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Old 05-14-2011, 04:02 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
Sorry bud, sales volume does dictate the gas guzzler tax when the vehicle is penalized by it. It is also possible to reduce the amount of tax based on the sales volume like the CTS-V does. This was talked about months ago on Camaro5. I will post the document up here later after the race. The GT500 does not clear the gas guzzler tax, it is way below the 22.5. I will talk to you later about it, we will get educated on it.... Gotta go
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:23 PM   #30
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It appears that I can do both, monitor the race, update my Camaro5 post concerning the race and educate us on how the gas guzzler tax works at the same time.. How do I do this? I'm on a MAC... Here is the GG tax rules quoted then I will post the link after.
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The Gas Guzzler Tax for each vehicle is based on its combined city and highway fuel economy value. Manufacturers must follow U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) procedures to calculate the tax. The calculation uses a formula that weights fuel economy test results for city and highway driving cycles (the combined value is based on 55% city driving and 45% highway driving). Fuel economy values are calculated before sales begin for the model year. The total amount of the tax is determined later and is based on the total number of gas guzzler vehicles that were sold that year. It is assessed after production has ended for the model year and is paid by the vehicle manufacturer or importer.
EPA and manufacturers use the same test to measure vehicle fuel economy for the Gas Guzzler Tax and for new car fuel economy labels. However, the calculation procedures for tax and label purposes differ, resulting in different fuel economy values. This is because an adjustment factor is applied to the fuel economy test results for purposes of the label, but not for the tax. The adjustment is intended to help account for the differences between “real-world” and laboratory testing conditions.
EPA conducts fuel economy tests in a laboratory on a dynamometer (a device similar to a treadmill). Laboratory conditions can be different from real world conditions for such parameters as vehicle speeds, acceleration rates, driving patterns, ambient temperatures, fuel type, tire pressure, wind resistance, etc. EPA studies indicate that vehicles driven by typical drivers under typical road conditions get approximately 90 percent of the laboratory test-based city miles per gallon (mpg) value and approximately78 percent of laboratory highway mpg value. This difference is referred to as “in-use shortfall.” To account for the in-use shortfall, the city and highway mpg values listed in Fuel Economy Guide and shown on fuel economy labels are multiplied by 0.90 for the city test and 0.78 for the highway test. However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

Although exact production numbers are not discussed, numbers can be taken by vehicles we know that do not pass and get a pretty good idea where the limits are (and you need to talk to people that know about this stuff). The CTS-V was able to reduce its GG tax rate by selling under 10,000 units by a bracket, the GT500 was able to avoid the tax all together by selling less than 5500. It all depends on the amount the car is forced to pay and the amount sold as well.... I'm not trying to make you look dumb on this subject, I didn't even know about this until it was discussed and I searched for someone who was educated on the subject. Chevrolet has stated that the ZL1's production would not affect Chevrolets EPA rating (in so many words). That means that there will be a cap for the ZL1.

Let me know if you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them...
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #31
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
The way you think the gas guzzler tax test is performed is completely wrong, instead of telling me that my post is BS, please ask me how I come to my conclusions before you make me look like an idiot. As I said before, the GT500 did not pass the GG test, but the production numbers were low enough at the end of the year that Ford was able to avoid the tax completely based on the GT500's average full consumption (which was decent). If the CTS-V were to try the same thing only producing 5500, it would have still had to pay a tax, but it would not be the same rate as it is now. It is totally up to GM...

Please pay me some respect, when I post something... it isn't going to be BS...

Edit: You are correct about the window sticker MPG value though, here is what the EPA says...
Quote:
However, the combined city and highway fuel economy that is used to determine tax liability is not adjusted to account for in-use shortfall, so it is higher than the mpg values provided in the Fuel Economy Guide (www.fueleconomy.gov) and posted on the window stickers of new vehicles.

