today or somewhat similar to the M3's. The physical size cannot be too much smaller as Ford still needs to squeeze the 5.0 between the strut towers and the length and wheelbase would look awkward if the track width remains the same.
I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:17 AM   #51
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I'm saving this post so that in 4 or 5 years,(if you're still around), You will be proven wrong. I will repost your statement at the appropriate time. How about taking your ford sunglasses off and looking at the numbers as they are now. Face it, right now for the past couple years GM has made a better product and the sales are reflecting it. There is no point in dreaming and trying to predict how the buying public will react to sales of a car that hasn't been built yet, much less having been fully designed and released to the public. Don't take this as a flame, just trying to point out some nonsense.
No offense taken, but you do realize that the Ecoboost and GM's Ecotech engines will be hot sellers right? There is a large market for fuel efficient sport coupes. Take the 1 series and 3 series BMW's for example, the 1 series outsells the 3 series on a 3 to 1 ratio here in Europe. The Ecoboost Mustang will be a HUGE seller and so will the Ecotech Camaro when it arrives 2016-2017. Thinking that the 5th Gen Camaro sales will still be just as strong in 2014 is wishful thinking but I only hope that they can maintain throughout the last couple of years. Sales of the Camaro during Q4 2010 and January 2011 were very low. Now that can be accredited to seasonal trends but those seasonal trends had a very small effect on the 5th gen during the first year. The Camaro's sales will be that of the Mustang's are now, strong through the spring/summer and non existent throughout the fall and winter. Most of that sales decline has to do with Ford's production, Ford only produces Mustang's at capacity during 3 of the 4 quarters of the year.

By 2014, The 5th Gen Camaro's sales will be at the lowest during its model life and will need a refresh to help with sales. There is a big possibility that the 5th Gen won't even make it to where the S197 has as far a model life goes. The S197 will be almost 10 years old when it leaves production, that is incredible for an automobile today and it still manages strong spring/summer sales. The S197 will be close to one million sales when it leaves the fleet, something that the 5th Gen Camaro cannot replicate. As of today, the Camaro has sold just as many units as the Mustang sold in 2005 alone, I know the market has changed and it will change again when Ford redefines the Pony Car market in 2014. The reality is, the Eco 4 cylinders will carry the pony car market into the next generation and any Eco pony car will dominate the segment... the question is, how long can GM hold out on the 5th Gen while pent up demand for a new lightweight economy/performance sport coupe is available... and as the market slowly changes into whatever the Mustang becomes. I hope that the 5th Gen Camaro can survive until 2017...

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