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Old 05-15-2011, 04:39 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Perhaps the color (blackout) concept was borrowed.....but that's about it...Sorry to hear you're puking, I -and many others- LOVE the way the ZL1 looks.


GG tax is applied whether or not a vehicle line sells X amount of models. I'm not sure where you got your information from - but it's wrong as of this afternoon.

Visit the EPA's website and find where it mentions cars under a reserve amount sold are exempt:http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

The only exemptions I see are non-passenger, rail, limousines over 6000 lbs, ambulances, and trucks.

Also note the explanation of the in-use-shortfall as it pertains to the GG tax.






Thank you for your comments, N. 3....

This thread is making me sick....
In............a......................good way
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Old 05-15-2011, 04:45 PM   #52
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Never said there wouldn't or couldn't be one. That's why it's good to keep the discussion going so GM clearly knows there is a strong interest in such a car. My point was simply that until GM acknowledges anything no one can assume there is one based on Internet rumors and speculation. We went through this with the ZL1 for two years and those were good discussions IMO.
That's the main reason behind my Z28 campaign is to keep the chatter alive, it totally killed my momentum in your first post but gave me some hope on your follow up. I love solving problems, especially problems that seem hopeless but no problem that cannot be solved. I am met with resistance but who cares, that's half the fun. As for the super Mustang, we will save the details for when they are confirmed (and nobody will lose their job). That being said, I think the announcement of the Z28 will be a great defense to the next Gen Mustang. You really got me thinking now, I think a full Camaro lineup including the possible Z28 (released in spring 2013) would be difficult to beat. I am beginning to think that a mid Gen refresh would be better served as a last resort, maybe when the actual Mustang III hits the lots. I am working on the curb weight for the Z28 but need the weight of the FE4 option, for it will be an essential piece of the chassis.

By the way, thank you for reading my thread and the post that pertained to the Z28. Also, thank you for the respect on this perticular topic.
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Old 05-15-2011, 04:57 PM   #53
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In............a......................good way
Thaaat's it.......

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I am working on the curb weight for the Z28 but need the weight of the FE4 option, for it will be an essential piece of the chassis
It's standard, as it's a configuration of the suspension...not a "thing they added", per-say...
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:04 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
GG tax is applied whether or not a vehicle line sells X amount of models. I'm not sure where you got your information from - but it's wrong as of this afternoon.

Visit the EPA's website and find where it mentions cars under a reserve amount sold are exempt:http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler/420f06042.htm

The only exemptions I see are non-passenger, rail, limousines over 6000 lbs, ambulances, and trucks.

Also note the explanation of the in-use-shortfall as it pertains to the GG tax.

Thank you for your comments, N. 3....

This thread is making me sick....
I initially got my information from the EPA site and I posted it here. The GT500 isn't exempt, it just wasn't produced in high enough numbers to be taxed. It avoided the tax merely because of it's overall numbers sold for the year. I will try to dig up some more on this when I get back to a computer. None of this really matters though as the Z28 will have no problems avoiding the tax.

My intention is not to make anyone sick. Please give me a chance here to try and get some interest. I have invested a lot of my spare time on this.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:04 PM   #55
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Those wide body kits be nice.. Like to be able to fit wider rears..
I think just suttle look change like different splitter up front but continue to tweak body and suspension to handle better.. 2012 suppose to handle better we'll see
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:06 PM   #56
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My intention is not to make anyone sick. Please give me a chance here to try and get some interest. I have invested a lot of my spare time on this.
Interest has never been lacking.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:07 PM   #57
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Thaaat's it.......


It's standard, as it's a configuration of the suspension...not a "thing they added", per-say...
The sways and such...
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:08 PM   #58
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The sways and such...
Should be negligible, if not less...but that's something so detailed we haven't a chance at guessing till it's torn apart in a shop somewhere.

EDIT:

I hadn't realized they'd released information on the diameter of the new sways...

