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Old 07-04-2011, 08:05 PM   #1
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QUESTION: Is New ZL1 going to be faster than....

the original ZL1 from 1969?

Here is the link to the original ZL1 in the 1/4 mile

1969 ZL1 vs 69 Yenko -


69 ZL1 vs 69 L88 -
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:02 PM   #2
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Thanks for the great video. The new ZL1 will have to run strong to stay with it's predecessor. The new ZL1 will have to turn off the A/C, turn off the iPod, close the sunroof, set the traction control, set the launch control, fine tune the HUD, set performance traction to '5' Race, turn off active handling, set suspension mode to 'Track', adjust the drink in the drink holder, watch the boost gauge, lower the pressure in the 305's, watch the shift light and hang on. No Problem!
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:07 PM   #3
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Those two may be called 69 zl , but most likely have something other than the 69 engine under there , and by the # that SCOTT is talking about this old ZL will not have a chance
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:09 PM   #4
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The fastest STOCK ZL-1 times I've ever read about put them at the bottom 13s... I know full exhaust and tuning dropped seconds off tthat time with slicks. I'm not sure what to make from the times in those videos but if the times I'm thinking abut are really conservative, then ZL1 is going to havd to use every bit of technology it possesses in order to keep up. I maintai that I think those were not stock-style cars but J could be wrong.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:13 PM   #5
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Looks like he was running some slicks in the first video..... Look around the 10 second mark





Just found this on discoverys how stuff works web site...

"The entire car carried the full 5-year/50,000-mile warranty and was fully street-legal. With the factory's stock dual exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; headers, slicks, and tuning got it into the 11.6s at 122 mph"

http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/...camaro-zl1.htm
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:17 PM   #6
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Well what are actual CTS-V owners running stock? Those damn magazine tests have it in the low to mid 12's. I thought all the old ZL1's needed to get into the 11's was slicks?
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:18 PM   #7
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Exactly, 'Mac. It sounds like there are some loose converters in those cars, too. I don't know what the factory stall speed was in those 400s, but they sounded like 4000 stalls or something. The shift extension seemed pretty high.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:40 PM   #8
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Those times are pretty easy to do with a big block of that era. I do a full second quicker than those cars with not much more cam, dual plane intake, 1 3/4" headers thru the 3" X pipe with mufflers on pump gas. Difference is I have a 3800 stall, manual reverse valve body, t-brake and 2 step to get a 1.4x sixty. I am also 300#'s heavier than those cars.

For the ZL1 to get into the mid 11's it has to hook at least 1.6x sixties. It will need slicks for sure and a skilled driver to hook a stick, not sure if the auto will have enough stall and gear to launch a 1.6x. I predict 1.75 and 11.99 with a good 120 mph based on the published HP.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:06 AM   #9
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Those times are pretty easy to do with a big block of that era. I do a full second quicker than those cars with not much more cam, dual plane intake, 1 3/4" headers thru the 3" X pipe with mufflers on pump gas. Difference is I have a 3800 stall, manual reverse valve body, t-brake and 2 step to get a 1.4x sixty. I am also 300#'s heavier than those cars.

For the ZL1 to get into the mid 11's it has to hook at least 1.6x sixties. It will need slicks for sure and a skilled driver to hook a stick, not sure if the auto will have enough stall and gear to launch a 1.6x. I predict 1.75 and 11.99 with a good 120 mph based on the published HP.
I'm certainly not questioning the ability of those cars to run those times, however, I still ask if those are stock cars because I have yet to see any published times as low as those. I have an old Hot Rod that had a ZL-1 car that was running those times after the kind of tweaking already posted in this thread. That's one thing. If we're going to compare generations, though, we should compare stock-to-stock, and that's where I think ZL-1 would get a serious beating at the strip.

I don't really think we need to go there when we starting thinking about a track... My highest respect goes to ZL-1; please don't mistake my words. ZL1 is the new King, as it should be. It's 40 years advanced, so I expect it to be.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:35 AM   #10
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Interesting thread ....

The well known free lance writer, Ro McGonegal, writing for Super Stock & Drag Illustrated in 1970, referred to the ZL1 Camaro as “Hellboy”! It ran 11.60s at 124 mph with open long tube headers – worth 100 horsepower according to Ro - on slicks with some carb tuning. The car was tuned by Dick Harrell out of the Fred Gibb Chevy Dealership (Kansas City). I've talked with Ro at length about driving that car on that day, and the wildest part was how Dick asked him to drive the thing: neutal drop the the Turbo 400 with the engine at 6,000 RPM. Ro told me almost put it in the wall three times, then Dick took over, ripping a string of 11.60s.

