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Old 05-19-2011, 08:32 AM   #176
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I may be the only one but something just does work with that nose, could be the angle I don't know
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:08 AM   #177
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Its not excueses, its engineering. And you don't have to accept how they build things, there are a dozen other automakers who you can buy from if you want. But only GM makes Camaros.

As for cost ... there's never a free lunch. Everything always costs something. Be it money, or weight, or quality/effectiveness. Take the structure of the car for example. They went with a low cost structure that was very strong. As a result, its heavy. For about the same cost they could make it lighter by going with less steel. Problem is, its not nearly as strong anymore (lowering the quality/effectiveness). Alternatively, they could have kept it strong and went with another metal, such as aluminum, to save weight. But now its expensive.

Balancing those factors, along with many others, is whats at the core of engineering. It applies to all the parts in the car.
its not that i dont understand the balance and trade off of things, to be honest yes there are other car companies that make great cars are they expensive? yes but mostly because you can customize them to the t. i bought a camaro because of its infinite return and when i was in high school everyone had one ( the fbod era) and i wanted one. they stopped making them and of course i moved on. i bought the new one loved it at first but kinda on impulse which was my fault to begin with i know. i think number 3 finally said the answer "what is gm here for? make money plain and simple." there is a government trade off and unless you have money to talk i dont think gm will ever build anything that makes us truly happy just for those reasons. to answer number 3 question about the z06, how insulting is it that you have the ford boss just beat every record that the z06 had and is still beating them even more. a 90K car vs a 48K i believe, who wouldnt want that trade off. Gm has been issued a challenge are they going to except and make the car gods happy? probly not. but it is fun to think about and talk
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:19 AM   #178
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I may be the only one but something just does work with that nose, could be the angle I don't know
The fascia is a mix between the SS and the ZL1. My intention was solely to clean up the front fascia and be strictly business in the front because I wanted maximum grille area for airflow. I tried to even out the factory splitter with the side splitters and got close enough, the splitter basically runs down the entire length of the car and into the rear brake ducts.

The Z28 needs a unique fascia with form and function but not a fascia that is cluttered. The fascia needs to show relation to all other Camaro models by adopting an aspect from each and applying those simple physics together. The wide open lower valance, the fog lights and the mail slot delete are each taken from the ZL1, SS and LT while the while the bowtie delete and badge draws the Z28 away from the others. This is what I would want the Z28 to look like...

What we absolutely DO NOT want is a Z28 that is a mini-ZL1, no light clusters or brake ducts that use to be light clusters, no ZL1 mohawk heat extractor (carbon fiber inserts would be cool for the Leno heat extractors).

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:21 AM   #179
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its not that i dont understand the balance and trade off of things, to be honest yes there are other car companies that make great cars are they expensive? yes but mostly because you can customize them to the t. i bought a camaro because of its infinite return and when i was in high school everyone had one ( the fbod era) and i wanted one. they stopped making them and of course i moved on. i bought the new one loved it at first but kinda on impulse which was my fault to begin with i know. i think number 3 finally said the answer "what is gm here for? make money plain and simple." there is a government trade off and unless you have money to talk i dont think gm will ever build anything that makes us truly happy just for those reasons. to answer number 3 question about the z06, how insulting is it that you have the ford boss just beat every record that the z06 had and is still beating them even more. a 90K car vs a 48K i believe, who wouldnt want that trade off. Gm has been issued a challenge are they going to except and make the car gods happy? probly not. but it is fun to think about and talk
Ummm where did you get this info on the boss destroying a Z06?
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:43 AM   #180
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http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

not only that its 500 lbs heavier
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:21 AM   #181
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http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

