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Old 05-14-2011, 02:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Revo1 View Post
Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.

I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.
It's always awesome to have the original and in my opinion, the guys who bought the 2010 are the true 5th Gen pioneers. Every model year after the 2010 has gain weight but, do have more options. As of right now, the 4th Gen Camaro is only 2 years old but in 2013 the car will be at its mid-gen point. If you compare the initial S197 sales to the 5th Gen's, you will see that the 3rd year is usually where sales start to decline. In 2005, the Mustang was a HUGE head turner and was the most popular automobile according to the sales numbers. Ford was literally selling 14,000 Mustangs a month for 3 years then sales eventually dropped. There were two factors that contributed to the sales slump, one was the economic event and the second was, everyone that wanted a Mustang had bought one. For example, sales in 2007 were 134,626, sales in 2008 were 91,251. I think GM did the right thing and held off on the convertible as long as they did, even though the convertible tops were an issue, it helped push sales back up on the Camaro.

What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.

I agree that the Camaro needs both form and function, form sells way more than function because 99% of new car buyers can't tell you what the grille is for. I suspected that even the simplest of alterations to the 5th Gen would be met with frowns and I can almost guarantee that any future refresh will be the same. Trying to convince that 1% of new car buyers (Camaro enthusiast) when the changes go public that it is the best design GM had up their sleeves is going to be tough. I doubt that the original 5th Gen guys will regret their purchase, main reason being is that they will most likely hate the refresh... and that's ok... it just goes to show you how great the original was. The refresh needs to be functional, race ready, aggressive and be more aerodynamic drag coefficient. The 5th Gen needs to pull in some championships or at least some more podiums, this is where car enthusiast begin to respect the car and become more interested, when the Camaro begins to collect trophies. It sucks that nobody likes the headlights on the Camaro GT.R's, I think that a grille that was flush with the lights would really round out the front end. I will experiment some with a couple of the pics and see if I can get anything out of them...
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #27
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You are not going to get much in the way that can not be changed structuralwise on this car. If I am not mistaken this cars got a short lifespan on its platform before it goes by by.

So it might only get those cosmetic upgrades..The tail lights will be one thing to get it..maybe a new hood or two, reworked fenders and front maybe. But I really see GM doing only small stuff. They already offer the heritage grill on the car..soo..its going to be small things..interior and colors..

and the race covers..worked on 4th gens not on that car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:45 PM   #28
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What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.
I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:02 PM   #29
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I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
Sorry bud, sales volume does dictate the gas guzzler tax when the vehicle is penalized by it. It is also possible to reduce the amount of tax based on the sales volume like the CTS-V does. This was talked about months ago on Camaro5. I will post the document up here later after the race. The GT500 does not clear the gas guzzler tax, it is way below the 22.5. I will talk to you later about it, we will get educated on it.... Gotta go
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:23 PM   #30
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It appears that I can do both, monitor the race, update my Camaro5 post concerning the race and educate us on how the gas guzzler tax works at the same time.. How do I do this? I'm on a MAC... Here is the GG tax rules quoted then I will post the link after.
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The Gas Guzzler Tax for each vehicle is based on its combined city and highway fuel economy value. Manufacturers must follow U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) procedures to calculate the tax. The calculation uses a formula that weights fuel economy test results for city and highway driving cycles (the combined value is based on 55% city driving and 45% highway driving). Fuel economy values are calculated before sales begin for the model year. The total amount of the tax is determined later and is based on the total number of gas guzzler vehicles that were sold that year. It is assessed after production has ended for the model year and is paid by the vehicle manufacturer or importer.
EPA and manufacturers use the same test to measure vehicle fuel economy for the Gas Guzzler Tax and for new car fuel economy labels. However, the calculation procedures for tax and label purposes differ, resulting in different fuel economy values. This is because an adjustment factor is applied to the fuel economy test results for purposes of the label, but not for the tax. The adjustment is intended to help account for the differences between “real-world” and laboratory testing conditions.
EPA conducts fuel economy tests in a laboratory on a dynamometer (a device similar to a treadmill). Laboratory conditions can be different from real world conditions for such parameters as vehicle speeds, acceleration rates, driving patterns, ambient temperatures, fuel type, tire pressure, wind resistance, etc. EPA studies indicate that vehicles driven by typical drivers under typical road conditions get approximately 90 percent of the laboratory test-based city miles per gallon (mpg) value and approximately78 percent of laboratory highway mpg value. This difference is referred to as “in-use shortfall.” To account for the in-use shortfall, the city and highway mpg values listed in Fuel Economy Guide and shown on fuel economy labels are multiplied by 0.90 for the city test and 0.78 for the highway test. However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