Stock for stock, the new car will murder an original ZL1 - just because of the tires. Give them both slicks, and it's going to be a great race.

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Old 07-05-2011, 09:56 AM   #11
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Interesting thread ....

The well known free lance writer, Ro McGonegal, writing for Super Stock & Drag Illustrated in 1970, referred to the ZL1 Camaro as “Hellboy”! It ran 11.60s at 124 mph with open long tube headers – worth 100 horsepower according to Ro - on slicks with some carb tuning. The car was tuned by Dick Harrell out of the Fred Gibb Chevy Dealership (Kansas City). I've talked with Ro at length about driving that car on that day, and the wildest part was how Dick asked him to drive the thing: neutal drop the the Turbo 400 with the engine at 6,000 RPM. Ro told me almost put it in the wall three times, then Dick took over, ripping a string of 11.60s.

Stock for stock, the new car will murder an original ZL1 - just because of the tires. Give them both slicks, and it's going to be a great race.

Happy Bench Racing!
Wasn't it Dick Harrell that pushed GM for 9560? Then he got the surprise of his life when he started getting the invoices for the car he pretty much asked for? Yeah - the manifolds were like L78s with square ports and ZL-1 ports were round, so there's a bit of a problem, there, LOL!!!

That's still not stock, though, and I'm not certain a tire change would still be close enough. I think I only remember trap speeds around 110 MPH. I believe ZL1 will have trap spees close to 10 MPH higher than that.

One of the things I have a little bit of trouble with, is how GM is marketing the car. To me, ZL1 is nothing like ZL-1, and to liken the two doesn't make too much sense. ZL-1 was a stripper with a single exceptional attribute, the motor. ZL1 is quite the opposite, with technoloy bristling at every corner of the car. It is not a one-trick-pony. However, because I'm a strip guy, that's where I'll be spending most of my time, so ZL-1 would've been perfect for me, if I were alive and had the money.

One thing is for certain: ZL-1 was built to do one thing, and it did it the BEST. Wasn't the first Pro Stock season in '69 or '70 won by Bill ''Grumpy" Jenkins in a ZL-1? At least I remember that ZL-1 was the first Pro Stocker to break the 9s. Enough said
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:25 AM   #12
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Would 60's era slicks be better or worse than today's better street tires?
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:26 AM   #13
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Does the ZL1's trap speed seem low?
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:56 AM   #14
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One of the things I have a little bit of trouble with, is how GM is marketing the car. To me, ZL1 is nothing like ZL-1, and to liken the two doesn't make too much sense. ZL-1 was a stripper with a single exceptional attribute, the motor. ZL1 is quite the opposite, with technoloy bristling at every corner of the car. It is not a one-trick-pony. However, because I'm a strip guy, that's where I'll be spending most of my time, so ZL-1 would've been perfect for me, if I were alive and had the money.
The new ZL1 is going to be such an impressive car is because it will be a great all around performance vehicle. It will perform well on the track, at the strip, and will be more than drivable on the street.

The original 9560 COPOs and the ZL-1 and L88 Corvettes were meant for off-road use only, and were not really street-able at all. They came equipped with warning stickers indicating that engine damage might occur if less than 103 octane gasoline was used, and they would overheat if they had to idle for any length of time or if one attempted to drive them in stop and go traffic.

One really needed to trailer those vehicles to the race track. Whereas, with the new ZL1, one can drive it to the track or strip, put on a set of race ready tires, set the MR to sport, and it'll be ready to race. When done, just remount the OEM F1 tires, set the MR back to tour, and it's ready to drive home.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:15 AM   #15
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The new one will certainly stop better and go around corners better. It will also ride nice, have air conditioning and a warranty. It is much safer, better mileage...
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:25 AM   #16
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Would 60's era slicks be better or worse than today's better street tires?
If they were as wide as todays tires, I bet they'd be a relatively fair match. I would guess they're not nearly as safe, being bias-ply, however, that's not your point. I think rim diameter would also have a fair amount of relavence, too, since these short 20"s aren't going to allow much sidewall flex off the line. I would be nice to get some opinions from those that have experience, though, to get a better idea

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The new ZL1 is going to be such an impressive car is because it will be a great all around performance vehicle. It will perform well on the track, at the strip, and will be more than drivable on the street.