Off-hand, I don't know the diameter of the 2010-2011 or aftermarket sways...but here's the release on the 2012 FE4 improvement. I imagine we could infer a weight based on what we've been given.

Just keep in mind they're longer in 2012...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
FE4 suspension enhances performance

The new FE4 suspension debuts as a performance improvement for the Camaro SS coupe in 2012, focusing on more refined handling.

“Our objective was to create a more precise sport suspension for the SS coupe, with greater road-holding capability,” said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. ”We applied lessons learned from extensive track testing to better refine the suspension geometry for flatter cornering, a more neutral balance during hard turns, and minimized understeer at the limit.”

Elements of the FE4 package include:
  • Retuned front and rear dampers
  • New solid front (23 mm) and rear (24 mm) stabilizer bars
  • Twenty-inch aluminum wheels and P245/45R20 front/P275/40R20 rear tires (SS).
More than just new components, the new FE4 performance suspension incorporates learning from the ongoing development of the high-performance Camaro ZL1. In particular, the suspension geometry has been adjusted, including reshaped stabilizer bars that are repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. This results in more effective body control and more precise response in performance driving.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:18 PM   #59
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That's the main reason behind my Z28 campaign is to keep the chatter alive, it totally killed my momentum in your first post but gave me some hope on your follow up. I love solving problems, especially problems that seem hopeless but no problem that cannot be solved. I am met with resistance but who cares, that's half the fun. As for the super Mustang, we will save the details for when they are confirmed (and nobody will lose their job). That being said, I think the announcement of the Z28 will be a great defense to the next Gen Mustang. You really got me thinking now, I think a full Camaro lineup including the possible Z28 (released in spring 2013) would be difficult to beat. I am beginning to think that a mid Gen refresh would be better served as a last resort, maybe when the actual Mustang III hits the lots. I am working on the curb weight for the Z28 but need the weight of the FE4 option, for it will be an essential piece of the chassis.

By the way, thank you for reading my thread and the post that pertained to the Z28. Also, thank you for the respect on this perticular topic.
Pill, when you are talking in the speculative, all thoughts, ideas and opinions are fair game. Sometimes those discussions will delve into areas of fact (GG Tax) and hopefully the discussion remains respectful and we all learn from it.

As for the NG Mustang, your insights aren't off the wall. Even if you were going by your own instincts and ideas it's probably not far off from at least what Ford might like to do, even if they don't or can't. You seem fairly confident so I'll only say that my experience is that unless you know somebody who IS working on the program and IS risking their job by leaking information, then I wouldn't count on it. As I said, internet speculation, even good internet speculation can be a wide margin from fact. I see a LOT of "a guy I know........" comments about GM products on the internet that are so far off you would laugh if you knew the truth. In the industry, there is a lot of internal "what if we.............." and suddently somebody saw a memo or overheard a hallway conversation and it gets out as FACT....................only it was a 5 minute study that resulted in a "never mind, I thought we could go that way". So I'll defer to your confidence because I don't keep as close to Ford stuff other than our internal "counter intelligence" activity Besides, my friends at Ford don't tell me much other than how much they luuuvvvvvv their jobs. No, really they don't tell me anything. You'd think something would slip after that 3rd beverage, but nothing...................that I'd ever admit to.................comes up. Strange.

And for what it's worth, I believe we are at a historical time in the auto industry. In 2016, CAFE will rule the world as far as we know it today. Do an internet search and look at what China is proposing. They are actually worse than CAFE in the out years. In some worse case scenarios, they may be at 50 MPG + in the very near future. And with many cities in Europe proposing "no drive" times for gas AND diesel cars and trucks. CO2, Green House Gas regulations. They will drive us to a new and very different future. Even if oil is not a rare item, the demand for it in countries with rather large populations (China and India) will only go up. So we are at what I beleive to be the Zenith of gasoline fueled performance. The simple fact that you can go to Ford and GM and have a choice of 500+ HP cars is simply insane. And those cars still are capable of 20 mpg give or take. But 5 or 10 years, this simply will be so heavily regulated or cost constrained due to the price of fuel that it will simply be harder and harder to get cars like the ZL1, Z06, GT500 to market in such an affordable manner. It might be why I love these discussions. Talking about a Z28 is not far fetched today. It's a possibility..............it could happen.................maybe. But in by 2025 that conversation may require biblical tones to be realistic.

