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Old 05-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #26
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They need to offer the car with either aluminum trailing arm and lighter drive shafts or put a solid axle in it. That's what the mustang has and it seems to fair pretty well. There is 100lbs that can be lost. Wheels can be lighter, driveshaft from trans to rear end can be lighter. Manual seats, lighter wheels etc. It can be done and I don't think it would be that hard.
Won't the next Mustang have IRS?
Solid axles and Pushrod engines are old tech. Unless you just wanna drag race.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:28 AM   #27
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Won't the next Mustang have IRS?
Solid axles and Pushrod engines are old tech. Unless you just wanna drag race.
Yes, The Mustang III will have IRS. It will be Ford's Control Blade IRS that utilizes huge trailing arms, a design that isn't typical of modern IRS. The Australiansí love Control Blade IRS because it is lightweight (just as heavy as a LRA), uses compact coilovers mounted close to center (so huge tire sizes are possible) and the trailing arms mimic the LRA during weight transfer under hard acceleration.

Drag racing is becoming pretty popular in Europe. As gas prices rise, the desire to race does as well. Road racing takes a lot of fuel and drag racing does not. Something the Europeans see as efficient.

Old tech is cheap and usually lightweight. Pushrods will eventually reach their maximum potential and be limited by design. Solid rear axles are pretty much as far as they can go but will always have a home in drag racing. The Macpherson strut 3- link front suspension is old technology. Ford actually designed that in the 1950's. Both the Mustang and the Camaro uses the Macpherson strut front suspension. Ford has the Virtual pivot control link double wishbone (4-link) front suspension on deck for the Mustang III and I hope that they use it. People tend to forget about the front suspension and get caught up in those three magic letters "IRS". Most Camaro owners don't know that their front suspension is very outdated... and designed by Ford...
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:03 AM   #28
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I see what you're saying and I agree with you, but there is just too much technology in that GTR for these two cars to be similar. The dual-clutch transmission from Getrag is amazing.
I completely agree
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:40 PM   #29
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The current Camaro 3.6 is a DOHC engine and with twin turbos would be heavier than the 418lb LS3. The 3.6 weighs somewhere around 380-410lbs I believe so with the addition of the twin turbo's, plumbing and heat exchanger/intercooler would make it a heavier engine than the LS3. The V6 Camaro weighs 3741lbs alone, that is of course with the lighter engine, lighter transmission, suspension, exhaust, wheel/tires and select other pieces the V6 has than the SS does not.

I'm with Blizzard on this one, reducing the weight in the Camaro by 100-150lbs is impossible especially with the suspension that would be going on the Z28. They could lose close to 100lbs by using the Corvettes Transverse Leaf Spring rear suspension setup with the Corvette's IRS. The Camaro's complete rear suspension, differential and IRS system together weighs something like 375+lbs... That's almost just as much as the LS3 weighs.. that would explain the near 50/50 front and rear weight distribution. If GM used a solid rear axle, the Camaro would lose about 225lbs right off the bat... but it will never happen.


"
Walk around and interview with the Design Manager in charge of the 2010 Twin Turbo Chevrolet Camaro built for Jay Leno at the 2009 SEMA Show. Here the details about this one of kind Camaro powered by a Twin Turbo charged V6. Todd Parker describes Jay's goals and design ideas that went into building this muscle car that is ahead of it's time.

" Read the message post on this video too. These are the racetrack players.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:14 PM   #30
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Walk around and interview with the Design Manager in charge of the 2010 Twin Turbo Chevrolet Camaro built for Jay Leno at the 2009 SEMA Show. Here the details about this one of kind Camaro powered by a Twin Turbo charged V6. Todd Parker describes Jay's goals and design ideas that went into building this muscle car that is ahead of it's time.