Although exact production numbers are not discussed, numbers can be taken by vehicles we know that do not pass and get a pretty good idea where the limits are (and you need to talk to people that know about this stuff). The CTS-V was able to reduce its GG tax rate by selling under 10,000 units by a bracket, the GT500 was able to avoid the tax all together by selling less than 5500. It all depends on the amount the car is forced to pay and the amount sold as well.... I'm not trying to make you look dumb on this subject, I didn't even know about this until it was discussed and I searched for someone who was educated on the subject. Chevrolet has stated that the ZL1's production would not affect Chevrolets EPA rating (in so many words). That means that there will be a cap for the ZL1.

Let me know if you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them...
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:27 PM   #31
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:29 PM   #32
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I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
The way you think the gas guzzler tax test is performed is completely wrong, instead of telling me that my post is BS, please ask me how I come to my conclusions before you make me look like an idiot. As I said before, the GT500 did not pass the GG test, but the production numbers were low enough at the end of the year that Ford was able to avoid the tax completely based on the GT500's average full consumption (which was decent). If the CTS-V were to try the same thing only producing 5500, it would have still had to pay a tax, but it would not be the same rate as it is now. It is totally up to GM...

Please pay me some respect, when I post something... it isn't going to be BS...

Edit: You are correct about the window sticker MPG value though, here is what the EPA says...
Quote:
However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.

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Old 05-14-2011, 05:32 PM   #33
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:37 PM   #34
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My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...
I would like to think that any future Camaro would be accepted by all Camaro enthusiasts. I have owned many Corvettes in my numerous years but this ZL1 will be my first Camaro. Hopefully one that I will hold on to until I no longer have the strength to press the clutch. I fell in love with the initial design and sat back knowing/wishing that Chevy would build a true HiPo version of the car. The ZL1 fulfills my every wish and then some. Every major component that I wanted and wished for in a factory Camaro came to life in the ZL1. I am sure that the engine will come in between 550 and 570HP, the magnetic suspension was something I did not think the Camaro would get. They beefed up the drive line, added HUD and made the car look stunning and aggressive. I simply cannot be happier unless they bring the car to market sooner. I am not sure if I am in your 1% or 99% group but I am very proud of the job that the Chevy team did and continues to do on this car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:01 PM   #35
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I would like to think that any future Camaro would be accepted by all Camaro enthusiasts. I have owned many Corvettes in my numerous years but this ZL1 will be my first Camaro. Hopefully one that I will hold on to until I no longer have the strength to press the clutch. I fell in love with the initial design and sat back knowing/wishing that Chevy would build a true HiPo version of the car. The ZL1 fulfills my every wish and then some. Every major component that I wanted and wished for in a factory Camaro came to life in the ZL1. I am sure that the engine will come in between 550 and 570HP, the magnetic suspension was something I did not think the Camaro would get. They beefed up the drive line, added HUD and made the car look stunning and aggressive. I simply cannot be happier unless they bring the car to market sooner. I am not sure if I am in your 1% or 99% group but I am very proud of the job that the Chevy team did and continues to do on this car.
Bottom line, GM is saving the best for last. The ZL1 will be a great car, I wish I was able to talk about the ZL1 in depth but I cannot. The Z28 will be the highlight of the 5th Gen Camaro and whether or not it is done in collaboration with a redesign is unknown to me. There is obviously a great automotive event happening in 2014, and GM's sleeves have what is needed to damper that event and absorb some of the publicity. There is a strong fanbase under the 5th Gen Camaro, this thread was intended to ease the possibility of a 5th Gen Camaro that does not look like the 5th Gen Camaro that sits in your driveways right now. If the 5th Gen intends to only survive until 2015 then there is no need for a refresh but, wouldn't that be cutting the 5G's life a little short? I think that it has the staying power to make it until the Camaro's 50th anniversary in 2017. The Alpha Caddy won't come out until 2014-2015, I would expect the 6th Gen Camaro to take at least 2 years after the Alpha Caddy and after the Mustang III comes out to really maximize the R&D. A refresh has to happen at some point and what better time to turn up the heat than the release of the 2014 Mustang. GM could always opt to remain outside the pony car market and focus on profit, just remain in their own class for a few years. They could focus on the body work and make the Camaro appear to be smaller than it actually is but seeing the weight increases year over year could make that difficult... the 2012 FE4 Camaro 2SS should weigh close to 3950lbs, the 1SS is close to 4000lbs. That's a pretty heavy benchmark for the ZL1 to start at... We need a lightweight Z28 NOW....