So could we tolerate a 2025 discussion about a Z28 with electric propulsion? Or is our historical reference to what a Z28 is make that impossible.

Hmmmmmm maybe too profound a question. It's easier to speculate on 2012 and 2013 than 2025. I haven't heard any rumors on 2025 yet. LOL
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:23 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Should be negligible, if not less...but that's something so detailed we haven't a chance at guessing till it's torn apart in a shop somewhere.

EDIT:

I hadn't realized they'd released information on the diameter of the new sways...

Off-hand, I don't know the diameter of the 2010-2011 or aftermarket sways...but here's the release on the 2012 FE4 improvement. I imagine we could infer a weight based on what we've been given.

Just keep in mind they're longer in 2012...
The FE4 option added some 40lbs to the Corvette but that included a bit more hardware. I believe the Z51's. That is something I would like to see on the Z28, the Z51's with the FE4 like the Z06.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:30 PM   #61
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The FE4 option added some 40lbs to the Corvette but that included a bit more hardware. I believe the Z51's. That is something I would like to see on the Z28, the Z51's with the FE4 like the Z06.
I wasn't aware they assigned the "FE4" designation to the Z51 package on Corvette...in any event, Z51 did add more heavy-duty components, including brake rotors.

Anyways, you may be more interested to look into the Grand Sport Corvette...it's a base Corvette with the Z06's suspension and bodywork. It replaced the Z51 package available on Corvettes.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #62
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Because I just traded in my 2009 s197 GT in for a 2010 2SS, I can speak a little about the Mustang vs Camaro.

Head room, the Mustang destroys the Camaro, I'm 6' and have already hit my head off the roof of the camaro 2x, I never hit it in the Mustang. It might be the seat position or the roof slant, but the Mustang wins that.

Shoulder width, Camaro hands down, the Camaro is a much more overall comfortable car. I'm 195 lbs and have a wide back.

Back seat, Camaro wins, the roof has a more aggressive slant to the back window, it gives the rear passengers more space directly above thier heads. People have hit their head on the back window of my mustang a few times (Im sure the 460whp didn't help that). Leg space seems about the same.

Ride, My camaro is lowered, and my Mustang was set up for drag racing (no front sway bar, anti-squat, etc..) so I can't compare the two. The Camaro is a more fun car to drive though.

acceleration, again, I cant compare because the mustang was heavily modified.

attention, they get about the same total amount of attention. The Camaro gets more attention from young people, the mustang got more from older people.

seat comfort, both are very comfortable

user interface (buttons, controls, etc..), mustang all the way. The camaro needs a bunch of clicks to get to any of the settings, the mustang was simplified. The camaro also has more features, so that might just be a trade off.

