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Old 05-20-2011, 08:16 PM   #51
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The Z06 does quite well on the track with a LS7.
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:41 PM   #52
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I can't afford any of this, but this is a good conversation.

When I think weight I think of a quote by David Buschur: weight reduction is like free horsepower.

An aluminum roof and hood (which I believe the ZL1 will have *sorry I'm new to Camaros*) would be a way to start. Forged one piece 19" wheels would be another. Lose the power seats (as in the Boss). There has to be 100 or so pounds there easy.
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:12 PM   #53
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I can't afford any of this, but this is a good conversation.

When I think weight I think of a quote by David Buschur: weight reduction is like free horsepower.

An aluminum roof and hood (which I believe the ZL1 will have *sorry I'm new to Camaros*) would be a way to start. Forged one piece 19" wheels would be another. Lose the power seats (as in the Boss). There has to be 100 or so pounds there easy.
All Camaros already have an aluminum hood.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:51 PM   #54
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The new weight saving stereo system for the new Z/28.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:55 PM   #55
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The new weight saving stereo system for the new Z/28.
wouldnt this be better and lighter..
Thanko Sport Micro MP3 player
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:12 PM   #56
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More weight saving devices.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:11 AM   #57
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You are right about the marketing. The Z28 is worth a ton in GM attention getting just like the Boss is for Ford. To me (a marketing guy) it seems obvious that the Z28 has the ability to get and keep interest going. Thats why I know a Z28 will happen. GM is more about making $$$ than pleasing enthusiast, but if you can do both you most defiantly should. Heritage is the card the big three have to continue to play as the foreign competition has little to none here in he states.
Well as a stock holder and an employee, as much as I'd like to do pro bono work for enthusiasts, you have to use your capital wisely. If you can't make money by investing in any brand or model why would you? Charity

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I think that Chevrolet could make the panels out of aluminium and save around 120 pounds or a little more; plus they can do the lightweight wheels too like in the ZL1 has - possibly 50-60 pounds in savings; so totally looking at 200 pounds in weight reduction - which will make it very competitive with the Boss 302; even with a small V8 block inside but if they have a dual twin V6; it would be very nice indeed.
YOU can do that, but GM likely won't. Any Z28 will have to perform certain basic functions as a road car. MOST people that would buy one will never take it to the track unless it soooooo track focussed that very few people would buy one. So there is that balancing issue.

Again, my POV, the Z28 never used premium materials, never deleted things that made it a great road going car as well. It "selectively" added hardware to make it what it was and prevented you from adding some things that added weight.

So unless what you are all asking for is a car you can trailer to the track every weekend and isn't even street legal, you are going to have A/C, etc. And to add build combinations in the assembly plant that now include NOT installing parts would also be costly.

This need to take weight out of the car is just Mustang envy. Everyone wants the Camaro to weigh what a Mustang weighs. But is the Boss lightweighted? Is it full of carbon fiber and magnesium parts?

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Why?? As has already been discussed, that configuration of the V6 is as heavy if not heavier than an LS3, so I don't see any advantage there. And at this point in time I would not be willing to purchase a V6 Z/28 (that could change in a few years as CAFE takes it's toll on what's available).
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A Turbo V6 might make the HP, but coming out of the corners, if they are slow corners, you'll miss displacement..................A LOT.

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The Z06 does quite well on the track with a LS7.
Because that's what it was designed to do. But it has a radio, full Corvette safety features. But it does have an alumium frame, and CF all over the place. That's why a Z06 carries a $25,000 premium over a base Corvette.

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I can't afford any of this, but this is a good conversation.

When I think weight I think of a quote by David Buschur: weight reduction is like free horsepower.
An aluminum roof and hood (which I believe the ZL1 will have *sorry I'm new to Camaros*) would be a way to start. Forged one piece 19" wheels would be another. Lose the power seats (as in the Boss). There has to be 100 or so pounds there easy.
The problem is, most weight reduction from the factory isn't free.