I don't know if your in that 1% or not, I myself could be considered a 1%er... I have owned more Camaro's than most of the members here probably have.. and two plum purple Firebirds (ex-girlfriends idea, not mine).
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:17 PM   #36
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Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
I spent a day with the 2SS on Tuesday and some on Wednesday, the sedan feeling is mostly from the suspension. The FE4 option should be aimed at getting rid of that floating that you feel and go with harder springs. Under the "S" bends, the rear wiggled but found its place again upon exit with a little gas. The visibility is not that great, the drivers side A pillar is the worst. I imagine if a helmet was worn and we were strapped in via a 5 point, we wouldn't be able to move our heads to see around it. The torque was great, you can definitely feel the seat... I don't know if I would want to label these cars as "Muscle Cars", I remember what happened to the last batch of muscle cars, while our pony cars were defining the meaning of "Sports Coupes"....
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:08 PM   #37
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I just hope they bring the Z28 back, stuff an LS7 in it, and deliver it to me!
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #38
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I spent a day with the 2SS on Tuesday and some on Wednesday, the sedan feeling is mostly from the suspension. The FE4 option should be aimed at getting rid of that floating that you feel and go with harder springs. Under the "S" bends, the rear wiggled but found its place again upon exit with a little gas. The visibility is not that great, the drivers side A pillar is the worst. I imagine if a helmet was worn and we were strapped in via a 5 point, we wouldn't be able to move our heads to see around it. The torque was great, you can definitely feel the seat... I don't know if I would want to label these cars as "Muscle Cars", I remember what happened to the last batch of muscle cars, while our pony cars were defining the meaning of "Sports Coupes"....
Negative on that, check your stats, Camaro has 1.1 inches more headroom and 1.6 inch more shoulder room, a big plus for me who is 6'1" with a 46 chest and 17 inch biceps, also the seats are much more comfortable, in my humble opinion.
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:18 PM   #39
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Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
I totally disagree that the Camaro feels sedan -like, go back to your Mustang/Mopar forums...
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Old 05-14-2011, 09:43 PM   #40
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Bottom line, GM is saving the best for last. The ZL1 will be a great car, I wish I was able to talk about the ZL1 in depth but I cannot. The Z28 will be the highlight of the 5th Gen Camaro and whether or not it is done in collaboration with a redesign is unknown to me. There is obviously a great automotive event happening in 2014, and GM's sleeves have what is needed to damper that event and absorb some of the publicity. There is a strong fanbase under the 5th Gen Camaro, this thread was intended to ease the possibility of a 5th Gen Camaro that does not look like the 5th Gen Camaro that sits in your driveways right now. If the 5th Gen intends to only survive until 2015 then there is no need for a refresh but, wouldn't that be cutting the 5G's life a little short? I think that it has the staying power to make it until the Camaro's 50th anniversary in 2017. The Alpha Caddy won't come out until 2014-2015, I would expect the 6th Gen Camaro to take at least 2 years after the Alpha Caddy and after the Mustang III comes out to really maximize the R&D. A refresh has to happen at some point and what better time to turn up the heat than the release of the 2014 Mustang. GM could always opt to remain outside the pony car market and focus on profit, just remain in their own class for a few years. They could focus on the body work and make the Camaro appear to be smaller than it actually is but seeing the weight increases year over year could make that difficult... the 2012 FE4 Camaro 2SS should weigh close to 3950lbs, the 1SS is close to 4000lbs. That's a pretty heavy benchmark for the ZL1 to start at... We need a lightweight Z28 NOW....

