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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-06-2011, 09:46 AM   #1
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Z28 Weight Loss

With all the talk of how to lose weight on the Z28 and how light it should be from GM, I thought I would make a new thread and say











ITS A HEAVY CAR AND WONT LOSE 100LBS SO GET OVER IT.




Look folks this talk about weight isn't helping to get this car made, its hurting it. Also don't tell me what the mustang weights, its a much smaller car. in fact look at the weight of the Boss and compare to the GT.

I guess all I am saying is that we need to stop filling this area with crazy diet ideas every 2 seconds and look at suspension and engine setups more.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:12 AM   #2
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Not only that where did this weight stuff come from anyway? I mean a 69 Z28 was basically the same weight as any other Camaro produced that year too right? JusticePete has already shown what a stock SS can do. It is very formidable, however there is room for improvement. With proper suspenson upgrades, the Z28 can be made to tear us some AZZ around a road course. If they can find some weight to drop fine, that's just icing on the cake.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #3
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The suspension is going to add a lot of weight so the key to keeping the Z28's weight down will be to find the areas that we can keep the weight relatively low. I understand that the 5th Gen is a big car and weight reduction is a difficult task but, that doesn't mean we should ignore weight all together. If were looking to produce a naturally aspirated, road going Z28 then weight is and always will be an issue. With the upcoming FE4 suspension that will be available on the 2012 Camaro SS, it is proof that GM is taking a step in the right direction to produce a well mannered Camaro for track duty. Now the task of keeping weight to a minimum, not a 100 pound reduction, is necessary more now than ever. Suspension can add an insane amount of weight but it is not unwanted weight so to speak... Heavier suspension means stability.

If GM can keep the weight of the Z28 close to the SS's curb weight, then it is a possibility that they can use a two piece rotor and still use the same diameter that the SS does. There is physical proof that a 4000+ pound Camaro can handle as Pedders did just that to a 2010 SS. As long as the 2012 Camaro didn't gain too much weight over the 2010 and 2011, it wouldn't be crazy to think that GM could develop and produce a 3800 pound Z28 Camaro. It also isn't crazy to think that GM could even manage to make a Z28 a tad bit lighter than the standard SS of say, 50 or so pounds. GM needed a benchmark car and now Ford has given it to them in the form of the Boss 302. It is only a matter of time before GM is caught in camouflage in the Detroit area in a Z28 test mule. It is probably out of the question to see a 3700lb Z28, but it would be HUGE news if GM could manage a 3799lbs Z28.