Last edited by thePill; 05-14-2011 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 05-14-2011, 04:32 PM   #33
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:37 PM   #34
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My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...
I would like to think that any future Camaro would be accepted by all Camaro enthusiasts. I have owned many Corvettes in my numerous years but this ZL1 will be my first Camaro. Hopefully one that I will hold on to until I no longer have the strength to press the clutch. I fell in love with the initial design and sat back knowing/wishing that Chevy would build a true HiPo version of the car. The ZL1 fulfills my every wish and then some. Every major component that I wanted and wished for in a factory Camaro came to life in the ZL1. I am sure that the engine will come in between 550 and 570HP, the magnetic suspension was something I did not think the Camaro would get. They beefed up the drive line, added HUD and made the car look stunning and aggressive. I simply cannot be happier unless they bring the car to market sooner. I am not sure if I am in your 1% or 99% group but I am very proud of the job that the Chevy team did and continues to do on this car.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:01 PM   #35
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I would like to think that any future Camaro would be accepted by all Camaro enthusiasts. I have owned many Corvettes in my numerous years but this ZL1 will be my first Camaro. Hopefully one that I will hold on to until I no longer have the strength to press the clutch. I fell in love with the initial design and sat back knowing/wishing that Chevy would build a true HiPo version of the car. The ZL1 fulfills my every wish and then some. Every major component that I wanted and wished for in a factory Camaro came to life in the ZL1. I am sure that the engine will come in between 550 and 570HP, the magnetic suspension was something I did not think the Camaro would get. They beefed up the drive line, added HUD and made the car look stunning and aggressive. I simply cannot be happier unless they bring the car to market sooner. I am not sure if I am in your 1% or 99% group but I am very proud of the job that the Chevy team did and continues to do on this car.
Bottom line, GM is saving the best for last. The ZL1 will be a great car, I wish I was able to talk about the ZL1 in depth but I cannot. The Z28 will be the highlight of the 5th Gen Camaro and whether or not it is done in collaboration with a redesign is unknown to me. There is obviously a great automotive event happening in 2014, and GM's sleeves have what is needed to damper that event and absorb some of the publicity. There is a strong fanbase under the 5th Gen Camaro, this thread was intended to ease the possibility of a 5th Gen Camaro that does not look like the 5th Gen Camaro that sits in your driveways right now. If the 5th Gen intends to only survive until 2015 then there is no need for a refresh but, wouldn't that be cutting the 5G's life a little short? I think that it has the staying power to make it until the Camaro's 50th anniversary in 2017. The Alpha Caddy won't come out until 2014-2015, I would expect the 6th Gen Camaro to take at least 2 years after the Alpha Caddy and after the Mustang III comes out to really maximize the R&D. A refresh has to happen at some point and what better time to turn up the heat than the release of the 2014 Mustang. GM could always opt to remain outside the pony car market and focus on profit, just remain in their own class for a few years. They could focus on the body work and make the Camaro appear to be smaller than it actually is but seeing the weight increases year over year could make that difficult... the 2012 FE4 Camaro 2SS should weigh close to 3950lbs, the 1SS is close to 4000lbs. That's a pretty heavy benchmark for the ZL1 to start at... We need a lightweight Z28 NOW....

I don't know if your in that 1% or not, I myself could be considered a 1%er... I have owned more Camaro's than most of the members here probably have.. and two plum purple Firebirds (ex-girlfriends idea, not mine).
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:17 PM   #36
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Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
I spent a day with the 2SS on Tuesday and some on Wednesday, the sedan feeling is mostly from the suspension. The FE4 option should be aimed at getting rid of that floating that you feel and go with harder springs. Under the "S" bends, the rear wiggled but found its place again upon exit with a little gas. The visibility is not that great, the drivers side A pillar is the worst. I imagine if a helmet was worn and we were strapped in via a 5 point, we wouldn't be able to move our heads to see around it. The torque was great, you can definitely feel the seat... I don't know if I would want to label these cars as "Muscle Cars", I remember what happened to the last batch of muscle cars, while our pony cars were defining the meaning of "Sports Coupes"....
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:08 PM   #37
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I just hope they bring the Z28 back, stuff an LS7 in it, and deliver it to me!
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:13 PM   #38
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I spent a day with the 2SS on Tuesday and some on Wednesday, the sedan feeling is mostly from the suspension. The FE4 option should be aimed at getting rid of that floating that you feel and go with harder springs. Under the "S" bends, the rear wiggled but found its place again upon exit with a little gas. The visibility is not that great, the drivers side A pillar is the worst. I imagine if a helmet was worn and we were strapped in via a 5 point, we wouldn't be able to move our heads to see around it. The torque was great, you can definitely feel the seat... I don't know if I would want to label these cars as "Muscle Cars", I remember what happened to the last batch of muscle cars, while our pony cars were defining the meaning of "Sports Coupes"....
Negative on that, check your stats, Camaro has 1.1 inches more headroom and 1.6 inch more shoulder room, a big plus for me who is 6'1" with a 46 chest and 17 inch biceps, also the seats are much more comfortable, in my humble opinion.
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:18 PM   #39
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Actually, the interior of the Camaro and Mustang are almost identical in size, with the exception that the Mustang has more headroom. The SS is sedan based, so feels more like a sedan than a sports car.
I totally disagree that the Camaro feels sedan -like, go back to your Mustang/Mopar forums...
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Old 05-14-2011, 08:43 PM   #40
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Bottom line, GM is saving the best for last. The ZL1 will be a great car, I wish I was able to talk about the ZL1 in depth but I cannot. The Z28 will be the highlight of the 5th Gen Camaro and whether or not it is done in collaboration with a redesign is unknown to me. There is obviously a great automotive event happening in 2014, and GM's sleeves have what is needed to damper that event and absorb some of the publicity. There is a strong fanbase under the 5th Gen Camaro, this thread was intended to ease the possibility of a 5th Gen Camaro that does not look like the 5th Gen Camaro that sits in your driveways right now. If the 5th Gen intends to only survive until 2015 then there is no need for a refresh but, wouldn't that be cutting the 5G's life a little short? I think that it has the staying power to make it until the Camaro's 50th anniversary in 2017. The Alpha Caddy won't come out until 2014-2015, I would expect the 6th Gen Camaro to take at least 2 years after the Alpha Caddy and after the Mustang III comes out to really maximize the R&D. A refresh has to happen at some point and what better time to turn up the heat than the release of the 2014 Mustang. GM could always opt to remain outside the pony car market and focus on profit, just remain in their own class for a few years. They could focus on the body work and make the Camaro appear to be smaller than it actually is but seeing the weight increases year over year could make that difficult... the 2012 FE4 Camaro 2SS should weigh close to 3950lbs, the 1SS is close to 4000lbs. That's a pretty heavy benchmark for the ZL1 to start at... We need a lightweight Z28 NOW....