I don't know if your in that 1% or not, I myself could be considered a 1%er... I have owned more Camaro's than most of the members here probably have.. and two plum purple Firebirds (ex-girlfriends idea, not mine).
What are you talking about?? the 2012 Camaro SS Manuel still weighs 3860lbs, the 2012 Camaro SS auto 3913lbs according to chevy order guide. Also there is no weight difference between a 2SS and 1SS, if anything the 1SS would be a couple of pounds lighter.

Edit: your entire post is your assumptions, stateing them as facts. The Fact is you and everybody else on this forum has no Idea what GM is up to except Fbodfather and maybe Number 3.
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Old 05-15-2011, 04:36 AM   #41
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What are you talking about?? the 2012 Camaro SS Manuel still weighs 3860lbs, the 2012 Camaro SS auto 3913lbs according to chevy order guide. Also there is no weight difference between a 2SS and 1SS, if anything the 1SS would be a couple of pounds lighter.

Edit: your entire post is your assumptions, stateing them as facts. The Fact is you and everybody else on this forum has no Idea what GM is up to except Fbodfather and maybe Number 3.
First, any thread with the Z28 in it is going to be full of assumptions with zero facts. This is all wishful thinking and has zero truth when concerning the Z28. Second, the 2011 LT model was also listed at 3741lbs and since it was the only vehicle that was really tested, it is the only one we can look at. The 2010 LT V6 did weigh 3741lbs but the following year the curb weight went up to 3769lbs. It is safe to assume that with the standard improvements and additional options, a small increase in weight was bound to happen. The LT is still listed as 3741lbs and that will never change. Google "2011 Camaro curb weight 3769lbs" and it will take you right to it.

With almost 20lbs of extra weight last year and at least 50lbs coming this year with a FE4 optioned SS. (power passenger seats are 20-25lbs themselves), we are looking at a 3950lbs 2SS this year. GM is in bad need of a stripper Z28 now more than ever... Leftlane list the 2011 2SS at 3902lbs and the LT is listed at 3780lbs but I don't know if those are autos or not, I will do some more research and see where the extra weight comes from...

Edit: Disregard, the 3902lbs is listed as a 6 speed manual. http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-camaro-ss.html

You can also google "2011 Camaro 2SS 3902 curb weight" and see many publications that use that curb weight for the 2SS. I myself cannot see that much weight being gained from 2010 to 2011, I can see a simple 15-20lbs being gained but that's about it... unless GM gets their curb weights will a half or 3/4 tank of gas which I heard they are permitted to do. This would hold weight as Edmunds tested the 2010 2SS at 3894lbs so seeing that the 2011 2SS is routinely tipping the scales over 3900lbs doesn't come as a surprise. It's also worth noting that the 2011 Camaro V6 automatic weighed 3800lbs even during the last 4 way comparison in Motor Trend. It gained 20lbs over the 2010 Camaro V6 auto (3780lbs) so it is safe to say that the entire lineup gained about 20lbs from 2010 to 2011. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/specs.html

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Old 05-15-2011, 04:48 AM   #42
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Negative on that, check your stats, Camaro has 1.1 inches more headroom and 1.6 inch more shoulder room, a big plus for me who is 6'1" with a 46 chest and 17 inch biceps, also the seats are much more comfortable, in my humble opinion.
I don't know man, this is what is commonly listed.
2011 Camaro vs. 2011 Mustang

Headroom Showdown!!!!

