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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-20-2011, 01:23 PM   #201
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I reduced the frame below the drivers door again, this is the farthest I can go (and the front splitter now matches the side splitter). I'm not sure how crazy GM is about reducing the steel in that area because of side impact but it really makes the car look slim. The top pic is of our Z28, the bottom pic is of the 2006 concept Camaro. The red circles highlight the areas that you can really see the difference. The final reduction might be too much but it is not problem to put that extra inch back on... there is about 5 inches taken out of the side. The third pic of the Z28 is before the additional inch or two was taken out out the sides. The 3rd pic has also been shortened...
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:32 PM   #202
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looks more streamline.....i likes it
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Old 05-20-2011, 02:06 PM   #203
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I think that the LS376 from GM performance is the perfect engine for the Z28. The LS376 produces 480 horsepower and 475 pound feet of torque at 4500 RPM. The questions are... is it street legal and what transmission do we use? I think if we offer GM performance parts on the car and give SS owners the opportunity to make gradual upgrades at their own pace, the Z28 could also make a great poster car for GMP. The SSX was suppose to start the ball rolling but I haven't even seen the ball yet. First, we offer the LS376 that is available from GMPP, then you can advertise the cam and all the other upgradable parts via the Z28. If GM can get 480hp/475tq from a cammed LS3, what would happen with an intake? Just think, if every SS owner at least upgraded the cam and intake how much extra that would be. The intake would sell way more than a cam would... Something tells me that the LS376 isn't street legal...
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:11 PM   #204
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I reduced the frame below the drivers door again, this is the farthest I can go (and the front splitter now matches the side splitter). I'm not sure how crazy GM is about reducing the steel in that area because of side impact but it really makes the car look slim. The top pic is of our Z28, the bottom pic is of the 2006 concept Camaro. The red circles highlight the areas that you can really see the difference. The final reduction might be too much but it is not problem to put that extra inch back on... there is about 5 inches taken out of the side. The third pic of the Z28 is before the additional inch or two was taken out out the sides. The 3rd pic has also been shortened...
ride hight is way to high
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:37 PM   #205
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I think that the LS376 from GM performance is the perfect engine for the Z28. The LS376 produces 480 horsepower and 475 pound feet of torque at 4500 RPM. The questions are... is it street legal and what transmission do we use? I think if we offer GM performance parts on the car and give SS owners the opportunity to make gradual upgrades at their own pace, the Z28 could also make a great poster car for GMP. The SSX was suppose to start the ball rolling but I haven't even seen the ball yet. First, we offer the LS376 that is available from GMPP, then you can advertise the cam and all the other upgradable parts via the Z28. If GM can get 480hp/475tq from a cammed LS3, what would happen with an intake? Just think, if every SS owner at least upgraded the cam and intake how much extra that would be. The intake would sell way more than a cam would... Something tells me that the LS376 isn't street legal...
Its just a LS3 with a GM CAM and prob a little better tune
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Old 05-20-2011, 04:17 PM   #206
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Its just a LS3 with a GM CAM and prob a little better tune
I don't think it will pass state inspections. :(
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:53 PM   #207
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Pill, it's looking pretty good. My thoughts are there is too much curvature in the front splitter/air dam.

Now the real question is what do you think a "freshening" is? You've changed every exterior panel but you really haven't changed the basic character of the car. I realize you are a bit stuck with photoshop but if freshen means the same as the Ford Fusion redo last year that is lamps and fascia. But if you mean new doors and body panels then would you go further?
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:32 AM   #208
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ride hight is way to high
I see that now on "Camaro32a", the picture below it "Camaro31" was two copies before 32a. We will roll the concept back to Camaro31 because I totally agree that the ride height appears too high.
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:37 AM   #209
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I don't think it will pass state inspections.
Then maybe our LS3R needs a milder cam and a high rise intake? I would still love to have LS9 heads on an LS3, optimized for higher compression/naturally aspirated to push the engine well into mid 7000 rpm limit. Or maybe try the prototype DI L92 heads, the airflow wouldn't be as superior as the LS3's but that L92 achieved well over 450hp...
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:49 AM   #210
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Pill, it's looking pretty good. My thoughts are there is too much curvature in the front splitter/air dam.

