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Old 05-18-2011, 07:47 PM   #171
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I'm not Number 3, but I'm diggin it.
Wait................whut?????

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honestly not to be rude it just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that gm has thrown in the towel and that we just have to accept how they build things......my response to expenses is get it done it is there job isnt it?
I had a whole diatribe on the Z28 with a bunch of good stuff and ended up just saving it in a word file. I wish to be careful no one misinterprets what I post. Sometimes I like to be a fan boy too.

That being said, GM is in the business of????................what??...................... ...........can't hear you?? oh making cars you say??? ...................................WRONG!!!!! GM is in business to make $$, piles and piles of $$$$$$. For a Z28 to work, it must be profitable. And the low volume cars must be VERY profitable. It has nothing to do with throwing in the towel. Every single suggestion made in this thread and others for a Z28 is "possible". LS7? Sure, toss it in. Super duper suspension? Name it and it's done. Carbon fiber, magnesium, aluminium???? All in baby. But GM has to make money on the proposition. ANNNNNND GM has to overall make more money than if they didn't do a Z28. If it were your business, would you do a Z28 if it took sales from the Z06 which was even more profitable??? No you wouldn't.

Keep in mind the Z28 is a hallowed name plate within GM. You can bet your bottom dollar that it has at least been discussed by leaders at very high levels. "Can we make money on it????" And that's the key. Can you imagine running your own business and going to the bank to ask for a loan............."I know I won't make any money on this idea, and in fact I might hurt my overall business, but would you loan me some money to go do this product because it's so cooooool"?

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Its not excueses, its engineering. And you don't have to accept how they build things, there are a dozen other automakers who you can buy from if you want. But only GM makes Camaros.

As for cost ... there's never a free lunch. Everything always costs something. Be it money, or weight, or quality/effectiveness. Take the structure of the car for example. They went with a low cost structure that was very strong. As a result, its heavy. For about the same cost they could make it lighter by going with less steel. Problem is, its not nearly as strong anymore (lowering the quality/effectiveness). Alternatively, they could have kept it strong and went with another metal, such as aluminum, to save weight. But now its expensive.

Balancing those factors, along with many others, is whats at the core of engineering. It applies to all the parts in the car.
Ahhhhhh, there you go using the balance word.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:01 PM   #172
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Yuck!!!!!
X infinity!!!
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:58 PM   #173
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:59 PM   #174
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This thread is certainly interesting to watch...so many ideas...

If there is going to be a "refresh", it'll be interesting to see what they end up doing. I'm sure whatever it is, it'll look great.
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:10 AM   #175
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I transplanted the Jay Leno heat extractor vents into the hood but at this angle, the vents are not really that visible.. but they are on there and lookin' good. I also took almost two inches off the frame below the drivers door trying to slim down the body a little bit more. I will continue to smooth out some of the paint around the rough areas (around the heat extractor vents and the front splitter) and continue to make cuts here and there and see what I can come up with throughout the day...

Experimenting with assorted spoiler designs too.

Edit: Ducktail spoiler added with "CAMARO" decal. (Black with silver stripe or just black?)
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:32 AM   #176
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I may be the only one but something just does work with that nose, could be the angle I don't know
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:08 AM   #177
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Its not excueses, its engineering. And you don't have to accept how they build things, there are a dozen other automakers who you can buy from if you want. But only GM makes Camaros.

As for cost ... there's never a free lunch. Everything always costs something. Be it money, or weight, or quality/effectiveness. Take the structure of the car for example. They went with a low cost structure that was very strong. As a result, its heavy. For about the same cost they could make it lighter by going with less steel. Problem is, its not nearly as strong anymore (lowering the quality/effectiveness). Alternatively, they could have kept it strong and went with another metal, such as aluminum, to save weight. But now its expensive.

