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Old 05-16-2011, 06:02 PM   #85
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Magnetic ride control is great for what it is, but I'm not so sure its best for a Z28. I see the Z28 as being much like the Z06. The track star of the line up. The best thing about MR shocks is that they can go from being soft and comfortable to ultra stiff in an instant. Thats fine on top of the line models and luxury cars and exotics, but if its a track car ... soft and comfortable rank somewhat lower on the priority list. A well tuned shock could do just as well on a track as an MR shock would for less money. The sacrifice is a rougher ride on bad pavement. But I honestly think that the ones who want a Z28 would be fine with that, and a certain percentage might even enjoy those bumps ... it makes their car that extra bit more badass. And for those who don't like it, well ... there's always the ZL1.
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:04 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truth411 View Post
Someone just pull that number out of thin air and poeple quote it like the bible. The Magna Ride hasn't Stop the ZR1 From kicking A$$ and takeing names on the track, Heck ferrari uses the same system and I am unaware of competitions that forbid ferraris to compete competitely because of the suspension system it uses, same for the ZR1. No offense but you guys are full of Hot air.
I'm pretty sure MR is banned from racing (such as AMLS or other organizations), just like hundreds of other things you can find on a car from your local dealership which you won't see on a racecar.
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:22 PM   #87
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I'm 99% sure that 99% would be 99% happy if we knew a Z28 was 99% for sure. +/- 1

And the suspension should be a traditional adjustable set up. I hate to say it, but F**d got it right on the B**s.

C'mon Z28!!!

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Old 05-16-2011, 06:56 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
Magnetic ride control is great for what it is, but I'm not so sure its best for a Z28. I see the Z28 as being much like the Z06. The track star of the line up. The best thing about MR shocks is that they can go from being soft and comfortable to ultra stiff in an instant. Thats fine on top of the line models and luxury cars and exotics, but if its a track car ... soft and comfortable rank somewhat lower on the priority list. A well tuned shock could do just as well on a track as an MR shock would for less money. The sacrifice is a rougher ride on bad pavement. But I honestly think that the ones who want a Z28 would be fine with that, and a certain percentage might even enjoy those bumps ... it makes their car that extra bit more badass. And for those who don't like it, well ... there's always the ZL1.
Does it matter that you can get MR on the Z06 now ooooooooh with Carbon package.......................and dem ceramic brakes.

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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I'm pretty sure MR is banned from racing (such as AMLS or other organizations), just like hundreds of other things you can find on a car from your local dealership which you won't see on a racecar.
Pretty sure that would be correct

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I'm 99% sure that 99% would be 99% happy if we knew a Z28 was 99% for sure. +/- 1

And the suspension should be a traditional adjustable set up. I hate to say it, but F**d got it right in B**s.

C'mon Z28!!!
Boss shmoss.......pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh but forced to agree on fact. Ford did good. Pat on head, hold out milk bone. "Good boy, Ford. Such a good boy."
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:27 PM   #89
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I dread the day of wide spread us of electric propulsion, to me it means the death of Hot Roding cars.
But it could give a whole new meaning to the phrase: "Hot Wiring" cars...

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So...some of us want a Z28 that can be put on a race track against race-prepped vehicles and be competitive...from the showroom........

"..........................."

fwiw....and for some it'll be next to nothing...

Here's my ideal Z28 ''forumula"...I don't think I've ever posted it...

Z28: Performance-focus. Luxury not available.
Overview: Significant gains in handling performance, marginal straight-line improvement. This Z28 performs noticeably better than SS thanks to minor engine tweaks, aggressive gearing, and track-derived suspension. No extraordinary weight savings applied.

This vehicle will deliver maximum bang-for-your-buck on the track. But daily driving ability will be negatively effected when compared to the SS, and options are limited to the C+C, striping, and redefined RS package.

This, in the best metaphor that comes to mind, is the Z06 of Camaro.

Equipment:

1SS+

LS3 w/ factory CAI, shorty headers, revised tune. Est: 449hp/438tq
ZL1 brakes & rotors
ZL1 suspension geometry w/ stiffer springs, shocks (non-adjustable), and stabilizer bars
ZL1 powertrain upgrades
ZL1 aero treatments, except the front fascia
ZL1 tires
Z28-specific front fascia
Race-inspired 19" rims
Dual Mode Exahust
Cloth racing seats (factory 'legal')
Roll Cage
HUD

Performance:

Marginally faster than an SS in a straight line, significantly better handling. Marginally poorer handling than the ZL1 (noticeable difference in comfort/refinement), significantly slower in straight line.

