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Old 05-09-2011, 01:22 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuperCarEnthusiast View Post
Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
The current Camaro 3.6 is a DOHC engine and with twin turbos would be heavier than the 418lb LS3. The 3.6 weighs somewhere around 380-410lbs I believe so with the addition of the twin turbo's, plumbing and heat exchanger/intercooler would make it a heavier engine than the LS3. The V6 Camaro weighs 3741lbs alone, that is of course with the lighter engine, lighter transmission, suspension, exhaust, wheel/tires and select other pieces the V6 has than the SS does not.

I'm with Blizzard on this one, reducing the weight in the Camaro by 100-150lbs is impossible especially with the suspension that would be going on the Z28. They could lose close to 100lbs by using the Corvettes Transverse Leaf Spring rear suspension setup with the Corvette's IRS. The Camaro's complete rear suspension, differential and IRS system together weighs something like 375+lbs... That's almost just as much as the LS3 weighs.. that would explain the near 50/50 front and rear weight distribution. If GM used a solid rear axle, the Camaro would lose about 225lbs right off the bat... but it will never happen.

Last edited by thePill; 05-09-2011 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCarEnthusiast View Post
Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.


That makes a lot of sense, SCE. I personally prefer the big V8. a new Direct Injection engine sporting a twin turbo, on a lighter Zeta platform with aluminum & carbon fiber would be the way to make a Camaro lighter, but would it still be a Camaro? That sounds more like a Supercar than a Muscle Car.

I would be happy with a Z28 coming out in a couple of years with as much weight savings and bleeding edge handling as can be managed, possibly even with the insane added expense of going the aluminum/carbon route, but that would be a Z28 for someone else to drive. 50k is stretching me quite literally past the comfort zone as it is.

Every one of us would love to see a Z28 beating Lamborghinis around a track, or neck and neck with a ZR1, but could enough of us afford one to make it cost effective to build one?

I don't think so. I can't afford a ZR1 either.

So, to make a long opinion short, I will take my ZL1 and be quite happy with it. I just think they named it wrong.


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Old 05-09-2011, 03:27 PM   #17
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The current Camaro 3.6 is a DOHC engine and with twin turbos would be heavier than the 418lb LS3. The 3.6 weighs somewhere around 380-410lbs I believe so with the addition of the twin turbo's, plumbing and heat exchanger/intercooler would make it a heavier engine than the LS3. The V6 Camaro weighs 3741lbs alone, that is of course with the lighter engine, lighter transmission, suspension, exhaust, wheel/tires and select other pieces the V6 has than the SS does not.

I'm with Blizzard on this one, reducing the weight in the Camaro by 100-150lbs is impossible especially with the suspension that would be going on the Z28. They could lose close to 100lbs by using the Corvettes Transverse Leaf Spring rear suspension setup with the Corvette's IRS. The Camaro's complete rear suspension, differential and IRS system together weighs something like 375+lbs... That's almost just as much as the LS3 weighs.. that would explain the near 50/50 front and rear weight distribution. If GM used a solid rear axle, the Camaro would lose about 225lbs right off the bat... but it will never happen.
I agree the current IRS needs to be fixed, but a solid rear is not the answer when new geometry can fix the problems.

Now the talk of a V6 is also not the answer here at all, and no its not "The Z28 has to have a monster V8" speech, its a numbers thing. The stress on the motor from Road Racing is tremendous, and the added pressure from boosting (by use of turbos) would shorten the engines life considerably. While this is ok for one race engines in professorial racing, its not for a car that is a daily driver first.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #18
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I agree the current IRS needs to be fixed, but a solid rear is not the answer when new geometry can fix the problems.

Now the talk of a V6 is also not the answer here at all, and no its not "The Z28 has to have a monster V8" speech, its a numbers thing. The stress on the motor from Road Racing is tremendous, and the added pressure from boosting (by use of turbos) would shorten the engines life considerably. While this is ok for one race engines in professorial racing, its not for a car that is a daily driver first.
What about the fact that the Nissan GT-R has a twin turbo V6 and it now the fastest car of the supercars in 1/4 mile run. Plus, in the Germany test track it recently sent a record! I know it AWD but still it is heavy but nimble maybe because of the AWD in the corners but it possible that Chevrolet can make the Camaro run similar to the GT-R!
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:25 PM   #19
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What about the fact that the Nissan GT-R has a twin turbo V6 and it now the fastest car of the supercars in 1/4 mile run. Plus, in the Germany test track it recently sent a record! I know it AWD but still it is heavy but nimble maybe because of the AWD in the corners but it possible that Chevrolet can make the Camaro run similar to the GT-R!
We aren't talking 1/4 mile runs or even one lap runs here, we are talking hours of high revving, and as of right now GM doesn't have a V6 made for this. Also AWD drive plays a huge factor in the handling and speed of the GT-R.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:16 PM   #20
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by SuperCarEnthusiast View Post
Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
Where do I start?? Check engine and twin turbo weights prior to making such statements (and see my barf statement in reply on another thread). Sigma frame?? The 5th gen Camaro is on the Zeta chassis (which is a heavy, large car chassis).
Clyde

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Old 05-10-2011, 01:27 PM   #22
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
Lots of things can be lighter but at a cost. We don't need to lose the IRS in this car just adjust it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:42 PM   #23
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We aren't talking 1/4 mile runs or even one lap runs here, we are talking hours of high revving, and as of right now GM doesn't have a V6 made for this. Also AWD drive plays a huge factor in the handling and speed of the GT-R.
I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCarEnthusiast View Post
Most of the weight is in the engine. If they go to a V6 with turbos; then they can reduce at least 100 maybe 150 pounds from the front; which will give the Z28 a much better handling and turning characteristics.

Further, Chevrolet could if they wanted to use an aluminium frame like the ZR1 does and have carbon fiber panels. Of course we are talking another $20K if that happens but that would reduce the weigh another 200 pounds

The Sigma frame is just designed heavy! So their are limits. But just doing the reducing engine from V8 to turbo V6 will make it feel fast and nimble.
It's been said already that. A V6 with turbos weighs in about the same as the LS3.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:35 PM   #25
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I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
Plus it cost more than twice as much!!!
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #26
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
Won't the next Mustang have IRS?
Solid axles and Pushrod engines are old tech. Unless you just wanna drag race.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:28 AM   #27
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Won't the next Mustang have IRS?
Solid axles and Pushrod engines are old tech. Unless you just wanna drag race.
Yes, The Mustang III will have IRS. It will be Ford's Control Blade IRS that utilizes huge trailing arms, a design that isn't typical of modern IRS. The Australians’ love Control Blade IRS because it is lightweight (just as heavy as a LRA), uses compact coilovers mounted close to center (so huge tire sizes are possible) and the trailing arms mimic the LRA during weight transfer under hard acceleration.

Drag racing is becoming pretty popular in Europe. As gas prices rise, the desire to race does as well. Road racing takes a lot of fuel and drag racing does not. Something the Europeans see as efficient.

Old tech is cheap and usually lightweight. Pushrods will eventually reach their maximum potential and be limited by design. Solid rear axles are pretty much as far as they can go but will always have a home in drag racing. The Macpherson strut 3- link front suspension is old technology. Ford actually designed that in the 1950's. Both the Mustang and the Camaro uses the Macpherson strut front suspension. Ford has the Virtual pivot control link double wishbone (4-link) front suspension on deck for the Mustang III and I hope that they use it. People tend to forget about the front suspension and get caught up in those three magic letters "IRS". Most Camaro owners don't know that their front suspension is very outdated... and designed by Ford...
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:03 AM   #28
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I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
I completely agree
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