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Old 05-17-2011, 10:35 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by truth411 View Post
Wrong, The 1st gen fully loaded Z/28 was the most expensive version of the camaro. A fully loaded 69 Z/28 was more expensive than a loaded 396 SS (those vette brakes were not cheap).
You'd better go back and do some research as that statement is not entirely true. It was very easy to run the cost up higher on the 396/325hp and 396/350hp as they could have verts, auto tranny (extra cost) and AC. Not sure, but I think the 396/375hp could not have AC.
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:50 AM   #104
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Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo
It has never been stated that the Camaro will move to the alpha platform in 2015.

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Wrong, The 1st gen fully loaded Z/28 was the most expensive version of the camaro. A fully loaded 69 Z/28 was more expensive than a loaded 396 SS (those vette brakes were not cheap).
You need to go back and check the sales brochure from the 1st gens.

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Sorry But Heck no, The 1st gen Z/28 was about useing the best parts in GM's inventory to make the best possible track camaro. The 5th Gen should be the same, its a no brainer. 99% of people who would buy a Z/28 will take it to local track days on the weekend like me and would want a Z/28 design to give you the fastest possible lap times, That is the priority of the Z/28 above all else. Thus Magna ride is a no brainer.
Z/28 was all about what parts will make this car ready to race now and also be able to sell in the dealer. It may be fair to assume that half of likely Z28 owners will take the car to the track, but to state 99% as fact is not unless you have conducted some poll I was not involved in.

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Old 05-17-2011, 12:04 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo
The topic was brushed over but nothing is really confirmed at this point. I personally think 2015 is way to early to totally redesign the Camaro. The 5th Gen Camaro is probably one of the best selling Camaro's and generates the largest profit due to it's higher MSRP. The 5th Gen Camaro is also one of the major reasons GM is still producing cars because of its popularity and the rate at which it sold upon release. Redesigning a vehicle that has the potential to sustain its current sales is a really bad move, not saying that it will continue to hold its current sales volume, but if any car in GM's arsenal had that potential... it would be the Camaro. If GM were to redesign the Camaro in 2015, which I don't think they will, they would miss out on 300,000+ sales if the current sales pace continues. Think of it this way, the 5th Gens bills are almost paid for, the money that went into research, development, advertisement and promotions, production, personnel training, Oshawa's restructuring and who knows what else went into bringing the car to market. The Camaro is almost paid for and if you remember, the Camaro didn't have a generation change over so GM actually started from scratch. Usually, the previous generations profits contribute to the next generation and mitigate any initial cost involved until the product begins to move. If GM can hold out, if sales continue the pace they are on and if GM isn't fooled into prematurely redesigning the Camaro by their competitors redesigning their product... then I say wait to redesign the Camaro around a land mark event such as the 50th Anniversary. Besides, you never know what GM has up their sleeves for a mid-generation refresh, it could actually be better than the original and very easily carry the car another 2-3 years...
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:09 PM   #106
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I am beginning to think that the "99%" debate is from my "1% Camaro enthusiast" reference which is 99% true...

Anyway, this thread is gaining momentum, the 2013 Z28 should be right on schedule, Right Number 3?
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:57 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo
While I don't believe that the 5th gen will get a standard mid-cycle refresh, there are a few things to remember about Alpha and the 5.5L engine:

GM hasn't said much (if anything) regarding the Camaro moving to Alpha. They certainly haven't said that it will happen for the 2015 model year. Also, there isn't going to be a significant amount of weight lost in the next generation. Some people seem to be thinking that the next gen Camaro will lose 300 lbs or so and I just can't see that happening if GM keeps the content roughly the same as for the 5th gen and the price down to mid 20's for a V6 and low 30's for a V8. If it loses any more than 100 lbs I'll be surprised.

The 5.5L V8 is a race engine ONLY. Its displacement has nothing at all to do with the next generation of V8s from GM. It is 5.5L only because displacement is restricted in AMLS. When AMLS lowered the limit to 6.0L, they made their LS7.R 6.0L but the actual LS7 in the Z06 remained at 7.0L. If allowed to, GM would probably run a 7.4L engine (454 cu). When the next generation of V8s do come, they'll most likely have a size range comparable to what GM offers today. Some are saying that the two main sizes will be 5.3L and 6.2L.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:57 PM   #108
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My revised 2013 Camaro Z28 Ad, you will notice the Limited Edition Camaro Z28 GS.R's (Like the Boss 302 Laguna Seca). However, the first 99 Camaro Z28 GS.R's will receive the Z28 GS.R with the number, in which you ordered the Z28 GS.R, painted on the car in the usual areas where race cars place their numbers (doors, hood, rear bumper ect ect).
Racing package comes with:
-Adjustable front splitter and adjustable rear duck tail spoiler that easily bolts on and replaces the factory parts (similar to the splitter/spoiler on the Intimidator Camaro)
-Daytime headlight shields that match the racing stripes (as seen in pic #2)
-Rear seat delete with rear "Z" brace (instead of "X" brace, why not)
-Functional mail slot (as seen in pic #2)
-Fiber glass hood with hood pins
-Fiber glass trunk lid
-Brake duct kit replaces factory fog lights
-Functional rear brake ducts with brake duct kit (as seen in pic #2)
-Interior radiator guard for upper and lower grille
-Front and rear tow hooks (as seen in pic #2)
-Decal package containing all you see below

Just a gimmic really, nothing special except the number in which you placed your order painted on the car... something special for that 1%.