What I envision....is the best of the Boss, and the Z06 v ZR1 relationship all mixed into one.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:40 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Does it matter that you can get MR on the Z06 now ooooooooh with Carbon package.......................and dem ceramic brakes.



Pretty sure that would be correct



Boss shmoss.......pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh but forced to agree on fact. Ford did good. Pat on head, hold out milk bone. "Good boy, Ford. Such a good boy."

The great thing about Ford doing good is that it is great incentive for GM to get it done better!
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:54 PM   #91
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Quote:
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Does it matter that you can get MR on the Z06 now ooooooooh with Carbon package.......................and dem ceramic brakes.
You could get it on later base C5's too couldn't you? The optional F55 suspension package?
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:20 PM   #92
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Dragoneye, I like your rendition of a new Z/28, with the key being basic, basic, and basic.


The hardest part is the Z/28 badging for the car.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:31 PM   #93
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What we need is to work on the car to formulate a Camaro that doesn't just speak to that 1%, but caters to the other 99% while improving on the areas only us... scratch that... only you, the 1% of enthusiast can identify with.
This sounds like something that was said inside a GM future camaro brand meeting back in 2006, cuz honestly we already have this.
The current camaro has a classic design, it's not perfect (nothing is) but no one is going to think it's ugly 2 years from now.
Change just for the sake of change is a sure fire way to screw up a design, and making the head lights look like my old 99 VW passat isn't the route I'd want chevy to take. Trying to smooth out the distinctive shape and lines on the front end just makes the facia look like every other generic car on the road.
When I think of cars that have a unique look that people never get tired of, I think of cars who's exterior shape rarely changes a lot, just gets refined over time.
Porshe, VW Beatle, corvette, mini cooper and many other brands rarely make major design changes. Constantly redesigning devalues the brand.
Now I'm not against change, I think a lot of the exterior changes on the zl1 are awesome but they are all subtle changes, and with this car I think that's the way to go. It's so easy to screw this cars design up, I'm not even sure I have total faith in chevy as the camaro is the only car chevy makes that's actually attractive to me and the guy responsible for the design is no longer with GM. So I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:35 PM   #94
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...I'm not even sure I have total faith in chevy as the camaro is the only car chevy makes that's actually attractive to me and the guy responsible for the design is no longer with GM. So I'll just keep my fingers crossed.
Not to downplay Sangyup Lee's design (He's got incredible talent)....but I'd like to reassure you...

He wasn't responsible for the car...in the flesh, anyways. That was Tom Peters and Ed Welburn and the rest of the GM design department. They set criteria for the artists to sketch around. Then they took Lee's concept sketch and made it real. And they're still there.

EDIT: In fact, it was them who helped shape the ZL1...."designed to function" I think was Welburn's words...Tom Peters did an interview about the car's design as well.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:19 AM   #95
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Dragoneye, I like your rendition of a new Z/28, with the key being basic, basic, and basic.


The hardest part is the Z/28 badging for the car.
Agree. I like it!

T
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:37 AM   #96
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Sorry, been in and out of the hospital lately no time to type, but it gave me some time to think...

It seems like the hardest piece to solve here will be the drivetrain since the suspension is pretty easy to sort out. Currently, the LS3 cannot reach 7000rpm (so says GM). The valvetrain has to be lighten a little bit so the LS3 can stretch its legs some. That may require some bottom end work as well so now were talking an entirely new engine. The LS7 is always an option, it is only 40lbs heavier than the LS3 but 100lbs lighter than the LSA. The horsepower is there, the rpm's are there but painfully, so is the cost. I would rather see a lightweight, revised LS3 used than an expensive LS7 but its always and option.

The transmission would be tricky but, if a revised LS3 went with more airflow via new intake and top end horsepower was the primary concern, then it is possible to keep the torque around 410-430lb ft. This would allow the Z28 to use the same TR6060 M10 transmission the 2SS does. If the LS7 was used, then the TR6060 MM6 or MZ6 (old 6.0 transmission) would be used but there comes a little more weight. In my opinion, the Z28 should used a revised LS3, with high end cams, intake and head work such as lightweight valvetrain (think LS9 heads). This revised LS3 could use the Z06's Z51 optioned TR6060 MZ6 that had a torque rating of 425lb ft (MM6 is validated to 470lb ft) but, that was used with the old 6.0. The MZ6 uses the same gear set as the old M12 and has a decent first gear ratio but compared to the current TR6060 M10 the 2SS uses. the M10 makes the MZ6 look out of date however, it was lighter than the current M10 as long as it wasn't a dual clutch.