not only that its 500 lbs heavier
Different drivers, different days ...
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:23 AM   #182
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Different drivers, different days ...
numbers are numbers in this game
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:55 AM   #183
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That's an 05' Z06.
However the fact that the Boss is in that company is awesome. If a Camaro performed like that for those $$ I'd own it
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:17 AM   #184
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numbers are numbers in this game
whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:21 AM   #185
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whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
weither it beats it or not dollar for dollar it has a better value for what it does and who it has to compete with and hang
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:26 AM   #186
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whenever any car manufacturer flys out their own driver, expect great lap times. If GM did the same the Z06 lap times would be even faster. In any case if anybody thinks the boss is going to be "crushing" the Z06s at your local track days, your going to be disappointed. But the boss is a decent package.
Actually, those times were accomplished by Road and Track and Motor Trend. The driver that Ford invited to drive the Boss at Laguna Seca never released what the actual times were. Ford just stated that the times were sub 1:39 which was far faster than Ford's 1:42 goal. For the record, both Ford and GM use their own drivers to acquire the fastest lap times, an example of this would be the CTS-V's run at the Ring.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:36 AM   #187
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It has been many years since GM has done a refresh of any car after only 3 years, and I don't see them changing the trend with the Camaro. That's not to say I would be against it, but I don't think it will happen.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:47 AM   #188
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Just waiting on the approval from Team Camaro...
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Old 05-19-2011, 01:25 PM   #189
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Actually, those times were accomplished by Road and Track and Motor Trend. The driver that Ford invited to drive the Boss at Laguna Seca never released what the actual times were. Ford just stated that the times were sub 1:39 which was far faster than Ford's 1:42 goal. For the record, both Ford and GM use their own drivers to acquire the fastest lap times, an example of this would be the CTS-V's run at the Ring.
Incorrect according to the article I read.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:19 PM   #190
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Incorrect according to the article I read.
But I am at work and can't post the link.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:22 PM   #191
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weither it beats it or not dollar for dollar it has a better value for what it does and who it has to compete with and hang
Dollar for Dollar I would still take a Z06, (They are really that fast). A better lap comparision would be Car and Driver's Lightning lap since they use the same driver for all cars. Thus generaly speaking the difference in lap times comes down to each cars abilities not the driver.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:58 PM   #192
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You also have to consider the track. Different courses for different horses. I think by picking Laguna, there is a slight advantage to the lower HP car.

Anyone that's driven a Z06 knows the car is wayyyyyyyy under tired for the low weight and high HP. And without a long straight to stretch it out, the Z06 didn't get to show it's stuff.

For example, I have been told that the Cup Tires offered as an option on the 2012 Z06 alone cut 2 to 3 seconds PER LAP at one of the local tracks.

Boss is a fine package, but not so fine as to run with a car 500 pounds lighter and 60 HP short. Math isn't there.
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:58 PM   #193
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You also have to consider the track. Different courses for different horses. I think by picking Laguna, there is a slight advantage to the lower HP car.

Anyone that's driven a Z06 knows the car is wayyyyyyyy under tired for the low weight and high HP. And without a long straight to stretch it out, the Z06 didn't get to show it's stuff.

For example, I have been told that the Cup Tires offered as an option on the 2012 Z06 alone cut 2 to 3 seconds PER LAP at one of the local tracks.

Boss is a fine package, but not so fine as to run with a car 500 pounds lighter and 60 HP short. Math isn't there.
If I was willing to spend $80K+ I would jump on a black Z06. The black ones are one of the meanest looking cars ever!!! Stats are incredible.

Number 3, how does the Z06 Carbon (loaded for bear) fair in most racing circumstances to the ZR1?
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:46 PM   #194
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If I was willing to spend $80K+ I would jump on a black Z06. The black ones are one of the meanest looking cars ever!!! Stats are incredible.

Number 3, how does the Z06 Carbon (loaded for bear) fair in most racing circumstances to the ZR1?
Hoping to sample one of those soon. With MR and the brakes it's essentially a ZR1with a bit less HP. But I haven't seen or heard any good comparisons yet.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:54 PM   #195
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But it is quite a bit lighter isn't it
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:05 AM   #196
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But it is quite a bit lighter isn't it
I think the Z06 is about 150 pounds or so lighter. The ZR1 has the SC and some more sound deadener, I am not sure if the Carbon Package gives you the CF roof panel and roof bow or not, but it's not lighter enough to make up for the 130 HP shortfall. And with the brakes etc., the price of the Z06 starts to climb around $90,000 I think so at that point go big.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:12 AM   #197
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I think the Z06 is about 150 pounds or so lighter. The ZR1 has the SC and some more sound deadener, I am not sure if the Carbon Package gives you the CF roof panel and roof bow or not, but it's not lighter enough to make up for the 130 HP shortfall. And with the brakes etc., the price of the Z06 starts to climb around $90,000 I think so at that point go big.
It still makes me very uncomfortable comparing a Mustang to a Corvette which is all the more reason to bring a Z28 to market. I think we made a lot of progression here especially in the body/styling department and some great ideas for the powertrain were brought up too. The Z06 is a vehicle for car enthusiast and I believe the Z28 could also fill those shoes. That also has me thinking that an LS7 would be a great choice for the Z28 but I personally still feel that a worked LS3 would ultimately be the best decision because there are just too many positives. There have been well over 3000 views on this thread and that means there is obviously some interest in the subject.