Balancing those factors, along with many others, is whats at the core of engineering. It applies to all the parts in the car.
its not that i dont understand the balance and trade off of things, to be honest yes there are other car companies that make great cars are they expensive? yes but mostly because you can customize them to the t. i bought a camaro because of its infinite return and when i was in high school everyone had one ( the fbod era) and i wanted one. they stopped making them and of course i moved on. i bought the new one loved it at first but kinda on impulse which was my fault to begin with i know. i think number 3 finally said the answer "what is gm here for? make money plain and simple." there is a government trade off and unless you have money to talk i dont think gm will ever build anything that makes us truly happy just for those reasons. to answer number 3 question about the z06, how insulting is it that you have the ford boss just beat every record that the z06 had and is still beating them even more. a 90K car vs a 48K i believe, who wouldnt want that trade off. Gm has been issued a challenge are they going to except and make the car gods happy? probly not. but it is fun to think about and talk
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:19 AM   #178
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I may be the only one but something just does work with that nose, could be the angle I don't know
The fascia is a mix between the SS and the ZL1. My intention was solely to clean up the front fascia and be strictly business in the front because I wanted maximum grille area for airflow. I tried to even out the factory splitter with the side splitters and got close enough, the splitter basically runs down the entire length of the car and into the rear brake ducts.

The Z28 needs a unique fascia with form and function but not a fascia that is cluttered. The fascia needs to show relation to all other Camaro models by adopting an aspect from each and applying those simple physics together. The wide open lower valance, the fog lights and the mail slot delete are each taken from the ZL1, SS and LT while the while the bowtie delete and badge draws the Z28 away from the others. This is what I would want the Z28 to look like...

What we absolutely DO NOT want is a Z28 that is a mini-ZL1, no light clusters or brake ducts that use to be light clusters, no ZL1 mohawk heat extractor (carbon fiber inserts would be cool for the Leno heat extractors).

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Old 05-19-2011, 10:21 AM   #179
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its not that i dont understand the balance and trade off of things, to be honest yes there are other car companies that make great cars are they expensive? yes but mostly because you can customize them to the t. i bought a camaro because of its infinite return and when i was in high school everyone had one ( the fbod era) and i wanted one. they stopped making them and of course i moved on. i bought the new one loved it at first but kinda on impulse which was my fault to begin with i know. i think number 3 finally said the answer "what is gm here for? make money plain and simple." there is a government trade off and unless you have money to talk i dont think gm will ever build anything that makes us truly happy just for those reasons. to answer number 3 question about the z06, how insulting is it that you have the ford boss just beat every record that the z06 had and is still beating them even more. a 90K car vs a 48K i believe, who wouldnt want that trade off. Gm has been issued a challenge are they going to except and make the car gods happy? probly not. but it is fun to think about and talk
Ummm where did you get this info on the boss destroying a Z06?
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:43 AM   #180
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http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

not only that its 500 lbs heavier
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:21 AM   #181
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http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

not only that its 500 lbs heavier
Different drivers, different days ...
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:23 AM   #182
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Different drivers, different days ...
numbers are numbers in this game
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:55 AM   #183
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That's an 05' Z06.
However the fact that the Boss is in that company is awesome. If a Camaro performed like that for those $$ I'd own it
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #184
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numbers are numbers in this game
whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:21 PM   #185
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whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
weither it beats it or not dollar for dollar it has a better value for what it does and who it has to compete with and hang
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:26 PM   #186
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whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
Actually, those times were accomplished by Road and Track and Motor Trend. The driver that Ford invited to drive the Boss at Laguna Seca never released what the actual times were. Ford just stated that the times were sub 1:39 which was far faster than Ford's 1:42 goal. For the record, both Ford and GM use their own drivers to acquire the fastest lap times, an example of this would be the CTS-V's run at the Ring.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:36 PM   #187
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It has been many years since GM has done a refresh of any car after only 3 years, and I don't see them changing the trend with the Camaro. That's not to say I would be against it, but I don't think it will happen.
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