" Read the message post on this video too. These are the racetrack players.
Even though Todd Parker commented that the twin turbo V6 is lighter than the LS3, I still honestly believe that the LS3 is lighter. The direct injection 3.6 weighs 370-380lbs dry and the addition of the two turbo units, the extra plumbing, heat exchanger, the air to air intercooler and all the fluids would be well over 100lbs. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire twin turbo LLT 3.6, ready to run weighed 500lbs easy. I don't know for sure, but the LLT's compression ratio is 11.4:1, I'm wondering if GM opened up the engine or not. It looks like Jay's Camaro uses an under belly twin turbo system so there is a decent amount of plumbing there. The V6's accessories should weigh the about the same as the V8's like the power steering, air conditioning ect ect. The transmission might be lighter than the Tremec and the Hydra-matic the SS uses but it won't be any more than 30-40lbs. Todd is correct when he says the V6 weighs less but when you put the twin turbo kit on there it surpasses the LS3. I know that the LFX 3.6 is 20lbs lighter than the LLT 3.6 (basically the same engine) but as far as I know, the LLT 3.6 is identical to the LY7 3.6 other than the direct injection... so weight should be exactly the same.

This is GM doing public research and development and using a household name to attract attention. There is no better name to put on a car to attract attention then Jay Leno. GM has been doing a lot of celebrity Camaro builds lately so it must be working. Great setup though, it just isn't lighter than the LS3 equipped SS and the fact that Todd didn't even weigh the car to confirm his beliefs doesn't hold a lot of weight with me... (pun intended)
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:25 PM   #31
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"
Walk around and interview with the Design Manager in charge of the 2010 Twin Turbo Chevrolet Camaro built for Jay Leno at the 2009 SEMA Show. Here the details about this one of kind Camaro powered by a Twin Turbo charged V6. Todd Parker describes Jay's goals and design ideas that went into building this muscle car that is ahead of it's time.

" Read the message post on this video too. These are the racetrack players.
The LS3 weighs in at 415lbs the 3.6 at 370lbs. Now add on 40lbs for Turbonetics T-3 turbochargers which are on the Leno Camaro and that gives you 410lbs without plumbing for the twin turbo v6. It does not save weight. Also that 3.6 was more then likely custom built to withstand the add boost pressure for long periods of time.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:41 PM   #32
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The LS3 weighs in at 415lbs the 3.6 at 370lbs. Now add on 40lbs for Turbonetics T-3 turbochargers which are on the Leno Camaro and that gives you 410lbs without plumbing for the twin turbo v6. It does not save weight. Also that 3.6 was more then likely custom built to withstand the add boost pressure for long periods of time.
I gotta agree with the custom built 3.6, the compression is way too high in the LLT to be twin turbocharged. Like I said in the last post, you add in the heat exchanger, air to air intercooler, the plumbing and all the fluids and it will be pretty close to 500lbs if not more.

Edit: The Turbonetics T-3 turbos are only using 7lbs of boost. At 11.4:1 compression, it's possible to run 7lbs of boost without touching the internals. The thing is, they never really show the engine that much because this is a working GM Ecotech prototype NOT a Jay Leno special edition. Similar to the Twinforce (now Ecoboost) 3.5 V6 monster Ford had in 2008-2009. GM should rename "Ecotec" to "Lenoboost" to gain 10 extra horsepower...
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:58 PM   #33
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I gotta agree with the custom built 3.6, the compression is way too high in the LLT to be twin turbocharged. Like I said in the last post, you add in the heat exchanger, air to air intercooler, the plumbing and all the fluids and it will be pretty close to 500lbs if not more.

Edit: The Turbonetics T-3 turbos are only using 7lbs of boost. At 11.4:1 compression, it's possible to run 7lbs of boost without touching the internals. The thing is, they never really show the engine that much because this is a working GM Ecotech prototype NOT a Jay Leno special edition. Similar to the Twinforce (now Ecoboost) 3.5 V6 monster Ford had in 2008-2009. GM should rename "Ecotec" to "Lenoboost" to gain 10 extra horsepower...
Yeah I was slow on posting.

