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Old 05-17-2011, 03:03 PM   #120
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yeah i read that too not surprised really
They will figure it out, most of that weight is Cadillac's requirements.
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According to sources familiar with the Alpha program both internally at GM and the supplier level, GM has made several other additions to the requirement list of Alpha beyond engines. Among the additions were: a new electronics system and aerodynamic shutters (similar to the Volt).

Each addition has caused another issue to engineer around, thus causing the Alpha program to exceed GM's mass requirements for the car by nearly 500-pounds. It is unclear how heavy Alpha products will be, but every independent Alpha source GMI has communicated with has indicated that the final curb weight could push 4,000-pounds unless GM puts the program on a mass reduction plan before launch.

Another issue the Alpha program has been strapped with is the addition of Alpha+ about halfway through development. The Alpha+ chassis is a larger variant of Alpha, intended for use with the next-generation Cadillac CTS. Naturally, Cadillac has another list of requirements for Alpha+, including the need to accommodate twin-turbo V-6 engines. This has added another layer of complexity to the Alpha program, driving up both costs and mass.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:05 PM   #121
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very true cost vs. mass has been a prob gm has battle with alot and it looks like they dont have a choice and are rushing everything till 2016
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:12 PM   #122
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very true cost vs. mass has been a prob gm has battle with alot and it looks like they dont have a choice and are rushing everything till 2016
I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this but, this is something Ford has learned to do that will make it possible to still share a chassis but not be overwhelmed by sedan requirements from a brother company (or cousin company). Ford dumped a lot of money into the Shelby Cobra/GR-1 chassis about 4 or 5 years ago. It was based on the Ford GT and will most definitely underpin the new Ford GT. Ford will hash out a sports coupe from the chassis that will be the Mustang III, although, it will look nothing like its big brothers. It seems once Cadillac gets involved, their requested requirements start increasing the weight. Caddy doesn't have to worry about weight, but the Camaro does... It's better to start with a chassis that underpins a 2200lb sports car and make it a 3400lb sport coupe that start with a 4200lb sedan and try to make it a 3400lb sports coupe... I say, cut the Caddy out but that isn't going to happen. Looks like the 5th Gen will be around for awhile afterall...
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:14 PM   #123
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lol well they did work with a certain "company" and i think your secret is safe till you see the "horsemen" lol
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:18 PM   #124
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I agree with everything you said except, I believe the Alpha Camaro, if there is one, will be drastically lighter than the current car. The ATS with its base engine (4 or 6, I cant remember) is suppose to be about 3300-3400lbs, while the V8 is expected to be 3500-3600lbs. I know this is all speculation but, if that is the benchmark I totally expect Cadillac to come pretty close to those weights. Every new model vehicle will be built with weight savings in mind where previous models were not. Both Ford and GM are doing some pretty special things with high strength steel in the safety cage, engine cradle, suspension and other points within the car to make it lighter. Aluminum will be more plentiful on the next gen Camaro along with your plastics.

You also have to think about the Camaro down sizing a bit by reducing track, width, length and wheelbase perhaps a little closer to the Corvette. Inches off the vehicle are pounds as well... have faith in engineering and new materials... If GM intends for the Alpha Camaro to carry the Ecotec 2.0 then the Camaro absolutely has to be 3300-3400lbs with the engine, lower if god permits.

Edit: By the way, I have heard that the 6th Gen Camaro is going back to the swept look that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gens had. That rumor received a 50/50 response, I am still on the /
I have faith in engineering, its what I do for a living. What I don't have faith in is dreams and miracles. Simply put, sheet metal is fairly light & cheap. Content is heavy. Safety is heavy. Structural rigidity is heavy. Aluminum is expensive. Composites are expensive.

You will not save 300 lbs by cutting a few inches off the footprint. You can decontent the car by removing sound deadening, no more powered heated seats, cheap lightweight 4 speaker stereos, and all sorts of other stuff. That would save hundreds of lbs (and quite a bit of money too). It would also turn away tens of thousands of buyers. There is no way around safety regulations so you can't really save weight that way. You can skimp a bit on the rigidity if you plan on keeping it below 400 hp and coupe only, but that means no more V8. They could build the body out of aluminum and save weight, but now a V6 costs as much as an SS used to, and the design becomes much more limited since you can't form aluminum like steel.

I'm not sure where you're getting your 3600 lb CTS V8 from. As recently as yesterday, I heard that Alpha is crowding 4000 lbs, which presumably is a V8 Alpha+ (probably next gen CTS-V)
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My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:27 PM   #125
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honestly not to be rude it just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that gm has thrown in the towel and that we just have to accept how they build things......my response to expenses is get it done it is there job isnt it?
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:29 PM   #126
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I have faith in engineering, its what I do for a living. What I don't have faith in is dreams and miracles. Simply put, sheet metal is fairly light & cheap. Content is heavy. Safety is heavy. Structural rigidity is heavy. Aluminum is expensive. Composites are expensive.

You will not save 300 lbs by cutting a few inches off the footprint. You can decontent the car by removing sound deadening, no more powered heated seats, cheap lightweight 4 speaker stereos, and all sorts of other stuff. That would save hundreds of lbs (and quite a bit of money too). It would also turn away tens of thousands of buyers. There is no way around safety regulations so you can't really save weight that way. You can skimp a bit on the rigidity if you plan on keeping it below 400 hp and coupe only, but that means no more V8. They could build the body out of aluminum and save weight, but now a V6 costs as much as an SS used to, and the design becomes much more limited since you can't form aluminum like steel.