Now the real question is what do you think a "freshening" is? You've changed every exterior panel but you really haven't changed the basic character of the car. I realize you are a bit stuck with photoshop but if freshen means the same as the Ford Fusion redo last year that is lamps and fascia. But if you mean new doors and body panels then would you go further?
I will see if I can straighten the splitter out later on tonight, Blizz brought it to my attention as well. Freshing has come to be known as updating the look and has also come to be a canned fascia and headlight/taillight revision. It doesn't necessarily have to be about looks all the time. The major concern when I photoshopped this Camaro was to pay special attention to not destroy the original look of the 5th Gen. As the intentions of mid model refreshes have become primarily concerned with form, our mid model refresh has made function priority. Although there are some differences in form, reducing weight, reducing the physical size, improving aerodynamics and utilizing body panels to channel airflow where we can use it has taken the main stage while at the same time, updating the look of the 5th Gen and all the while staying true... As you said, I am severely limited while photoshopping but it still turned out to be a pretty cool looking product...

Thanks for the feedback, we will do some experimenting tonight if we have time...
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:31 AM   #211
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The Ls 376/480 would be the one to go with IMO. My state (FL) doesn't have state inspections, so can I have it as an option.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:54 AM   #212
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An update is usually front and rear changes. They are much less expensive but can really affect the looks substantially.
But this is a fun exercise.
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:09 AM   #213
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An update is usually front and rear changes. They are much less expensive but can really affect the looks substantially.
But this is a fun exercise.


I don't see any major changes happening, but that is one sharp looking car.

I want a VR with white stripes, when can I order?
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:48 AM   #214
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A couple of things that I just thought about regarding a refresh:

With the Camaro's design as loved as it is, I can't help but think that the best case scenario would be that people like the refresh just as much as the current design and at worst it turns out like the 2010 Mustang.

Also, in a couple of years there will be the next gen V8's which would probably do more to help the car than tweaking the styling.
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Old 05-21-2011, 01:35 PM   #215
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An update is usually front and rear changes. They are much less expensive but can really affect the looks substantially.
But this is a fun exercise.
I agree. You have to look at the past: 2nd gen camaro produced from 1970 to 1981. 3rd gen camaro produced from 1982 to 1992. 4thgen produced from 1993 to 2002. My prediction on the 6thgen: 2018 (Or so.) Til then, the camaro will get the usual refresh every 4 years or so, with very subtle changes every year. (Colors, options, etc.) My guess is that any sort of re-design for the 5thgen would include the front and rear bumper covers, interior, hood, front fenders, front and rear lights, rear spoiler, wheels and various ground-effects pieces. Things like the rear quarters, door skins, roof skin, windows, and A-pillars will not be touched, as they are very expensive to re-design.

the Pill; I like your renderings (Especially the bowtie delete, mail slot delete and placement of the front and side "Z-28" badge.) I would like to see some "Fiske" style crosslace wheels used on the car, though.
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Old 05-21-2011, 03:04 PM   #216
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A couple of things that I just thought about regarding a refresh:

With the Camaro's design as loved as it is, I can't help but think that the best case scenario would be that people like it just as much as the current design and at worst it turns out like the 2010 Mustang.

Also, in a couple of years there will be the next gen V8's which would probably do more to help the car than tweaking the styling.
The Gen V engine might not see a Camaro engine bay for another 5 years, maybe more. In my opinion, styling will always attract more buyers than a new high performance offering. I think the Ecotec 2.0 will outsell the Gen V engines on a 10 to 1 ratio in the Camaro alone, that is the engine the regular car buyer is looking for.

In my concept, I wanted to maintain the 5th Gen Camaro's looks but wanted to advance the styling somewhat. Headlights and taillights are the easiest way to alter any cars looks but I wanted more than just an update, I wanted more function while pushing the current Camaro's personality into a more modern approach. I wanted the owners of this concept car to look at the original 5th Gen Camaro the same way that perhaps a 1998+ 4th Gen owner looks at the 1993-1997's. The original now seems more mature, classy (and classic) and will always be remembered. The refresh needs to grab the attention of the consumers that the original fail to get. The question out of everyone's mouth should be "Why didn't they do that the first time?". I know Camaro guys do not like the 2010+ Mustang, but the Mustang people absolutely loved it and that was what I thought when I seen them in 2009. The new model made the older car look out of date but, it didn't abandon the primary principle that made the car great in the first place. No matter how much people fall in love with a car, it always ends up the same way when interest and sales are concerned, the car will lose momentum... and that is when the refresh comes in. Everyone thought in 2005 that the Mustang's design would have lasted for 10 years because it was a head turner back then and it sold insane amounts of cars but, it eventually needed refreshed because everyone had a 2005-2009 Mustang. Now, everyone who wanted a Camaro has one or, those who didn't commit just need a little push...