The only good thing about the turbo v6 is fuel economy. But don't get me wrong I love the Leno car, drop a V8 in there and It would be on its way to a great track car.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:06 PM   #34
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Yeah I was slow on posting.

The only good thing about the turbo v6 is fuel economy. But don't get me wrong I love the Leno car, drop a V8 in there and It would be on its way to a great track car.
SuperCarEnthusiast was right though, the Jay Leno Camaro was built for road racing.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:50 PM   #35
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SuperCarEnthusiast was right though, the Jay Leno Camaro was built for road racing.
It was but I don't see GM doing it as a Z28, and I would like to see some more suspension upgrades
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Old 05-12-2011, 12:25 AM   #36
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I would think that replacing the wheels, exhaust and intake with lightweight components could shave about 70-80lbs. U lose those garbage cans out back as well as the heavy exhaust manifolds and replace them with LT headers muff delete and replace the very handsome but heavy as heeeell wheels with lightweight wheels, and u have a lighter machine. I know my CAI intake is much lighter than stock. Even if the beefed up suspension chips away at all of the weight savings and we have a car that is very close to an SS in weight then I still think we have a very formidable package.
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Old 05-12-2011, 02:00 AM   #37
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I would think that replacing the wheels, exhaust and intake with lightweight components could shave about 70-80lbs. U lose those garbage cans out back as well as the heavy exhaust manifolds and replace them with LT headers muff delete and replace the very handsome but heavy as heeeell wheels with lightweight wheels, and u have a lighter machine. I know my CAI intake is much lighter than stock. Even if the beefed up suspension chips away at all of the weight savings and we have a car that is very close to an SS in weight then I still think we have a very formidable package.
Thatís the plan, being close to the SS in weight. In the base case scenario, not saying this would happen but, aftermarket exhaust (not street legal) can see a weight savings of about 60lbs. Thatís with no cats, lightweight mufflers, long tubes and lighter pipe all the way back. Stock, street legal exhaust wouldn't lose that much but a good 30lbs would be believable. Wheels and tires are a good place to drop weight. Although its an expensive way to save weight (as is exhaust), 30lbs is another solid number that is very doable in the wheels and tires. 60lbs is a pretty good dent into the weight gained by upgrading the suspension. If the Z28 could fall between 3840-3880lbs, it would perform very well against other vehicles in its class.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:11 AM   #38
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Something tells me we will see the Z28 in earl July and not even know it, well accept for the fact we have seen it before.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:06 AM   #39
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Something tells me we will see the Z28 in earl July and not even know it, well accept for the fact we have seen it before.
I think that a February 2013 release would be a better route. GM is releasing the ZL1 next February and surely will be releasing another limited edition Synergy Camaro in May 2012 that leaves a nice little gap come February. The main reason they want to release their performance models at the end of Winter (or mid-model year) is because it gives GM enough time to get the car into consumers hands right before the racing season starts. This is why Ford usually starts the new model year from January to April. It allows those who are racing to start the new season with a brand new car.

I am also expecting Camaro sales to be pretty burnt out by then so a new exciting model will be good to turn some attention towards the Camaro at that time. Don't forget the 2014 Mustang III spy photos and info will be popping up around that time so a Z28 announcement would pretty much be the only thing GM has left in their arsenal to fight back by then.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:12 AM   #40
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I think that a February 2013 release would be a better route. GM is releasing the ZL1 next February and surely will be releasing another limited edition Synergy Camaro in May 2012 that leaves a nice little gap come February. The main reason they want to release their performance models at the end of Winter (or mid-model year) is because it gives GM enough time to get the car into consumers hands right before the racing season starts. This is why Ford usually starts the new model year from January to April. It allows those who are racing to start the new season with a brand new car.