The ZL1's cast iron differential would not be needed, the SS's differential would work just fine but... we will take the ZL1's halfshafts...

Too bad the bolt holes in the LS9 head castings are different than the LS3 blocks bolt holes, we could just swap them over to the LS3 an optimize them for a naturally aspired work. All we need is 7000 and some change for a redline, the LS3's hp peaks in the low 6000 anyway. Intake work would no doubt bring that peak up but as long as the redline allowed for some room to shift in the powerband were all good... I'll do some looking into the LS9 heads and see if the internals can be swapped by themselves...

Edit: What ever happened to the direct injection L92? Does it run? It was said to push well north of 450hp... I know the heads had to be re-redesigned, did the injectors move the intake pushrods back into the intake port? Is there any way to keep the offset pushrod guides/rods and offset .24 rocker arms on an LS3 and still find a spot for the DI injectors? Maybe moving the guide and rods back to where they were just to fit direct injection in there isn't so bad. I had heard that the Gen V engine's injectors are under the intake port, is there anyway that could be accomplished in the LS3 head?

Edit #2: The LS9 heads use a 12mm head bolt where the LS3 uses an 11mm. GM could use stepped bolts in the LS3 to swap heads or the LS3 block could be machined or just recasted to 12mm bolt holes. I'm seeing that the intake/exhaust valves on the LS3 are 2.16/1.60 where the LS9 uses 2.16/1.59, I don't understand why the 0.01 decrease in the exhaust valve but, whatever (correction, some sources show the LS3 with a 1.59 exhaust valve). Any thoughts on an LS3 with LS9 heads? We would have to bring the compression back up and the LS3 already uses flathead pistons. The LS9 used a thick head gasket which lower compression I believe but no need to worry about that on the LS3.

Last edited by thePill; 05-17-2011 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 05-17-2011, 05:50 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
You could get it on later base C5's too couldn't you? The optional F55 suspension package?
Yeah, the F55's was 1st Gen MRC and were known to overheat... and were hated by Z06 enthusiast.
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Old 05-17-2011, 06:23 AM   #98
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So far, for our Z28's LS3R we have:

Factory Cold Air Induction

Factory shorty headers or, LS9 exhaust manifolds or whatever they use on the ZL1

ZL1 Dual mode exhaust, may or may not include the exhaust manifolds

LS9 type head internals or LS9 head swap
Need a high flow factory intake, something for 7000+ rpms

TR6060 M10 transmission (a transmission with only one overdrive would be best). Might be time to call Getrag here in Germany, the Germans engineer the lightest, most compact transmissions in the world then have them outsourced to China to have then built for 1/3 the cost. Nothing wrong with a 108lbs manual transmission that cost $2000 new...

Dry sump LS3 please

450hp/430lb ft and probably about 30-40lbs lighter than the 2SS's equipment.

Z28 suspension:

ZL1 suspension geometry w/ stiffer springs, shocks (non-adjustable), and stabilizer bars (FE4+Z51, no MRC)

ZL1 Brakes and two piece rotors (front and rear). If we can keep the curb weight around the 2SS, we won't need large diameter rotors which will be way lighter even more considering that the front and rears will be two piece.

19" forged or flow formed aluminum wheels between 22-26lbs a piece.

ZL1 tires would be hard to fit on 19s but the CTS-V has proven that 295s work in the back and with a 3800lb curb weight, they could really get down to business.

We could lose a lot of weight with two piece 14fr/14rr inch rotors all around and even more with 19" aluminum wheels with 255s front 295 rear. 40-50lbs in wheels and tires, 12-20lbs in rotors. The suspension upgrades will likely be heavy but the rotors/wheels and tires might bring weight back to the green.

Edit: There were rumors of an LS8 that was also suppose to be supercharged, what if GM didn't put a supercharger on an LS9 and just let it flow naturally and called it an LS8. Can you imagine a 6.2 liter V8 that weighed 388lbs? It would be coveted by every road racer, autocrosser, drifter and hot rodder in the world... and would be expensive.. but I'm willing to be less expensive than an LS9... Lets do that, a N/A LS9 (called the LS8) using the carbon fiber LS5.5R high rise intake for high rpm power and call it a Z28. Or, we could take the 3.26 stroke of the Vortec 4800 V8 and make a 338ci/5.53 liter if the crank will fit... say hello to the RPM's and say bye bye to our torque, horsepower and RPM's are more important than torque for the track anyway and now we won't have to worry about exceeding our transmissions torque rating.

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