Looks like the there is a 1.1" more head room but the Camaro has 1.3" more shoulder room... The seat were pretty comfortable, I just didn't like the headrest... Now, lets get back to the Z28...
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:23 AM   #43
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You are right on the headroom, I guess I looked at the wrong figure. But there is 1.6 inches more shoulder room, I assume that also applies to the camaro hip room which I can't find. However, the extra shoulder and hip room just makes it more comfortable for me--I don't feel as squished.

But Thanks for keeping me straight, facts are facts...

Hey, I was stationed at Ramstien for 4 years, I liked that area..

Do you have a 1/4 mile predicion for a good driver for the ZL1 M6?

T
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:56 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mr T View Post
You are right on the headroom, I guess I looked at the wrong figure. But there is 1.6 inches more shoulder room, I assume that also applies to the camaro hip room which I can't find. However, the extra shoulder and hip room just makes it more comfortable for me--I don't feel as squished.

But Thanks for keeping me straight, facts are facts...

Hey, I was stationed at Ramstien for 4 years, I liked that area..

Do you have a 1/4 mile predicion for a good driver for the ZL1 M6?

T
I get numbers confused all the time, I constantly have to recheck what I'm typing. Ramstein is still over populated with the new BX they put in it is even worse. If the horsepower figures remain at the CTS-V levels 556hp and 551tq and I figure that the weight is going to be around 4152lbs. I'm thinking the magazine times for the ZL1 with the manual will be capable of 12.6@116mph to 12.2@118mph. I am thinking that the extra tire width is over kill, the CTS-V did not have traction issues with the 19 inch 285's so I see no real advantage other than handling coming from 305's. I think the CTS-V's 19's will prove to be the better of the two for acceleration because of the less rotational mass and smaller diameter. I think the CTS-V's wheel/tire combo would be great for the Z28. If GM provides the optional 6L90 automatic, I can see it being 2 tenths faster than the manual but the extra weight from the 6L90 will put the ZL1 close to 4200lbs according to my calculations.
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:41 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
I get numbers confused all the time, I constantly have to recheck what I'm typing. Ramstein is still over populated with the new BX they put in it is even worse. If the horsepower figures remain at the CTS-V levels 556hp and 551tq and I figure that the weight is going to be around 4152lbs. I'm thinking the magazine times for the ZL1 with the manual will be capable of 12.6@116mph to 12.2@118mph. I am thinking that the extra tire width is over kill, the CTS-V did not have traction issues with the 19 inch 285's so I see no real advantage other than handling coming from 305's. I think the CTS-V's 19's will prove to be the better of the two for acceleration because of the less rotational mass and smaller diameter. I think the CTS-V's wheel/tire combo would be great for the Z28. If GM provides the optional 6L90 automatic, I can see it being 2 tenths faster than the manual but the extra weight from the 6L90 will put the ZL1 close to 4200lbs according to my calculations.
I just think with the PTM that it will be faster--I am predicting an 11.9 FWIW...
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:06 AM   #46
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Just a few comments:

There is no Z28 at this point, GM has not announced anything and until they do there is no such thing. So you can SPECULATE all you want and that's a good thing. It's what I love about this site, not just the speculation, but the passion that goes with it. But to say there is one or make comparissons as if there was some announcement is just fun.

Comparing SAE interior measurements is the accepted industry method for comparing vehicle dimensions, both interior and exterior. And if you look at the exterior numbers you will see the Camaro is wider and longer than a Mustang driving up the weight. That size does not always mean a larger interior, although I believe the Camaro has an edge in rear seat room, which I think means with the front seat all the way back, it gives you 1 inch rather than 1/2" LOL. However, sit in a Camaro and sit in a Mustang (I have) and compare how much leg splay you have. There is more room in the Camaro and that is the "feeling" the bigger guys are noticing and reporting. A feeling of roominess that goes beyond the SAE measurements. A good bit of the weight of the Camaro is simply from the styling that makes the car sooooooo damn sexy. How about those hips? Huh? Nice!!! Well that's a "thicker" car than it needed to be and more mass but arguably a sexier shape. (Note: long drawn out comparison to the female form omitted so as not to remove clarity from the discussion)

Mythical future Super Mustangs...............LOL. Again, speculation no more accurate than many of the rumors here on Camaro5. So PILL unless you know someone at Ford that has put their job at risk to confirm to you such an animal exists, then lets just agree we are comparing speculative internet rumors with equally speculative internet rumors.