The original 9560 COPOs and the ZL-1 and L88 Corvettes were meant for off-road use only, and were not really street-able at all. They came equipped with warning stickers indicating that engine damage might occur if less than 103 octane gasoline was used, and they would overheat if they had to idle for any length of time or if one attempted to drive them in stop and go traffic.

One really needed to trailer those vehicles to the race track. Whereas, with the new ZL1, one can drive it to the track or strip, put on a set of race ready tires, set the MR to sport, and it'll be ready to race. When done, just remount the OEM F1 tires, set the MR back to tour, and it's ready to drive home.
Exactly... I think I remember L88s ('Vettes) didn't even come with fan shrouds because they thought they caused drag for top speed or something... Great points, as ususal. This really isn't a fair comparison, but fun to talk about.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:50 AM   #17
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Exactly... I think I remember L88s ('Vettes) didn't even come with fan shrouds because they thought they caused drag for top speed or something... Great points, as ususal. This really isn't a fair comparison, but fun to talk about.
Your memory is correct. During testing of the L88s it was determined that at race speeds the engines were cooled more effectively without the fan shroud in place, and therefore, as a result, the L88s were delivered from the factory without fan shrouds. Of course, the side effect of not having a fan shroud in place was that at non race speeds (e.g., at idle or in regular street driving) the engine cooling was not effective at all, and overheating occurred very quickly when driving on surface streets.

It really will be nice to have all the performance of the ZL1 with excellent street drive-ability, including A/C (no A/C on the old solid lifter Chevy's, with the sole exception of the 1972 LT-1) and a good sound system.
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:10 PM   #18
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Thanks for the great video. The new ZL1 will have to run strong to stay with it's predecessor. The new ZL1 will have to turn off the A/C, turn off the iPod, close the sunroof, set the traction control, set the launch control, fine tune the HUD, set performance traction to '5' Race, turn off active handling, set suspension mode to 'Track', adjust the drink in the drink holder, watch the boost gauge, lower the pressure in the 305's, watch the shift light and hang on. No Problem!

Well said...
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:41 PM   #19
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The ZL1 is going to be a great and lightning fast car. Is it going to be faster than (fill in the blank). There's always someone faster!
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:50 PM   #20
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Exactly, 'Mac. It sounds like there are some loose converters in those cars, too. I don't know what the factory stall speed was in those 400s, but they sounded like 4000 stalls or something. The shift extension seemed pretty high.
The links above are broken, *but* judging by the title(s) I'm pretty certain the first video (ZL1 v. Yenko) was taken by my buddy and is of our yellow Yenko versus Peter Simpson's white ZL-1 powered COPO Camaro. We both run in the Pure Stock class, so we're stuck with the stock converters (2200 rpm)...as well as stock exhaust manifolds, F70 Polyglass tires, etc, etc...and converter stall/flash speed has nothing to do with shift rpm. Anyway, that video was at VMP a couple years ago...was cold & wet that weekend, so no great 60' times. The white ZL1 has gone 11.5x's since then while our yellow Yenko has gone 11.7s...

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The original 9560 COPOs and the ZL-1 and L88 Corvettes were meant for off-road use only, and were not really street-able at all. They came equipped with warning stickers indicating that engine damage might occur if less than 103 octane gasoline was used, and they would overheat if they had to idle for any length of time or if one attempted to drive them in stop and go traffic.

One really needed to trailer those vehicles to the race track. Whereas, with the new ZL1, one can drive it to the track or strip, put on a set of race ready tires, set the MR to sport, and it'll be ready to race. When done, just remount the OEM F1 tires, set the MR back to tour, and it's ready to drive home.
The aluminum components actually make for *less* heating issues. Even on hot days the white ZL1 above will actually be letting his car idle in the staging lanes because the aluminum sheds it so fast, all while I'm dumping ice on my intake, spraying the radiator, etc, trying to keep all of my cast iron parts from melting down.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #21
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The links above are broken, *but* judging by the title(s) I'm pretty certain the first video (ZL1 v. Yenko) was taken by my buddy and is of our yellow Yenko versus Peter Simpson's white ZL-1 powered COPO Camaro. We both run in the Pure Stock class, so we're stuck with the stock converters (2200 rpm)...as well as stock exhaust manifolds, F70 Polyglass tires, etc, etc...and converter stall/flash speed has nothing to do with shift rpm. Anyway, that video was at VMP a couple years ago...was cold & wet that weekend, so no great 60' times. The white ZL1 has gone 11.5x's since then while our yellow Yenko has gone 11.7s...