Of course the regular Z28's will still be available at the base MSRP whatever it may be...
Attached Images
  

Last edited by thePill; 05-17-2011 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:06 PM   #109
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2015 may seem early for the Camaro to take its next step butbi don't see GM releasing the alpha platform without the Camaro. GM has 2 reasons to do so. One is to keep the #1 seller ontop by creating a NEW Camaro to stay ahead of the pack. #2 reason is to share costs for the new alpha with other GM cars. The new 5.5l v8 and alpha chases scream Camaro.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:28 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
2015 may seem early for the Camaro to take its next step butbi don't see GM releasing the alpha platform without the Camaro. GM has 2 reasons to do so. One is to keep the #1 seller ontop by creating a NEW Camaro to stay ahead of the pack. #2 reason is to share costs for the new alpha with other GM cars. The new 5.5l v8 and alpha chases scream Camaro.
I hear ya man but that Alpha platform will run its course on the Cadillac first. The Alpha platform should pretty much be paid for from previous models and the cost should be split because technically, Caddy and Chevrolet won't share cost. It will take GM 2 years after they get their hands on a new Mustang in April 2014 so they have something to benchmark off of. The Gen V engine is no where near finished, the plant that the Gen V will be produced in up in New York just started production and the Alpha Caddy is still in the planning phase if I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong). If the 5th Gen can make it till 2016 for a 2017 6th Gen Camaro, GM should go for it. If the Camaro's sales dip down into the Challenger's territory (or lower) and the new Mustang is outselling the Camaro 4 to 1 or greater (with Aussie sales and no Falcon) then it wouldn't be a bad idea to discontinue the 5th Gen ASAP....
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:36 PM   #111
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My revised 2013 Camaro Z28 Ad, you will notice the Limited Edition Camaro Z28 GS.R's (Like the Boss 302 Laguna Seca). However, the first 99 Camaro Z28 GS.R's will receive the Z28 GS.R with the number, in which you ordered the Z28 GS.R, painted on the car in the usual areas where race cars place their numbers (doors, hood, rear bumper ect ect).
Racing package comes with:
-Adjustable front splitter and adjustable rear duck tail spoiler that easily bolts on and replaces the factory parts (similar to the splitter/spoiler on the Intimidator Camaro)
-Daytime headlight shields that match the racing stripes (as seen in pic #2)
-Rear seat delete with rear "Z" brace (instead of "X" brace, why not)
-Functional mail slot (as seen in pic #2)
-Fiber glass hood with hood pins
-Fiber glass trunk lid
-Brake duct kit replaces factory fog lights
-Functional rear brake ducts with brake duct kit (as seen in pic #2)
-Interior radiator guard for upper and lower grille
-Front and rear tow hooks (as seen in pic #2)
-Decal package containing all you see below

Just a gimmic really, nothing special except the number in which you placed your order painted on the car... something special for that 1%.

Of course the regular Z28's will still be available at the base MSRP whatever it may be...
I would like to see the rear seats easily removable for the standard Z28, so you can carry people but also remove them for a day at the track.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:38 PM   #112
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While I don't believe that the 5th gen will get a standard mid-cycle refresh, there are a few things to remember about Alpha and the 5.5L engine:

GM hasn't said much (if anything) regarding the Camaro moving to Alpha. They certainly haven't said that it will happen for the 2015 model year. Also, there isn't going to be a significant amount of weight lost in the next generation. Some people seem to be thinking that the next gen Camaro will lose 300 lbs or so and I just can't see that happening if GM keeps the content roughly the same as for the 5th gen and the price down to mid 20's for a V6 and low 30's for a V8. If it loses any more than 100 lbs I'll be surprised.

The 5.5L V8 is a race engine ONLY. Its displacement has nothing at all to do with the next generation of V8s from GM. It is 5.5L only because displacement is restricted in AMLS. When AMLS lowered the limit to 6.0L, they made their LS7.R 6.0L but the actual LS7 in the Z06 remained at 7.0L. If allowed to, GM would probably run a 7.4L engine (454 cu). When the next generation of V8s do come, they'll most likely have a size range comparable to what GM offers today. Some are saying that the two main sizes will be 5.3L and 6.2L.
I agree with everything you said except, I believe the Alpha Camaro, if there is one, will be drastically lighter than the current car. The ATS with its base engine (4 or 6, I cant remember) is suppose to be about 3300-3400lbs, while the V8 is expected to be 3500-3600lbs. I know this is all speculation but, if that is the benchmark I totally expect Cadillac to come pretty close to those weights. Every new model vehicle will be built with weight savings in mind where previous models were not. Both Ford and GM are doing some pretty special things with high strength steel in the safety cage, engine cradle, suspension and other points within the car to make it lighter. Aluminum will be more plentiful on the next gen Camaro along with your plastics.