I am excited all this is going on and I love the fact that there are people on this site doing the bench engineering to figure out where the Z28 would stand. I am calling for a high revving, naturally aspired LS3 to do the job. Its the lightest and most inexpensive V8 engine they got. Now the issue of developing an LS3 that can turn out the RPMs and produce the horsepower and torque needed to compete with the Boss 302. I will be looking to the Grand Am Continental Tire Grand Sport class for the new Z28... having the Z28 appear there would bring back the SCCA Trans Am series days of the pony car war and I would no longer regret being born in the wrong generation...
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:56 AM   #4
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The 1969 SCCA rules stated a car could have a minimum weight of 2900 pounds less fuel and driver. Thats almost 500 pounds off a factory street car. Folks, these were race cars not street cars. The weight reduction isn't going to happen.
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:48 PM   #5
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The 1969 SCCA rules stated a car could have a minimum weight of 2900 pounds less fuel and driver. Thats almost 500 pounds off a factory street car. Folks, these were race cars not street cars. The weight reduction isn't going to happen.
I think we are talking about cars that are gonna be sold to the general public.
Race cars are a completely different breed.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:28 PM   #6
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I think we are talking about cars that are gonna be sold to the general public.
Race cars are a completely different breed.
I understand, my point is you're not going to get the weight loss without stripping the car. I guess it depends on what you can't and can live without.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:53 PM   #7
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I understand, my point is you're not going to get the weight loss without stripping the car. I guess it depends on what you can't and can live without.
Well then the dilemma is as simple as this; Can Camaro enthusiast live without sound deadening material, leather electric seats, touch screen Nav and a Boston sound system or would they rather live without Z28? This Z28 is only for "The" Camaro enthusiast... anyone else need not apply... Its the Z06 of the Camaro world, a serious Camaro for serious Camaro people.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:25 PM   #8
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Not only that where did this weight stuff come from anyway? I mean a 69 Z28 was basically the same weight as any other Camaro produced that year too right?
There were things on the regular cars that couldn't be ordered on the Z's. The '67-69 Z/28's never had power steering or drum front brakes. Springs were also different from a regular small block car.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:11 PM   #9
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The 1969 SCCA rules stated a car could have a minimum weight of 2900 pounds less fuel and driver. Thats almost 500 pounds off a factory street car. Folks, these were race cars not street cars. The weight reduction isn't going to happen.
And while that is true, a factory Z/28 on the street wasn't overly heavy either. My '69 Z/28 new in stock form weighed 3385 lbs., that was probably close to 300 lbs. less than a '69 SS 396 with auto tranny and AC, that was due to the Z/28 having a small block, manual tranny and no AC.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:02 PM   #10
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There were things on the regular cars that couldn't be ordered on the Z's. The '67-69 Z/28's never had power steering or drum front brakes. Springs were also different from a regular small block car.
PS was an option. I have it on mine.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:05 PM   #11
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And while that is true, a factory Z/28 on the street wasn't overly heavy either. My '69 Z/28 new in stock form weighed 3385 lbs., that was probably close to 300 lbs. less than a '69 SS 396 with auto tranny and AC, that was due to the Z/28 having a small block, manual tranny and no AC.
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Clyde, as The Pill and I stated it's going to come down to what we can't and can live with and what Chevrolet deems we can. I vote to strip it and go with it.
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Old 05-06-2011, 08:14 PM   #12
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Clyde, as The Pill and I stated it's going to come down to what we can't and can live with and what Chevrolet deems we can. I vote to strip it and go with it.
Oh I pretty much agree with you, but I don't think Chevrolet is willing to go but so far on the 5th gen. Z/28 (if they build one).
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:59 PM   #13
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Well then the dilemma is as simple as this; Can Camaro enthusiast live without sound deadening material, leather electric seats, touch screen Nav and a Boston sound system or would they rather live without Z28? This Z28 is only for "The" Camaro enthusiast... anyone else need not apply... Its the Z06 of the Camaro world, a serious Camaro for serious Camaro people.
I am with you on this and that weight will need to be taken off to account for suspension upgrades but it everyone wanting the completed Z28 100-500 lbs lighter when we are all said and done and it just cant happen.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:05 PM   #14
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Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:22 PM   #15
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Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
The current Camaro 3.6 is a DOHC engine and with twin turbos would be heavier than the 418lb LS3. The 3.6 weighs somewhere around 380-410lbs I believe so with the addition of the twin turbo's, plumbing and heat exchanger/intercooler would make it a heavier engine than the LS3. The V6 Camaro weighs 3741lbs alone, that is of course with the lighter engine, lighter transmission, suspension, exhaust, wheel/tires and select other pieces the V6 has than the SS does not.

I'm with Blizzard on this one, reducing the weight in the Camaro by 100-150lbs is impossible especially with the suspension that would be going on the Z28. They could lose close to 100lbs by using the Corvettes Transverse Leaf Spring rear suspension setup with the Corvette's IRS. The Camaro's complete rear suspension, differential and IRS system together weighs something like 375+lbs... That's almost just as much as the LS3 weighs.. that would explain the near 50/50 front and rear weight distribution. If GM used a solid rear axle, the Camaro would lose about 225lbs right off the bat... but it will never happen.

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Old 05-09-2011, 02:46 PM   #16
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Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.


That makes a lot of sense, SCE. I personally prefer the big V8. a new Direct Injection engine sporting a twin turbo, on a lighter Zeta platform with aluminum & carbon fiber would be the way to make a Camaro lighter, but would it still be a Camaro? That sounds more like a Supercar than a Muscle Car.