I'll give you a couple of examples. C5 Z06 had a titanium exhaust. Saved 30 pounds..........................cost over $1,000.

Current Corvette has the 2 stage exhaust. Adds 6 HP. Cost? A lot and no weight reduction.

GM has to pass Federal Standads for Noise Pass By. And to balance between low mass, low restriction isn't as easy as what you can do in the aftermarket. You have to quit assuming because you can, that GM can. That's not always true. Most aftermarket parts never see the testing GM has to go through to ensure your cars are durable and trouble free.

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More weight saving devices.
Now that's a weeeeee bit old school there.
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:49 AM   #58
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More weight saving devices.
Hasn't it been said that the components that make up power windows weigh less than crank design?
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:51 AM   #59
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Thanks Number 3.

I think as a group we are interested in taking on the Boss at their pricepoint. What Camaro would you/GM build in order to do that?
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Old 05-26-2011, 11:53 AM   #60
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What can be done to build a less expensive LS7?
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:24 PM   #61
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What can be done to build a less expensive LS7?
Need volume. That's the big reason for the Wixom plant where the LS7/LS9 are hand built. Maybe 4,000 LS7s right now and 1,000 LS9s. Would need substantially more volume for the LS7 to get cheaper.

Or eliminate all those nice titanium goodies on the inside.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:26 PM   #62
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Look folks this thread isn't about losing weight. Stop saying the mustang only weighs so much and the Z28 needs to weigh that much, IT WONT HAPPEN. The camaro is a much bigger car. All this talk about losing weight does not help bring the Z28 to life, it only hurts it.
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:44 PM   #63
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Need volume. That's the big reason for the Wixom plant where the LS7/LS9 are hand built. Maybe 4,000 LS7s right now and 1,000 LS9s. Would need substantially more volume for the LS7 to get cheaper.

Or eliminate all those nice titanium goodies on the inside.
So Number 3, is it your thought that a Z-28 would have a lightly modified LS3?
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:11 PM   #64
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Thanks Number 3.

I think as a group we are interested in taking on the Boss at their pricepoint. What Camaro would you/GM build in order to do that?
That is exactly the problem. If the "Big Idea" is to BEAT the boss, then you need something other than an LS3 under the hood.

But to do a Z28 with parts bin engineering and not eliminating anything really already on the car:

I'd take some parts from the ZL1. ZL1 Chassis minus the MR Shocks and the ZL1 brakes (big mass increase) would make me happy. That would at least be the foundation. You could go with the FE4 suspension bits. Not really sure the difference in FE4 and ZL1 (excluding MR).

I might then add the 2 stage exhaust assuming it could be done with out a big mass penalty and that it in fact added the same HP the Corvette sees.

I'd probably limit it to 1SS, but the marketing and sales guys would want you to be able to option the car up for more profit. So option restriction would have to be personal restraint.

But to get a little bit of mass out, I'd go 1SS minus the following:

Engine cover
Sound deadener (mastic patches, spray on etc.)
Trunk trim

Modfied parts (some would require investment by GM)

Thinner dash mat
LS manual seats
Light weight battery (reduced cold start performance)
Thinner glass
Lighter (less durable) carpets
Lighter weight forged wheels
Fixed rear seat (non folding, eliminate the cost and weight for latches)

Things you can't touch

Airbag or OnStar. Both part of GMs corporate safety strategy. GM shouldn't violate that, even for a Z28.

I'd leave the body alone, no CF, no added aluminum etc. Waste of money for the weight reduction from the factory.

So if you showed personal restraint in options, my list above might save you 75 to 100 pounds and you'd have a great chassis, brakes and an extra 6 HP.

Now the if I was GM or should I say if it were my decision, I'd have ready to sell you through the dealer:

CF hood, fenders and decklid. Would run you about 4 to 5,000 (my guess)
I'd sell you a GMPP Calibration that would be warrantied (similar to my Sky Redline but that was mostly a boost increase on the Turbo)
CAI and Exhaust tuned for a verified HP gain, again warrantied.