You also have to think about the Camaro down sizing a bit by reducing track, width, length and wheelbase perhaps a little closer to the Corvette. Inches off the vehicle are pounds as well... have faith in engineering and new materials... If GM intends for the Alpha Camaro to carry the Ecotec 2.0 then the Camaro absolutely has to be 3300-3400lbs with the engine, lower if god permits.

Edit: By the way, I have heard that the 6th Gen Camaro is going back to the swept look that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gens had. That rumor received a 50/50 response, I am still on the /
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:39 PM   #113
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I would like to see the rear seats easily removable for the standard Z28, so you can carry people but also remove them for a day at the track.
That is how the Laguna Seca is I believe... The Laguna Seca is sold with the back seat and Ford ships the X brace and the front splitter to the dealer for you to pick up after purchase.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:43 PM   #114
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You see, the Mustang and Camaro are practically related...
Yeah, I can see that too.

They look like a Dodge Charger was putting it to a Ford Mustang and our Camaro's are the results of that unholy union...

BUT I like it!!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:49 PM   #115
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pill i like you, you think outside of the box and it seems that me and you think like. lol prob is my typing looks like my brain all jumbled from one thought to another and off on another and another lol anyway, 3300 would be perfect maybe lower for performance, fuel, and emissions that the new CAFE regulations are going to impliment. honestly i dont see engines really improving to much, (my idea) get the part that spins the wheels to amplfy the power output of the engine.....are you listening gm...less fuel to power the engine to max load and all the added stress should be on the "transmission" im still working the details and yes this would change how the car industry
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:52 PM   #116
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The picture below looks like a more race oriented ZL1, although the bumper cover itself is far to slender, the design is pretty cool. Put the Jay Leno hood on this Camaro and it would have my vote.



I can see a 2013 Z28 here but I'm having trouble getting away from the current design...


Here are some interesting lower fascia work. I love the first picture below, it is simple and very functional. It is similar to the 2012 Boss 302's lower valance that shovels cool air into the radiator and has the capability to mount a brake duct kit on each side. The second pic is really just a one piece splitter but the raised fascia section around the fog light is unique. The third pic is an advanced bumper cover and front fascia with primary brake duct ports in the fascia and secondary duct ports in the lower valance. The whole design is more rounded and really creates a more sleek look to the 5th Gen. The splitter is a two piece design and is part of the fascia and is not just a bolt on. This is a very modern look and while it may look a little busy, I would like to graph the GT.R's headlight covers onto this rendition and see what we get. Also, you see the hips on the third pic look more like a fin and express much sharper lines in the rear (Corvette style). Someone mentioned earlier that GM needs to do rework the body panels to make the Camaro appear to be smaller than it actually is. This would mean tucking in some of HUGE rear end and front fascia. I was in one of these Camaro's yesterday (for research) and upon approaching the vehicle, it always astonishes me how physically big this car is. It makes my Mustang look tiny...
\



The last pic is pretty sweet, it is like a cross between a camaro and vette...pretty dope.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:57 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePill View Post
My revised 2013 Camaro Z28 Ad, you will notice the Limited Edition Camaro Z28 GS.R's (Like the Boss 302 Laguna Seca). However, the first 99 Camaro Z28 GS.R's will receive the Z28 GS.R with the number, in which you ordered the Z28 GS.R, painted on the car in the usual areas where race cars place their numbers (doors, hood, rear bumper ect ect).
Racing package comes with:
-Adjustable front splitter and adjustable rear duck tail spoiler that easily bolts on and replaces the factory parts (similar to the splitter/spoiler on the Intimidator Camaro)
-Daytime headlight shields that match the racing stripes (as seen in pic #2)
-Rear seat delete with rear "Z" brace (instead of "X" brace, why not)
-Functional mail slot (as seen in pic #2)
-Fiber glass hood with hood pins
-Fiber glass trunk lid
-Brake duct kit replaces factory fog lights
-Functional rear brake ducts with brake duct kit (as seen in pic #2)
-Interior radiator guard for upper and lower grille
-Front and rear tow hooks (as seen in pic #2)
-Decal package containing all you see below

Just a gimmic really, nothing special except the number in which you placed your order painted on the car... something special for that 1%.

Of course the regular Z28's will still be available at the base MSRP whatever it may be...

There you go getting off "basic".
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:59 PM   #118
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pill i like you, you think outside of the box and it seems that me and you think like. lol prob is my typing looks like my brain all jumbled from one thought to another and off on another and another lol anyway, 3300 would be perfect maybe lower for performance, fuel, and emissions that the new CAFE regulations are going to impliment. honestly i dont see engines really improving to much, (my idea) get the part that spins the wheels to amplfy the power output of the engine.....are you listening gm...less fuel to power the engine to max load and all the added stress should be on the "transmission" im still working the details and yes this would change how the car industry
Just after I typed that I ran across this interesting piece of info. Seems that GM is having trouble keeping the weight down in the Alpha platform. This is another reason why it is better that the 6th Gen Camaro comes out last, after GM figures all this out..

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...dreams-103001/
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:00 PM   #119
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yeah i read that too not surprised really
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