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Old 05-13-2011, 06:45 PM   #18
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:06 AM   #19
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You over-think things...and assume MUCH.
Nobody ever told me that before, its the war harden mentality that has me spinning ever issue to get a look at it from all sides. It is how I approach all things and will be difficult for me to change...

However, back to the Z28 designs. I stand by my post and believe that one of these cars, along with a mid-gen refresh is in the works. Its always good to save the best for last...
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:16 AM   #20
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
I have driven both as well, I spent a whole day with a 2SS a few days ago for a review. I drive my GT almost everyday and I just cannot get over how close they got the 2010+ to the 1967-1969's. I loved the prototype pictures of the 2006 Camaro but when I went to look at one in 2009, it didn't look like the same car. I rented a V6 Camaro again in Hawaii in 2010 and drove it for 8 days out of the 18 I was there and you are correct by saying that the Mustang is a smaller car. I put money down shortly after the 5.0 announcement after I got back from Hawaii on the 2011 GT, I needed a car for competition....

I would like to see the refresh get rid of some of the extra metal on the outside like Dragoneye said. It's also a very hard thing to do but if Ford can do it, I think GM can.

I think that this Camaro really brings the front of the car into modern times, It's simple, functional and looks like a track athlete. It also takes the Camaro into another direction and would definitely make the older 5th Gens more exclusive. I think those headlights bring the 3rd Gen back a little...


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Old 05-14-2011, 07:04 AM   #21
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I have a bone to pick with the ZL1's design because I know where they got it from and most people do not know that the fascia was borrowed. I want the Z28 to be original not like the ZL1's design was. Oh, do tell.......
What really turned me off about the ZL1 was that the lower fascia, the part that was suppose to really set the car aside from the SS, was borrowed from another GM product. The Fascia was taken from the 2008 Vauxhall VXR8 that carries the LS3. Once I seen that, I threw up. I hope the Z28 doesn't try to copy and paste parts from foreign cars, regardless if it is a performance model... people do live in other countries and are willing to bust them on this... Hurry up and look at this, I want to take this down.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:21 AM   #22
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Let me remind you that the reason the Camaro looks the way it does is because the Camaro people within GM were overwhelmingly touched by the rendering that Sangyup Lee produced....they turned it into something real that you can touch and spin on a stage
I agree that Mr. Lee's 2005 sketches were incredible, they were also very similar to Rob Jenson's 2003-2004 sketches of the S197 that were scrapped because they were too big in design. Ford obviously went with he classic drawings which brought about the smaller Mustang and went on to win the Miller Cup in 2005...

Lets compare... Ford eventually went with the black and whites at the bottom. Good history lesson though...
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:29 AM   #23
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You see, the Mustang and Camaro are practically related.. Here some more from Robs 2004 batch, You will see the 50th Anniversary Mustang concept art in here, the black and whites half way down.... and the reason Ford went with the smaller styling, the current body lines of the 2010+ match the body lines of the 1964-1969 Mustang's. You are right about the new Mustang's looking smaller than they actually are (see bottom) That was no doubt very hard to do... I would like to see the 2013 Z28 match up with the 1969 Z28. That red Mustang would make a nice 2013 Z28, just change out the headlights, running pony of course and there ya go GM. The red one makes a nice nip/tucked 5th Gen...
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:56 AM   #24
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My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:02 PM   #25
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Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.

I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.
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Old 05-14-2011, 02:40 PM   #26
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Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.

I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.
It's always awesome to have the original and in my opinion, the guys who bought the 2010 are the true 5th Gen pioneers. Every model year after the 2010 has gain weight but, do have more options. As of right now, the 4th Gen Camaro is only 2 years old but in 2013 the car will be at its mid-gen point. If you compare the initial S197 sales to the 5th Gen's, you will see that the 3rd year is usually where sales start to decline. In 2005, the Mustang was a HUGE head turner and was the most popular automobile according to the sales numbers. Ford was literally selling 14,000 Mustangs a month for 3 years then sales eventually dropped. There were two factors that contributed to the sales slump, one was the economic event and the second was, everyone that wanted a Mustang had bought one. For example, sales in 2007 were 134,626, sales in 2008 were 91,251. I think GM did the right thing and held off on the convertible as long as they did, even though the convertible tops were an issue, it helped push sales back up on the Camaro.

What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.

I agree that the Camaro needs both form and function, form sells way more than function because 99% of new car buyers can't tell you what the grille is for. I suspected that even the simplest of alterations to the 5th Gen would be met with frowns and I can almost guarantee that any future refresh will be the same. Trying to convince that 1% of new car buyers (Camaro enthusiast) when the changes go public that it is the best design GM had up their sleeves is going to be tough. I doubt that the original 5th Gen guys will regret their purchase, main reason being is that they will most likely hate the refresh... and that's ok... it just goes to show you how great the original was. The refresh needs to be functional, race ready, aggressive and be more aerodynamic drag coefficient. The 5th Gen needs to pull in some championships or at least some more podiums, this is where car enthusiast begin to respect the car and become more interested, when the Camaro begins to collect trophies. It sucks that nobody likes the headlights on the Camaro GT.R's, I think that a grille that was flush with the lights would really round out the front end. I will experiment some with a couple of the pics and see if I can get anything out of them...
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #27
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You are not going to get much in the way that can not be changed structuralwise on this car. If I am not mistaken this cars got a short lifespan on its platform before it goes by by.