thats about all the comparisons I can think of, if you have one that you would like for me to think about, let me know.
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:47 PM   #63
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Pill, let's take an alternate look at a "speculated" Z28.
Start with a ZL1 and go "back" to a Z28. This could(?) be easier for GM, to de-content.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:18 PM   #64
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Pill, let's take an alternate look at a "speculated" Z28.
Start with a ZL1 and go "back" to a Z28. This could(?) be easier for GM, to de-content.
You could start with a SS and go "forward" to a Z/28.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:19 PM   #65
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I'd like to see a ZL1 minus the LSA, mag suspension and heavy power seats. Add back an LS3 with as close to 475hp as possible, an adjustable beefed up suspension and manual more supportive seats. Add a Z28 inspired front fascia, hood and rear spoiler.
Any thoughts?
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:20 PM   #66
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You could start with a SS and go "forward" to a Z/28.
Been there done that!
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:25 PM   #67
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I'd like to see a ZL1 minus the LSA, mag suspension and heavy power seats. Add back an LS3 with as close to 475hp as possible, an adjustable beefed up suspension and manual more supportive seats. Add a Z28 inspired front fascia, hood and rear spoiler.
Any thoughts?
You had me right up to the 475 HP LS3. Where is that supposed to come from exactly.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:38 PM   #68
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You had me right up to the 475 HP LS3. Where is that supposed to come from exactly.
One can dream right?!
I did say as close didn't I???
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:41 PM   #69
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BTW Number 3 would this way of doing things (stripping back from another model) assist in speeding up a project?
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Old 05-15-2011, 07:47 PM   #70
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One can dream right?!
I did say as close didn't I???
Sure, and not even saying it couldn't happen. It's just the toughets link in your list.


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BTW Number 3 would this way of doing things (stripping back from another model) assist in speeding up a project?
Most definitely. The more things you have that have already been tested and to meet your requirements, the easier it will be. So to simply take the chassis bits from the ZL1 and take away MR would be much easier than to try to develop another all new suspension. And to simply maintain an SS interior instead of an all new Z28 specific interior is a no brainer. So a unique fascia would be a bit of work, but a new engine or higher output engine would require some work. For example, if you get your 475 HP LS3 that you are dreaming of would you use the trans and rear axle from the SS? or would you use the heavier duty bits from the ZL1? The ZL1 with a lower output engine would be easier, but heavier. The SS driveline would require the same torque management in the base LS3. So the more KNOWNS you can start with the easier the work to get there.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:21 PM   #71
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Sure, and not even saying it couldn't happen. It's just the toughets link in your list.




Most definitely. The more things you have that have already been tested and to meet your requirements, the easier it will be. So to simply take the chassis bits from the ZL1 and take away MR would be much easier than to try to develop another all new suspension. And to simply maintain an SS interior instead of an all new Z28 specific interior is a no brainer. So a unique fascia would be a bit of work, but a new engine or higher output engine would require some work. For example, if you get your 475 HP LS3 that you are dreaming of would you use the trans and rear axle from the SS? or would you use the heavier duty bits from the ZL1? The ZL1 with a lower output engine would be easier, but heavier. The SS driveline would require the same torque management in the base LS3. So the more KNOWNS you can start with the easier the work to get there.
Thanks for your thoughts!
And most definately I(we) would want the ZL1 Heavy Duty goodies. For some this will be a platform for actual racing (kinda like a 60's Z28, wink wink). (ZL1 - LSA - MR)
I would look at this speculated Camaro (Z28) as a model to the ZL1, as the GS/Z06 is to the ZR1 Corvette.
It should fill a pricepoint missing from the Camaro line up around $40K. Speculating that the ZL1 is going to be $50K and the SS is now around $30k it makes marketing sense. It would give a ton of marketability (the Z28 name would be everywhere) at little relative investment cost. I'm sold!
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:45 PM   #72
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I'm Sorry but if there ever is a 5th Gen Z/28, it should come with the CTS-V,ZR1,ZL-1 Magna Ride suspension. A. I highly doubt it would save any wieght over your standard set up. B. It is one of the worlds Fastest responding suspension systems (Ferrari uses the same set up) for a potential Z/28, Magna ride is a No brainer.
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Old 05-16-2011, 04:28 AM   #73
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I'm Sorry but if there ever is a 5th Gen Z/28, it should come with the CTS-V,ZR1,ZL-1 Magna Ride suspension. A. I highly doubt it would save any wieght over your standard set up. B. It is one of the worlds Fastest responding suspension systems (Ferrari uses the same set up) for a potential Z/28, Magna ride is a No brainer.
I think the Magna Ride shocks are superior to anything on the market today and are about a decade ahead of their time... and there lays the problem. The Z28 will/should be intended to be taken from road to the track and be very competitive without any third party modifications. Magnetic Ride control is prohibited from competition in 99.9% of circuits... GM has very competitive, lightweight (as light as it can be) and fairly priced suspension setups/options available. As mentioned above, the Z51 and FE4 together was used on the Corvette Z06 and was the preferred setup by rabid Z06 track enthusiast. The Z28 will be the Z06 in the Camaro lineup and offering things like MRC and Carbon Ceramic rotors are going disqualify the Z28 from competition... it will also drive the cost up...