I'm not sure where you're getting your 3600 lb CTS V8 from. As recently as yesterday, I heard that Alpha is crowding 4000 lbs, which presumably is a V8 Alpha+ (probably next gen CTS-V)
Yeah bud, I just read that too. The Camaro is just always stuck getting left overs and hand me downs, now the chassis they intended to use is being fattened up by Cadillac. If GM enters the ring with a 4000lbs pony car while Ford is intending to go lightweight this time, it will be over before it started. It starts with the Chassis, and the Alpha is (so I hear) a lightweight chassis but it won't be if Caddy keeps adding its own touches to it. This is something Ford seen coming if they were to share platforms with the Falcon. Since the Falcon is either gone and replaced by the Mustang down under (most likely) it leaves the Mustang completely free of the sedan market. The Falcon could come back in 2014 and share the Mustang's new chassis (also likely and even better) and would make a very lightweight sedan but a horrible 4 door... I don't know at this point, kinda pissed at Caddy to tell you the truth...

I would say that the 6th Gen Camaro adopts the Corvette's chassis so they could start with a very lightweight setup. They could easily reach 3200lbs with an Ecotec 2.0 and cost would still be mitigated because it still is technically global. I doubt anyone on Team Corvette would want to hear any of that though...
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:33 PM   #127
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honestly not to be rude it just sounds like a bunch of excuses and that gm has thrown in the towel and that we just have to accept how they build things......my response to expenses is get it done it is there job isnt it?


I'm going to say this so Scott doesn't have to, "I haven't seen you in any of the board meetings."
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:40 PM   #128
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Yeah bud, I just read that too. The Camaro is just always stuck getting left overs and hand me downs, now the chassis they intended to use is being fattened up by Cadillac. If GM enters the ring with a 4000lbs pony car while Ford is intending to go lightweight this time, it will be over before it started. It starts with the Chassis, and the Alpha is (so I hear) a lightweight chassis but it won't be if Caddy keeps adding its own touches to it. This is something Ford seen coming if they were to share platforms with the Falcon. Since the Falcon is either gone and replaced by the Mustang down under (most likely) it leaves the Mustang completely free of the sedan market. The Falcon could come back in 2014 and share the Mustang's new chassis (also likely and even better) and would make a very lightweight sedan but a horrible 4 door... I don't know at this point, kinda pissed at Caddy to tell you the truth...
Before we go all doom and gloom about something that may happen to the Camaro 5+ years from now, lets stop and remember that Chevy and GM both know that a 2 ton monster wont make it in the pony car market. If anything has been done with respect to the 6th gen its just been talk and ideas. Right now the only thing we, as the consumer, can do is drive the development of a "possible" Z28. I use "possible" since Number3 hates when we say Z28 like its a real thing.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:42 PM   #129
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I'm going to say this so Scott doesn't have to, "I haven't seen you in any of the board meetings."
lol i dont have to be im the consumer and the one buying their product ppl seem to forget that
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:01 PM   #130
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Before we go all doom and gloom about something that may happen to the Camaro 5+ years from now, lets stop and remember that Chevy and GM both know that a 2 ton monster wont make it in the pony car market. If anything has been done with respect to the 6th gen its just been talk and ideas. Right now the only thing we, as the consumer, can do is drive the development of a "possible" Z28. I use "possible" since Number3 hates when we say Z28 like its a real thing.
Well spoken, were on a roll here too. I think Number 3 will chime in here soon and critique our ideas so lets get our ideas up here so he can give us thumbs up/thumbs down and we can keep going/correct what ever needs to be.

We also need to form a Z committee and get organized, we, the body, should vote for one moderator as the head and from there he delegates task to the body. Everything from advertisement, promotions, drivetrain figures, transmission specs, R&D, Estimated MSRP and so on... Sounds like fun and I am bored...
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:12 PM   #131
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honestly id like a new head design, (my tranny), slimmer body chasis, engine output of about 520 hp and 460lbs of tq, mag suspen, keep the angle eyes, functional hood keeps engine bay temps low for higher rpm sustainment, above 8000 rpm redline, nothing bigger than a 4.8 liter, computer sensing momentum output of the car around corners to use optimum cornering for the engine, exhaust escaping on the sides behind the driver door but not to close,hmmmmmm and about 43,000 msrp.
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Old 05-17-2011, 06:04 PM   #132
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I

Edit: By the way, I have heard that the 6th Gen Camaro is going back to the swept look that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gens had. That rumor received a 50/50 response, I am still on the /
Yuck!!!!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 06:40 PM   #133
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Yuck!!!!!
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the 6th gen Camaro's design language will return to the sporty low slung looks of the 2nd through 4th gen F-body.......

........It's not going to look like a 4th gen. I'm not really a fan either. The point is that it'll go back to the swoopy styling and proportions that have marked the F-car for 3 generations.
Definitely not to be taken as fact but fun to read.
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Old 05-17-2011, 06:49 PM   #134
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Yuck!!!!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 07:01 PM   #135
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Notice Number 3's comments on decontenting the ZL1 to a Z28. The fewer changes the quicker the realities.
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Old 05-17-2011, 07:18 PM   #136
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Notice Number 3's comments on decontenting the ZL1 to a Z28. The fewer changes the quicker the realities.
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