And with that you'd save maybe another 100 pounds.........maybe, and maybe get 15 or 20 HP bump.

So that would be my play. So all in, the Dealer installed bits would run you maybe 7,000 extra and you'd have a car 150 pound lighter and maybe 20 HP up on an LS3, with the chassis and brakes from the ZL1.

Hows that?
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:19 PM   #65
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That is exactly the problem. If the "Big Idea" is to BEAT the boss, then you need something other than an LS3 under the hood.

But to do a Z28 with parts bin engineering and not eliminating anything really already on the car:

I'd take some parts from the ZL1. ZL1 Chassis minus the MR Shocks and the ZL1 brakes (big mass increase) would make me happy. That would at least be the foundation.

I might then add the 2 stage exhaust assuming it could be done with out a big mass penalty and that it in fact added the same HP the Corvette sees.

I'd probably limit it to 1SS, but the marketing and sales guys would want you to be able to option the car up for more profit. So option restriction would have to be personal restraint.

But to get a little bit of mass out, I'd go 1SS minus the following:

Engine cover
Sound deadener (mastic patches, spray on etc.)
Trunk trim

Modfied parts (some would require investment by GM)

Thinner dash mat
LS manual seats
Light weight battery (reduced cold start performance)
Thinner glass
Lighter (less durable) carpets
Lighter weight forged wheels
Fixed rear seat (non folding, eliminate the cost and weight for latches)

Things you can't touch

Airbag or OnStar. Both part of GMs corporate safety strategy. GM shouldn't violate that, even for a Z28.

I'd leave the body alone, no CF, no added aluminum etc. Waste of money for the weight reduction from the factory.

So if you showed personal restraint in options, my list above might save you 75 to 100 pounds and you'd have a great chassis, brakes and an extra 6 HP.

Now the if I was GM or should I say if it were my decision, I'd have ready to sell you through the dealer:

CF hood, fenders and decklid. Would run you about 4 to 5,000 (my guess)
I'd sell you a GMPP Calibration that would be warrantied (similar to my Sky Redline but that was mostly a boost increase on the Turbo)
CAI and Exhaust tuned for a verified HP gain, again warrantied.

And with that you'd save maybe another 100 pounds.........maybe, and maybe get 15 or 20 HP bump.

So that would be my play. So all in, the Dealer installed bits would run you maybe 7,000 extra and you'd have a car 150 pound lighter and maybe 20 HP up on an LS3, with the chassis and brakes from the ZL1.

Hows that?
lol doesnt sound worth the effort...of course test results from gm would yeld better sells....they threw the corvette motor in the camaro why not the 5.5 liter thats going in the c7 model....probably not mass produced enough...what about lighter wheels? that alone can save a 100lbs easy
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:20 PM   #66
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So Number 3, is it your thought that a Z-28 would have a lightly modified LS3?
Would have? That sounds a bit more than theoretical to me. I'm just suggesting that if beating the Boss is the play, then you need more HP. How you get it? Good question.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:25 PM   #67
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Look folks this thread isn't about losing weight. Stop saying the mustang only weighs so much and the Z28 needs to weigh that much, IT WONT HAPPEN. The camaro is a much bigger car. All this talk about losing weight does not help bring the Z28 to life, it only hurts it.
Bliz,
I was joking on all of my posts about weight reduction. I just want the car.

Number 3,
I know the "thunder stealing" Z/28 isn't going to happen until the ZL1 is out and selling.