Here was the 2004 Z06's new options listing, this isn't the complete listing but it has the FE4 option and a brief explanation.
Quote:
New Features

(Z15) Commemorative Edition for Coupe and Convertible models - Coming Soon.
(Z16) Commemorative Edition for Z06 - Coming Soon.
(FE4) Z06 Performance Handling Package has revised shock valving from testing at Nurburgring race track in Germany.

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Old 05-16-2011, 10:30 AM   #74
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Thanks Pill my exact thoughts.
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Old 05-16-2011, 01:44 PM   #75
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Pill, when you are talking in the speculative, all thoughts, ideas and opinions are fair game. Sometimes those discussions will delve into areas of fact (GG Tax) and hopefully the discussion remains respectful and we all learn from it.

As for the NG Mustang, your insights aren't off the wall. Even if you were going by your own instincts and ideas it's probably not far off from at least what Ford might like to do, even if they don't or can't. You seem fairly confident so I'll only say that my experience is that unless you know somebody who IS working on the program and IS risking their job by leaking information, then I wouldn't count on it. As I said, internet speculation, even good internet speculation can be a wide margin from fact. I see a LOT of "a guy I know........" comments about GM products on the internet that are so far off you would laugh if you knew the truth. In the industry, there is a lot of internal "what if we.............." and suddently somebody saw a memo or overheard a hallway conversation and it gets out as FACT....................only it was a 5 minute study that resulted in a "never mind, I thought we could go that way". So I'll defer to your confidence because I don't keep as close to Ford stuff other than our internal "counter intelligence" activity Besides, my friends at Ford don't tell me much other than how much they luuuvvvvvv their jobs. No, really they don't tell me anything. You'd think something would slip after that 3rd beverage, but nothing...................that I'd ever admit to.................comes up. Strange.

And for what it's worth, I believe we are at a historical time in the auto industry. In 2016, CAFE will rule the world as far as we know it today. Do an internet search and look at what China is proposing. They are actually worse than CAFE in the out years. In some worse case scenarios, they may be at 50 MPG + in the very near future. And with many cities in Europe proposing "no drive" times for gas AND diesel cars and trucks. CO2, Green House Gas regulations. They will drive us to a new and very different future. Even if oil is not a rare item, the demand for it in countries with rather large populations (China and India) will only go up. So we are at what I beleive to be the Zenith of gasoline fueled performance. The simple fact that you can go to Ford and GM and have a choice of 500+ HP cars is simply insane. And those cars still are capable of 20 mpg give or take. But 5 or 10 years, this simply will be so heavily regulated or cost constrained due to the price of fuel that it will simply be harder and harder to get cars like the ZL1, Z06, GT500 to market in such an affordable manner. It might be why I love these discussions. Talking about a Z28 is not far fetched today. It's a possibility..............it could happen.................maybe. But in by 2025 that conversation may require biblical tones to be realistic.

So could we tolerate a 2025 discussion about a Z28 with electric propulsion? Or is our historical reference to what a Z28 is make that impossible.

Hmmmmmm maybe too profound a question. It's easier to speculate on 2012 and 2013 than 2025. I haven't heard any rumors on 2025 yet. LOL
I dread the day of wide spread us of electric propulsion, to me it means the death of Hot Roding cars.
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