It is "likely" that Ford would like to have a RWD Mustang. But for that to happen Ford needs a Global RWD strategy to share the development costs. You can't spend the amount in engineering costs and capital unless you have something to share it with. And 80 to 100,000 Mustangs is NOT enough to do that. Now Ford may want to put their RWD Aussi sedan on this platform as well, but that is also very low volume. The advantage of the Zeta platform is it is exported around the world in decent volumes. I've also read claims that the next Falcon would be Taurus based. Again there is a need to get that platform up in volume as well. I don't think it is meeting Ford's needs for volume with Taurus/Lincoln/Explorer. So for Ford to come out with this mythical all new platform, it means either a big jump in $$$$$ on the sticker, or a broader plan for RWD vehicles. So I hope Ford is doing this, but it better be based on more than internet speculation. I know our product plans and I also know what is available on the internet and magazines is either old information, wrong information and generally both. Maybe that's why I enjoy the speculation so much.

Mass................always a great topic. It's an engineering based topic.

All OEMs are trying for low mass solutions. Not for performance mind you because you can ususally use premium materials and charge for it. But post 2016 CAFE has everyone scared. I posted in another thread, "Be affraid..................be very affraid". Mass and aero drive Fuel Economy. Mass is critical for the City number and also for maintaining some bit of driving performance with the smaller engines that will result. Aero IS the highway number. But even there, mass drives rolling resistance which adds the numbers. Further, any electrification strategy requires even lower mass to off set that added content. But for Ford to add an IRS, which will be an increase in mass will they offset it by not offering other features? Likely not if they do, making any Mustang with an IRS a bit heavier, by about 50 pounds and hundreds of $.

But there are really three ways to get mass out.

The easiest is to remove content. Many of the Z28 worshippers talk of removing the rear seat as an example. The problem here is you make the car less useful. To limit content as an example (i.e. sunroof) to keep weight down means there is a customer out there that will not be happy. Another one seems to be sound deadener. Pounds of it are used in every car to keep the cabin quiet(er). And some customers won't care....................but many do. And they may be so unhappy they go to another OEM. So you have to be very careful on eliminating or restricting content.

Second and also easy but now increasingly more expensive is to substitute premium materials for regular steel and plastics. Carbon Fiber, everyones baby here, is hugely expensive. Simply because as a molded part it's cycle time is in the hours rather than minutes for SMC or seconds for steel or aluminium. Even Aluminium is much more expensive than steel and has nearly traded commidity pricing compared with steel. And use of Aluminium or Magnesium requires unique strategies for preventing galvanic corrosion which again simply drives the costs higher. Oh, yes, I said magnesium. Very light weight................and verrrry expensive. Z06 Corvette front cradle....mmmmmmmmmm. And yes, PILL, there are high strength steels but they are not a mystery. GM, Ford as well as the other OEMs widely use these for specific applications. The problem becomes the harder (and stronger) the steel, the harder it is to form. And that is what makes these either expensive or unusable for most of what a car body is built from. Form hardened and bake hardened steels are widely used. So, yes, there is some room left in the application of these high strengh steels, but not a lot.

Third and the both the cheapest and hardest is simply to eningeer the car for lower mass. Can you use 2 fasteners instead of 3? Can you use lower gage wire? Can you thin out the steel and use formations in the panel to replicate the stiffness? Can you make the part smaller? This is the future (and excitement) in engineering. This takes skill and hard work. All of the normal requirements for stiffness, durabilty and performance still apply. Anybody can make a part lighter by making it less durable or have less strength. You can't just buy a lighter but more expensive material, you can't simply check a box that eliminates and RPO code. You have to work for it.............hard................every single day.

There, just a few comments I thought might add to the discussion.