I don't know if your in that 1% or not, I myself could be considered a 1%er... I have owned more Camaro's than most of the members here probably have.. and two plum purple Firebirds (ex-girlfriends idea, not mine).
What are you talking about?? the 2012 Camaro SS Manuel still weighs 3860lbs, the 2012 Camaro SS auto 3913lbs according to chevy order guide. Also there is no weight difference between a 2SS and 1SS, if anything the 1SS would be a couple of pounds lighter.

Edit: your entire post is your assumptions, stateing them as facts. The Fact is you and everybody else on this forum has no Idea what GM is up to except Fbodfather and maybe Number 3.
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:36 AM   #41
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What are you talking about?? the 2012 Camaro SS Manuel still weighs 3860lbs, the 2012 Camaro SS auto 3913lbs according to chevy order guide. Also there is no weight difference between a 2SS and 1SS, if anything the 1SS would be a couple of pounds lighter.

Edit: your entire post is your assumptions, stateing them as facts. The Fact is you and everybody else on this forum has no Idea what GM is up to except Fbodfather and maybe Number 3.
First, any thread with the Z28 in it is going to be full of assumptions with zero facts. This is all wishful thinking and has zero truth when concerning the Z28. Second, the 2011 LT model was also listed at 3741lbs and since it was the only vehicle that was really tested, it is the only one we can look at. The 2010 LT V6 did weigh 3741lbs but the following year the curb weight went up to 3769lbs. It is safe to assume that with the standard improvements and additional options, a small increase in weight was bound to happen. The LT is still listed as 3741lbs and that will never change. Google "2011 Camaro curb weight 3769lbs" and it will take you right to it.

With almost 20lbs of extra weight last year and at least 50lbs coming this year with a FE4 optioned SS. (power passenger seats are 20-25lbs themselves), we are looking at a 3950lbs 2SS this year. GM is in bad need of a stripper Z28 now more than ever... Leftlane list the 2011 2SS at 3902lbs and the LT is listed at 3780lbs but I don't know if those are autos or not, I will do some more research and see where the extra weight comes from...

Edit: Disregard, the 3902lbs is listed as a 6 speed manual. http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-camaro-ss.html

You can also google "2011 Camaro 2SS 3902 curb weight" and see many publications that use that curb weight for the 2SS. I myself cannot see that much weight being gained from 2010 to 2011, I can see a simple 15-20lbs being gained but that's about it... unless GM gets their curb weights will a half or 3/4 tank of gas which I heard they are permitted to do. This would hold weight as Edmunds tested the 2010 2SS at 3894lbs so seeing that the 2011 2SS is routinely tipping the scales over 3900lbs doesn't come as a surprise. It's also worth noting that the 2011 Camaro V6 automatic weighed 3800lbs even during the last 4 way comparison in Motor Trend. It gained 20lbs over the 2010 Camaro V6 auto (3780lbs) so it is safe to say that the entire lineup gained about 20lbs from 2010 to 2011. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/specs.html

Last edited by thePill; 05-15-2011 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:48 AM   #42
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Negative on that, check your stats, Camaro has 1.1 inches more headroom and 1.6 inch more shoulder room, a big plus for me who is 6'1" with a 46 chest and 17 inch biceps, also the seats are much more comfortable, in my humble opinion.
I don't know man, this is what is commonly listed.
2011 Camaro vs. 2011 Mustang

Headroom Showdown!!!!

Looks like the there is a 1.1" more head room but the Camaro has 1.3" more shoulder room... The seat were pretty comfortable, I just didn't like the headrest... Now, lets get back to the Z28...
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