The bowtie delete we did on the 2013 Z28 concept does draw a strong resemblance to the 1969 Z28 as WYKOFF69Z said and I was wondering how you felt with our Z28 rendition so far. To me, the refresh is subtle and would be looked over by someone that wasn’t familiar with the 5th Gen. I particularly love the rear end, the reduction in overall length and overhang behind the rear wheels was definitely an improvement. The hood line was reduced to improve visibility and give the 5th Gen a more aggressive look. I love the reduction in the front end but I am curious as to whether or not the engine would have to be lowered or not. The reduction was between 2 and 3 inches and I feared that the engine would have to be mounted lower and that the whole frame would have to be altered. I am sure I could revise the hood itself to accommodate the engine but really want to keep the visibility if it was possible. We will work on the weight some over the weekend and see where a hypothetical Z28 stands, that way we can start doing figures for the rotor diameters. With all the new standard equipment coming on the 2012 Camaro's, we have no choice but to drastically remove weight from the Z28... My target curb weight is 3700lbs even (I know its crazy), that is about 200lbs less than the 2012 2SS...

Anyway, I am pretty excited about the concept, just wanted some feedback on it or some additional direction. There is a market for this type of Camaro and I feel that Camaro enthusiast need their version of a Z06… What do you think?

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Old 05-20-2011, 09:57 AM   #198
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Yes clean looking and aggressive at the same time.
But the enormous wheels have to go. Light weight 20x10's are fine with 295x35's all around. The short overhang looks good, however trunk space will be lost.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:35 PM   #199
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Yes clean looking and aggressive at the same time.
But the enormous wheels have to go. Light weight 20x10's are fine with 295x35's all around. The short overhang looks good, however trunk space will be lost.
I love the looks, this refresh will definitely make the original 5th Gen owners jealous. The wheels are not my idea, if anyone has come to know what I am about they would know that I am totally against 20 inch wheels (19's as well). The Z28 would come with factory 19x9's front, 19x9.5's rear. Just by downsizing the wheels from 20's will see a nice weight loss and I say we could go with 255/40ZR19 front and 285/35ZR19. If we wanted to push for a 305/35ZR19 on the rear, we would have to go to a 10 inch wheel in the back which isn't a problem. The last I heard, GM was extremely strict on wheels when it comes to durability testing, that could make it difficult to find a 25lb forged wheel. I would love to see 25lb wheels on a factory Z28. At that weight, there would be almost 30lbs in weight saved in wheels alone. Briefly skimming over the tire weights for 255/285s, we could get about 50lbs from wheels and tires alone.

Trunk space: Uggg... this is something Car and Driver will throw a tantrum over, trunk space... Since we are doing a refresh, we could possibly try to come up with the extra trunk space somewhere else. We could try a little misdirection with the media... The truck opening on the Camaro is very small but if we incorporated a larger trunk opening/trunk lid into the refresh that reduces the overhang by 3-4 inches, maybe that would be a fair compromise. We could give an inch but take a mile, creating a bigger opening that people could effectively use the truck space they have. You have to think about the refresh though, we wouldn't take all of those 4 inches from the trunk, we could take some from the bumper (exterior) and some from the trunk.

Great observation though, something that Team Z would have to look into...


Edit: The 3-4 inch from the rear end was a guesstimation, it could possibly be more.. It was a decent size chunk that I pulled back though...
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:42 PM   #200
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I wouldn't mind if Team Camaro took a crack at the Z28 in 2013 under the current 5th Gen design. I think it would be great for the brand to release a Z28 and then offer an new Z28 the following year, refreshed. It's not like they won't sell them...
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