And PILL, it is clear that your posts are well thought out and researched as are the thoughts of the moderators here (DGthe3 being one). But that doesn't always mean we will agree.
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Old 05-15-2011, 12:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
There is no Z28 at this point, GM has not announced anything and until they do there is no such thing. So you can SPECULATE all you want and that's a good thing. It's what I love about this site, not just the speculation, but the passion that goes with it. But to say there is one or make comparissons as if there was some announcement is just fun.
I guess this means those of us that had hope and excitement for a new
Z/28 can focus our time and energy elsewhere.

Thanks for the heads up and good luck with the ZL1.
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Old 05-15-2011, 12:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z View Post
I guess this means those of us that had hope and excitement for a new
Z/28 can focus our time and energy elsewhere.

Thanks for the heads up and good luck with the ZL1.
Never said there wouldn't or couldn't be one. That's why it's good to keep the discussion going so GM clearly knows there is a strong interest in such a car. My point was simply that until GM acknowledges anything no one can assume there is one based on Internet rumors and speculation. We went through this with the ZL1 for two years and those were good discussions IMO.
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Old 05-15-2011, 02:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Never said there wouldn't or couldn't be one. That's why it's good to keep the discussion going so GM clearly knows there is a strong interest in such a car. My point was simply that until GM acknowledges anything no one can assume there is one based on Internet rumors and speculation. We went through this with the ZL1 for two years and those were good discussions IMO.
And the most important point above, implied but not stated specifically, is that the ZL1 did ultimately appear!
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:31 PM   #50
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What really turned me off about the ZL1 was that the lower fascia, the part that was suppose to really set the car aside from the SS, was borrowed from another GM product. The Fascia was taken from the 2008 Vauxhall VXR8 that carries the LS3. Once I seen that, I threw up. I hope the Z28 doesn't try to copy and paste parts from foreign cars, regardless if it is a performance model... people do live in other countries and are willing to bust them on this... Hurry up and look at this, I want to take this down.
Perhaps the color (blackout) concept was borrowed.....but that's about it...Sorry to hear you're puking, I -and many others- LOVE the way the ZL1 looks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
The way you think the gas guzzler tax test is performed is completely wrong, instead of telling me that my post is BS, please ask me how I come to my conclusions before you make me look like an idiot. As I said before, the GT500 did not pass the GG test, but the production numbers were low enough at the end of the year that Ford was able to avoid the tax completely based on the GT500's average full consumption (which was decent). If the CTS-V were to try the same thing only producing 5500, it would have still had to pay a tax, but it would not be the same rate as it is now. It is totally up to GM...

Please pay me some respect, when I post something... it isn't going to be BS...
GG tax is applied whether or not a vehicle line sells X amount of models. I'm not sure where you got your information from - but it's wrong as of this afternoon.

Visit the EPA's website and find where it mentions cars under a reserve amount sold are exempt:http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

The only exemptions I see are non-passenger, rail, limousines over 6000 lbs, ambulances, and trucks.

Also note the explanation of the in-use-shortfall as it pertains to the GG tax.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3
Just a few comments:

There is no Z28 at this point, GM has not announced anything and until they do there is no such thing. So you can SPECULATE all you want and that's a good thing. It's what I love about this site, not just the speculation, but the passion that goes with it. But to say there is one or make comparissons as if there was some announcement is just fun.

Comparing SAE interior measurements is the accepted industry method for comparing vehicle dimensions, both interior and exterior. And if you look at the exterior numbers you will see the Camaro is wider and longer than a Mustang driving up the weight. That size does not always mean a larger interior, although I believe the Camaro has an edge in rear seat room, which I think means with the front seat all the way back, it gives you 1 inch rather than 1/2" LOL. However, sit in a Camaro and sit in a Mustang (I have) and compare how much leg splay you have. There is more room in the Camaro and that is the "feeling" the bigger guys are noticing and reporting. A feeling of roominess that goes beyond the SAE measurements. A good bit of the weight of the Camaro is simply from the styling that makes the car sooooooo damn sexy. How about those hips? Huh? Nice!!! Well that's a "thicker" car than it needed to be and more mass but arguably a sexier shape. (Note: long drawn out comparison to the female form omitted so as not to remove clarity from the discussion)

Mythical future Super Mustangs...............LOL. Again, speculation no more accurate than many of the rumors here on Camaro5. So PILL unless you know someone at Ford that has put their job at risk to confirm to you such an animal exists, then lets just agree we are comparing speculative internet rumors with equally speculative internet rumors.