I am also expecting Camaro sales to be pretty burnt out by then so a new exciting model will be good to turn some attention towards the Camaro at that time. Don't forget the 2014 Mustang III spy photos and info will be popping up around that time so a Z28 announcement would pretty much be the only thing GM has left in their arsenal to fight back by then.
It wont be announced, I just think we will see the body design in Transformers 3
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Old 05-13-2011, 12:41 PM   #41
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It wont be announced, I just think we will see the body design in Transformers 3
There is no way GM will let the Z28 come to market unannounced. This will be the pinnacle of the 5th Gen models, far surpasses the media attention of the ZL1. It will be the most talked about 5th Gen Camaro, it will be on every car magazines cover, there will be a prime time spot on Motorweek and Speed TV about the history and the making of the Z28. Then there will be the ultimate comparison between the Boss 302 and the Z28 in every single publication known to man... They will not let this car go unnoticed...
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Old 05-13-2011, 12:48 PM   #42
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Wonder if it will have this spoiler.. I kind of like it
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Old 05-13-2011, 12:51 PM   #43
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Wonder if it will have this spoiler.. I kind of like it
Which spoiler? The Jay Leno? I like that spoiler too... It's kinda like a GM 3/4 Blade spoiler. I liked the full length blade spoiler too.
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:16 PM   #44
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You are right about the marketing. The Z28 is worth a ton in GM attention getting just like the Boss is for Ford. To me (a marketing guy) it seems obvious that the Z28 has the ability to get and keep interest going. Thats why I know a Z28 will happen. GM is more about making $$$ than pleasing enthusiast, but if you can do both you most defiantly should. Heritage is the card the big three have to continue to play as the foreign competition has little to none here in he states.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:26 AM   #45
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There is no way GM will let the Z28 come to market unannounced. This will be the pinnacle of the 5th Gen models, far surpasses the media attention of the ZL1. It will be the most talked about 5th Gen Camaro, it will be on every car magazines cover, there will be a prime time spot on Motorweek and Speed TV about the history and the making of the Z28. Then there will be the ultimate comparison between the Boss 302 and the Z28 in every single publication known to man... They will not let this car go unnoticed...
Not say it will come to market with the movie, what i mean is that it will most likely be what the Z28 preproduction model will look like when the Z28 is announced years from now.
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:53 PM   #46
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I think that Chevrolet could make the panels out of aluminium and save around 120 pounds or a little more; plus they can do the lightweight wheels too like in the ZL1 has - possibly 50-60 pounds in savings; so totally looking at 200 pounds in weight reduction - which will make it very competitive with the Boss 302; even with a small V8 block inside but if they have a dual twin V6; it would be very nice indeed.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:22 AM   #47
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I think that Chevrolet could make the panels out of aluminium and save around 120 pounds or a little more; plus they can do the lightweight wheels too like in the ZL1 has - possibly 50-60 pounds in savings; so totally looking at 200 pounds in weight reduction - which will make it very competitive with the Boss 302; even with a small V8 block inside but if they have a dual twin V6; it would be very nice indeed.
Why?? As has already been discussed, that configuration of the V6 is as heavy if not heavier than an LS3, so I don't see any advantage there. And at this point in time I would not be willing to purchase a V6 Z/28 (that could change in a few years as CAFE takes it's toll on what's available).
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:16 AM   #48
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Why?? As has already been discussed, that configuration of the V6 is as heavy if not heavier than an LS3, so I don't see any advantage there. And at this point in time I would not be willing to purchase a V6 Z/28 (that could change in a few years as CAFE takes it's toll on what's available).
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As I have stated before a V6 Z/28 would be an epic failure.

I believe Chevrolet has to get the ZL1 out and in the hands of costumers before any hope that a new Z/28 will even exist.
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:29 PM   #49
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I say go for it and build a 427 Z28 while time is left (CAFE tick, tock, tick, tock).
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:26 PM   #50
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I say go for it and build a 427 Z28 while time is left (CAFE tick, tock, tick, tock).
We want to build a Z/28, not another iteration of the ZL1!
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