The aluminum components actually make for *less* heating issues. Even on hot days the white ZL1 above will actually be letting his car idle in the staging lanes because the aluminum sheds it so fast, all while I'm dumping ice on my intake, spraying the radiator, etc, trying to keep all of my cast iron parts from melting down.
According to the company who made the converter for my car, stall speed does have influence on shift extension - I didn't say shift RPM, FWIW. Can you tell me if these are 100% stock cars, because that is the question that still remains for me? If it isn't the way it left the factory, it isn't stock, to me.

I don't think the point was if aluminum was better at regulating heat than iron. The point was, if I'm not mistaken, that these cars were not meant to drive on the street. The cams were wild, carbs' were meant for track duty, and cooling system designed to manage heat at speed, not in traffic. No one said aluminum was not better than iron for cooling.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:04 PM   #22
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I'm not sure if this is the racing body rules that you race under, but they're relatively flexible: http://www.purestockdrags.com/index....d=48&Itemid=53
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:03 PM   #23
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The aluminum components actually make for *less* heating issues. Even on hot days the white ZL1 above will actually be letting his car idle in the staging lanes because the aluminum sheds it so fast, all while I'm dumping ice on my intake, spraying the radiator, etc, trying to keep all of my cast iron parts from melting down.
Yes, aluminum is better with regard to heat dissipation than iron is. That doesn't mean that a ZL-1 won't have cooling issues when driven in "stop and go" driving conditions.


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I don't think the point was if aluminum was better at regulating heat than iron. The point was, if I'm not mistaken, that these cars were not meant to drive on the street. The cams were wild, carbs' were meant for track duty, and cooling system designed to manage heat at speed, not in traffic. No one said aluminum was not better than iron for cooling.
Exactly, both the L88 and ZL-1 engines were designed and built for racing, and not intended for street use or with normal pump gas. Most of the design trade offs were made with operation under racing conditions in mind, as opposed to operation under normal street driving conditions.

The new ZL1 is being designed for both racing and street use.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:31 PM   #24
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One of the things I have a little bit of trouble with, is how GM is marketing the car. To me, ZL1 is nothing like ZL-1, and to liken the two doesn't make too much sense. ZL-1 was a stripper with a single exceptional attribute, the motor. ZL1 is quite the opposite, with technoloy bristling at every corner of the car. It is not a one-trick-pony.
I see what you are saying, and I don't disagree with you, but the ZL-1 is really no different than the Shelby GT500 in that regard. It is all bells and whistles now, too.

It has to be to compete in this market. A stripper car at this price point will not sell
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:24 PM   #25
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I see what you are saying, and I don't disagree with you, but the ZL-1 is really no different than the Shelby GT500 in that regard. It is all bells and whistles now, too.

It has to be to compete in this market. A stripper car at this price point will not sell
I don't know if I think the GT500 has become as all-around as ZL1 looks like it's going to be because of ZL1, or vise versa. I definately agree the GT500 has all the bells and whistles, gadget-wise, but performance-wise, not so much, at least right now. I mean, really, it just seems like Ford just took a GT motor, jambed it into a truck block, and threw a smaller blower on it; stuck a few FRPP suspension parts on the car, then then called it a GT500. ZL1, IMO, is much more. It's not SS with the FE4 suspension goodies the '12s are getting with an LSA - it's so much more. I don't recall hearing about any special aerodynamic development for the GT500, like ZL1 has had. Active suspension is something the GT500 doesn't have. Great brakes and the multi-national chassis tuning and development ZL1 has enjoyed are other aspects I don't recall learning about the GT500 sharing during it's development, either. The aluminum block (with it's special cylinder coating) and it's EPS weren't much to write home about in it's current version, IMO. LSA get higher quality aluminum in the block, along with the deck plate honing, special heads and all the other goodies we know LSA and the rest of the car to have just give me more reason to have the opinions I have.

Regardless - it's still to early for me to celebrate ZL1's greatness I'm sure there will be a celebration, though. I'm fairly certain ZL1 is going to be at least competitive with the GT500 at least until the new generations come out.
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"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
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