It is "likely" that Ford would like to have a RWD Mustang. But for that to happen Ford needs a Global RWD strategy to share the development costs. You can't spend the amount in engineering costs and capital unless you have something to share it with. And 80 to 100,000 Mustangs is NOT enough to do that. Now Ford may want to put their RWD Aussi sedan on this platform as well, but that is also very low volume. The advantage of the Zeta platform is it is exported around the world in decent volumes. I've also read claims that the next Falcon would be Taurus based. Again there is a need to get that platform up in volume as well. I don't think it is meeting Ford's needs for volume with Taurus/Lincoln/Explorer. So for Ford to come out with this mythical all new platform, it means either a big jump in $$$$$ on the sticker, or a broader plan for RWD vehicles. So I hope Ford is doing this, but it better be based on more than internet speculation. I know our product plans and I also know what is available on the internet and magazines is either old information, wrong information and generally both. Maybe that's why I enjoy the speculation so much.

Mass................always a great topic. It's an engineering based topic.

All OEMs are trying for low mass solutions. Not for performance mind you because you can ususally use premium materials and charge for it. But post 2016 CAFE has everyone scared. I posted in another thread, "Be affraid..................be very affraid". Mass and aero drive Fuel Economy. Mass is critical for the City number and also for maintaining some bit of driving performance with the smaller engines that will result. Aero IS the highway number. But even there, mass drives rolling resistance which adds the numbers. Further, any electrification strategy requires even lower mass to off set that added content. But for Ford to add an IRS, which will be an increase in mass will they offset it by not offering other features? Likely not if they do, making any Mustang with an IRS a bit heavier, by about 50 pounds and hundreds of $.

But there are really three ways to get mass out.

The easiest is to remove content. Many of the Z28 worshippers talk of removing the rear seat as an example. The problem here is you make the car less useful. To limit content as an example (i.e. sunroof) to keep weight down means there is a customer out there that will not be happy. Another one seems to be sound deadener. Pounds of it are used in every car to keep the cabin quiet(er). And some customers won't care....................but many do. And they may be so unhappy they go to another OEM. So you have to be very careful on eliminating or restricting content.

Second and also easy but now increasingly more expensive is to substitute premium materials for regular steel and plastics. Carbon Fiber, everyones baby here, is hugely expensive. Simply because as a molded part it's cycle time is in the hours rather than minutes for SMC or seconds for steel or aluminium. Even Aluminium is much more expensive than steel and has nearly traded commidity pricing compared with steel. And use of Aluminium or Magnesium requires unique strategies for preventing galvanic corrosion which again simply drives the costs higher. Oh, yes, I said magnesium. Very light weight................and verrrry expensive. Z06 Corvette front cradle....mmmmmmmmmm. And yes, PILL, there are high strength steels but they are not a mystery. GM, Ford as well as the other OEMs widely use these for specific applications. The problem becomes the harder (and stronger) the steel, the harder it is to form. And that is what makes these either expensive or unusable for most of what a car body is built from. Form hardened and bake hardened steels are widely used. So, yes, there is some room left in the application of these high strengh steels, but not a lot.

Third and the both the cheapest and hardest is simply to eningeer the car for lower mass. Can you use 2 fasteners instead of 3? Can you use lower gage wire? Can you thin out the steel and use formations in the panel to replicate the stiffness? Can you make the part smaller? This is the future (and excitement) in engineering. This takes skill and hard work. All of the normal requirements for stiffness, durabilty and performance still apply. Anybody can make a part lighter by making it less durable or have less strength. You can't just buy a lighter but more expensive material, you can't simply check a box that eliminates and RPO code. You have to work for it.............hard................every single day.

There, just a few comments I thought might add to the discussion.

And PILL, it is clear that your posts are well thought out and researched as are the thoughts of the moderators here (DGthe3 being one). But that doesn't always mean we will agree.
Thank you for your comments, N. 3....

This thread is making me sick....
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