So it might only get those cosmetic upgrades..The tail lights will be one thing to get it..maybe a new hood or two, reworked fenders and front maybe. But I really see GM doing only small stuff. They already offer the heritage grill on the car..soo..its going to be small things..interior and colors..

and the race covers..worked on 4th gens not on that car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:45 PM   #28
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What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.
I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:02 PM   #29
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I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
Sorry bud, sales volume does dictate the gas guzzler tax when the vehicle is penalized by it. It is also possible to reduce the amount of tax based on the sales volume like the CTS-V does. This was talked about months ago on Camaro5. I will post the document up here later after the race. The GT500 does not clear the gas guzzler tax, it is way below the 22.5. I will talk to you later about it, we will get educated on it.... Gotta go
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:23 PM   #30
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It appears that I can do both, monitor the race, update my Camaro5 post concerning the race and educate us on how the gas guzzler tax works at the same time.. How do I do this? I'm on a MAC... Here is the GG tax rules quoted then I will post the link after.
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The Gas Guzzler Tax for each vehicle is based on its combined city and highway fuel economy value. Manufacturers must follow U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) procedures to calculate the tax. The calculation uses a formula that weights fuel economy test results for city and highway driving cycles (the combined value is based on 55% city driving and 45% highway driving). Fuel economy values are calculated before sales begin for the model year. The total amount of the tax is determined later and is based on the total number of gas guzzler vehicles that were sold that year. It is assessed after production has ended for the model year and is paid by the vehicle manufacturer or importer.
EPA and manufacturers use the same test to measure vehicle fuel economy for the Gas Guzzler Tax and for new car fuel economy labels. However, the calculation procedures for tax and label purposes differ, resulting in different fuel economy values. This is because an adjustment factor is applied to the fuel economy test results for purposes of the label, but not for the tax. The adjustment is intended to help account for the differences between “real-world” and laboratory testing conditions.
EPA conducts fuel economy tests in a laboratory on a dynamometer (a device similar to a treadmill). Laboratory conditions can be different from real world conditions for such parameters as vehicle speeds, acceleration rates, driving patterns, ambient temperatures, fuel type, tire pressure, wind resistance, etc. EPA studies indicate that vehicles driven by typical drivers under typical road conditions get approximately 90 percent of the laboratory test-based city miles per gallon (mpg) value and approximately78 percent of laboratory highway mpg value. This difference is referred to as “in-use shortfall.” To account for the in-use shortfall, the city and highway mpg values listed in Fuel Economy Guide and shown on fuel economy labels are multiplied by 0.90 for the city test and 0.78 for the highway test. However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

Although exact production numbers are not discussed, numbers can be taken by vehicles we know that do not pass and get a pretty good idea where the limits are (and you need to talk to people that know about this stuff). The CTS-V was able to reduce its GG tax rate by selling under 10,000 units by a bracket, the GT500 was able to avoid the tax all together by selling less than 5500. It all depends on the amount the car is forced to pay and the amount sold as well.... I'm not trying to make you look dumb on this subject, I didn't even know about this until it was discussed and I searched for someone who was educated on the subject. Chevrolet has stated that the ZL1's production would not affect Chevrolets EPA rating (in so many words). That means that there will be a cap for the ZL1.

Let me know if you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them...
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:27 PM   #31
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:29 PM   #32
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I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
The way you think the gas guzzler tax test is performed is completely wrong, instead of telling me that my post is BS, please ask me how I come to my conclusions before you make me look like an idiot. As I said before, the GT500 did not pass the GG test, but the production numbers were low enough at the end of the year that Ford was able to avoid the tax completely based on the GT500's average full consumption (which was decent). If the CTS-V were to try the same thing only producing 5500, it would have still had to pay a tax, but it would not be the same rate as it is now. It is totally up to GM...

Please pay me some respect, when I post something... it isn't going to be BS...

Edit: You are correct about the window sticker MPG value though, here is what the EPA says...
Quote:
However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.

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Old 05-14-2011, 05:32 PM   #33
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:37 PM   #34
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My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...
I would like to think that any future Camaro would be accepted by all Camaro enthusiasts. I have owned many Corvettes in my numerous years but this ZL1 will be my first Camaro. Hopefully one that I will hold on to until I no longer have the strength to press the clutch. I fell in love with the initial design and sat back knowing/wishing that Chevy would build a true HiPo version of the car. The ZL1 fulfills my every wish and then some. Every major component that I wanted and wished for in a factory Camaro came to life in the ZL1. I am sure that the engine will come in between 550 and 570HP, the magnetic suspension was something I did not think the Camaro would get. They beefed up the drive line, added HUD and made the car look stunning and aggressive. I simply cannot be happier unless they bring the car to market sooner. I am not sure if I am in your 1% or 99% group but I am very proud of the job that the Chevy team did and continues to do on this car.
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