It was brought up before about the 1SS with additional goodies added and I know it would work.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:38 PM   #68
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lol doesnt sound worth the effort...of course test results from gm would yeld better sells....they threw the corvette motor in the camaro why not the 5.5 liter thats going in the c7 model....probably not mass produced enough...what about lighter wheels? that alone can save a 100lbs easy
Well you are suggesting a motor that exists only for a certain racing classification that doesn't currently exist anywhere in production. So that is only adding myth on top of speculation. Besides, you think a 5.5 L can somehow make a lot more power than a 6.2 L? That's probably not likely in a production version of the C6R race engine. Even the race engine is only making 485 HP and it is simply a version of the LS7. It was accomlished by shortening the crankshaft stroke and reducing the cylinder bore diameter. So to ask for this engine you might as well just ask for an LS7.

And any wheel that is 25 pounds lighter than stock would be hard pressed to meet GM's standards. Current fronts weigh 31 pounds and the rears are 36. So what you are saying is "easy" is a 6 pound front wheel and an 11 pound rear. Not really possible IMO.

The current wheels weigh a combined 134 pounds, saving 100 will be farrrrr from easy.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:43 PM   #69
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Well you are using a motor that exists only for a certain racing classification that doesn't currently exist anywhere in production. So that is only adding myth on top of speculation.

And any wheel that is 25 pounds lighter than stock would be hard pressed to meet GM's standards. Current fronts weigh 31 pounds and the rears are 36. So what you are saying is "easy" is a 6 pound front wheel and an 11 pound rear. Not really possible IMO.

The current wheels weigh a combined 134 pounds, saving 100 will be farrrrr from easy.
lol 6 lb front wheel would be impressive but your right not fesiable.....can you use the ls9 heads to increase flow, but not only increase the powerband as well...but use the lsa without the supercharger with ls9 heads hmmmm get me thinking....what are the standards if you dont mind so we dont run into any roadblocks that might help us out
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:49 PM   #70
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Bliz,
I was joking on all of my posts about weight reduction. I just want the car.

Number 3,
I know the "thunder stealing" Z/28 isn't going to happen until the ZL1 is out and selling.

It was brought up before about the 1SS with additional goodies added and I know it would work.
That post was not projected at you, I know your stance on this.
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:21 PM   #71
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So Number 3, what if we had an LS7 stripped back?
How much could be saved cost wise? And where would HP end up?
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:44 PM   #72
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The real question isn't about loosing weight its will people accept a 3850lb LS3 powered Camaro as a Z28.

It's not likley the 5th Gen is gonna be able to shed any real weight (within 100lbs) and it's also not likely it's going to get a LS7 if it's going to compete with the BOSS on price.

SO the question becomes will people or enthusiasts buy a "Z28" if it competes with the BOSS only in price and heritage but not in actual performance. Would it matter to a potential buyer?
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:50 PM   #73
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The real question isn't about loosing weight its will people accept a 3850lb LS3 powered Camaro as a Z28.

It's not likley the 5th Gen is gonna be able to shed any real weight (within 100lbs) and it's also not likely it's going to get a LS7 if it's going to compete with the BOSS on price.

SO the question becomes will people or enthusiasts buy a "Z28" if it competes with the BOSS only in price and heritage but not in actual performance.
That, sir, is the $64,000 question.

If you compare to Gen 3 and 4 Camaros, it was basically a nice chassis enhancement and not much more. It seems to be Boss Envy that has everyone worked up right now, which is driving, seemingly, the "gotta lose weight" and "gotta have an LS7" comments.

Boss was a very nice effort by Ford. Just not sure if it were my company I'd send capital chasing after a very low volume car unless I knew I had a really good buiness case.
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:13 PM   #74
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Just because you cant lose 300 pounds does not mean you cant make it handle like it lost 300 pounds. Where is that JusticePete guy when you need him....
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Old 05-26-2011, 06:27 PM   #75
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Number 3, it sounds like if we want Boss 302 performance at or near Boss 302 price that we will need to get a Boss 302. Just wondering why Ford seems to be so much nimbler and able to engineer performance...Don't take it personally, I am a GMI graduate (1984) but seems like GM can't compete well in the niches...I wish I could be on the Camaro Team to help overcome this...
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