I would be happy with a Z28 coming out in a couple of years with as much weight savings and bleeding edge handling as can be managed, possibly even with the insane added expense of going the aluminum/carbon route, but that would be a Z28 for someone else to drive. 50k is stretching me quite literally past the comfort zone as it is.

Every one of us would love to see a Z28 beating Lamborghinis around a track, or neck and neck with a ZR1, but could enough of us afford one to make it cost effective to build one?

I don't think so. I can't afford a ZR1 either.

So, to make a long opinion short, I will take my ZL1 and be quite happy with it. I just think they named it wrong.


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Old 05-09-2011, 03:27 PM   #17
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The current Camaro 3.6 is a DOHC engine and with twin turbos would be heavier than the 418lb LS3. The 3.6 weighs somewhere around 380-410lbs I believe so with the addition of the twin turbo's, plumbing and heat exchanger/intercooler would make it a heavier engine than the LS3. The V6 Camaro weighs 3741lbs alone, that is of course with the lighter engine, lighter transmission, suspension, exhaust, wheel/tires and select other pieces the V6 has than the SS does not.

I'm with Blizzard on this one, reducing the weight in the Camaro by 100-150lbs is impossible especially with the suspension that would be going on the Z28. They could lose close to 100lbs by using the Corvettes Transverse Leaf Spring rear suspension setup with the Corvette's IRS. The Camaro's complete rear suspension, differential and IRS system together weighs something like 375+lbs... That's almost just as much as the LS3 weighs.. that would explain the near 50/50 front and rear weight distribution. If GM used a solid rear axle, the Camaro would lose about 225lbs right off the bat... but it will never happen.
I agree the current IRS needs to be fixed, but a solid rear is not the answer when new geometry can fix the problems.

Now the talk of a V6 is also not the answer here at all, and no its not "The Z28 has to have a monster V8" speech, its a numbers thing. The stress on the motor from Road Racing is tremendous, and the added pressure from boosting (by use of turbos) would shorten the engines life considerably. While this is ok for one race engines in professorial racing, its not for a car that is a daily driver first.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #18
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I agree the current IRS needs to be fixed, but a solid rear is not the answer when new geometry can fix the problems.

Now the talk of a V6 is also not the answer here at all, and no its not "The Z28 has to have a monster V8" speech, its a numbers thing. The stress on the motor from Road Racing is tremendous, and the added pressure from boosting (by use of turbos) would shorten the engines life considerably. While this is ok for one race engines in professorial racing, its not for a car that is a daily driver first.
What about the fact that the Nissan GT-R has a twin turbo V6 and it now the fastest car of the supercars in 1/4 mile run. Plus, in the Germany test track it recently sent a record! I know it AWD but still it is heavy but nimble maybe because of the AWD in the corners but it possible that Chevrolet can make the Camaro run similar to the GT-R!
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:25 PM   #19
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What about the fact that the Nissan GT-R has a twin turbo V6 and it now the fastest car of the supercars in 1/4 mile run. Plus, in the Germany test track it recently sent a record! I know it AWD but still it is heavy but nimble maybe because of the AWD in the corners but it possible that Chevrolet can make the Camaro run similar to the GT-R!
We aren't talking 1/4 mile runs or even one lap runs here, we are talking hours of high revving, and as of right now GM doesn't have a V6 made for this. Also AWD drive plays a huge factor in the handling and speed of the GT-R.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:16 PM   #20
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:25 PM   #21
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Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
Where do I start?? Check engine and twin turbo weights prior to making such statements (and see my barf statement in reply on another thread). Sigma frame?? The 5th gen Camaro is on the Zeta chassis (which is a heavy, large car chassis).
Clyde

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Old 05-10-2011, 01:27 PM   #22
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
Lots of things can be lighter but at a cost. We don't need to lose the IRS in this car just adjust it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:42 PM   #23
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We aren't talking 1/4 mile runs or even one lap runs here, we are talking hours of high revving, and as of right now GM doesn't have a V6 made for this. Also AWD drive plays a huge factor in the handling and speed of the GT-R.
I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:28 PM   #24
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Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
It's been said already that. A V6 with turbos weighs in about the same as the LS3.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:35 PM   #25
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I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
Plus it cost more than twice as much!!!
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