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Old 05-21-2011, 03:27 PM   #217
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I agree. You have to look at the past: 2nd gen camaro produced from 1970 to 1981. 3rd gen camaro produced from 1982 to 1992. 4thgen produced from 1993 to 2002. My prediction on the 6thgen: 2018 (Or so.) Til then, the camaro will get the usual refresh every 4 years or so, with very subtle changes every year. (Colors, options, etc.) My guess is that any sort of re-design for the 5thgen would include the front and rear bumper covers, interior, hood, front fenders, front and rear lights, rear spoiler, wheels and various ground-effects pieces. Things like the rear quarters, door skins, roof skin, windows, and A-pillars will not be touched, as they are very expensive to re-design.

the Pill; I like your renderings (Especially the bowtie delete, mail slot delete and placement of the front and side "Z-28" badge.) I would like to see some "Fiske" style crosslace wheels used on the car, though.
Thanks man, I'm glad you like it. I have a lot of suggestions for the Z28 and I will see if I have time to work them all in. The wheels however, are usually the last place we focus on because wheels to men are like shoes to women. I agree with you on the refresh not usually redesigning the roof, windows (because of the safety cage) and A-pillars but, the rear quarters and door skins do receive makeovers sometimes. The 2010 Mustang's rear quarters were redesigned slightly to accommodate the new rear tail light work. It is very possible for GM to make the overhang shorter as shown in my concept but like you said, it will take a little more money.
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:03 PM   #218
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The Gen V engine might not see a Camaro engine bay for another 5 years, maybe more. In my opinion, styling will always attract more buyers than a new high performance offering. I think the Ecotec 2.0 will outsell the Gen V engines on a 10 to 1 ratio in the Camaro alone, that is the engine the regular car buyer is looking for.

In my concept, I wanted to maintain the 5th Gen Camaro's looks but wanted to advance the styling somewhat. Headlights and taillights are the easiest way to alter any cars looks but I wanted more than just an update, I wanted more function while pushing the current Camaro's personality into a more modern approach. I wanted the owners of this concept car to look at the original 5th Gen Camaro the same way that perhaps a 1998+ 4th Gen owner looks at the 1993-1997's. The original now seems more mature, classy (and classic) and will always be remembered. The refresh needs to grab the attention of the consumers that the original fail to get. The question out of everyone's mouth should be "Why didn't they do that the first time?". I know Camaro guys do not like the 2010+ Mustang, but the Mustang people absolutely loved it and that was I thought when I seen them in 2009. The new model made the older car look out of date but, it didn't abandon the primary principle that made the car great in the first place. No matter how much people fall in love with a car, it always ends up the same way when interest and sales are concerned, the car will lose momentum... and that is when the refresh comes in. Everyone thought in 2005 that the Mustang's design would have lasted for 10 years because it was a head turner back then and it sold insane amounts of cars but, it eventually needed refreshed because everyone had a 2005-2009 Mustang. Now, everyone who wanted a Camaro has one or, those who didn't commit just need a little push...
Sorry, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that any "improvements" are needed. I have a 1969 Z/28 but the 2010 BLOWS it away...just my $02. By the way, I don't like your suggested revisions. Just my humble opinion. Don't want it to end up like the redesigned mustang rear
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:48 PM   #219
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The Gen V engine might not see a Camaro engine bay for another 5 years, maybe more. In my opinion, styling will always attract more buyers than a new high performance offering. I think the Ecotec 2.0 will outsell the Gen V engines on a 10 to 1 ratio in the Camaro alone, that is the engine the regular car buyer is looking for.

In my concept, I wanted to maintain the 5th Gen Camaro's looks but wanted to advance the styling somewhat. Headlights and taillights are the easiest way to alter any cars looks but I wanted more than just an update, I wanted more function while pushing the current Camaro's personality into a more modern approach. I wanted the owners of this concept car to look at the original 5th Gen Camaro the same way that perhaps a 1998+ 4th Gen owner looks at the 1993-1997's. The original now seems more mature, classy (and classic) and will always be remembered. The refresh needs to grab the attention of the consumers that the original fail to get. The question out of everyone's mouth should be "Why didn't they do that the first time?". I know Camaro guys do not like the 2010+ Mustang, but the Mustang people absolutely loved it and that was I thought when I seen them in 2009. The new model made the older car look out of date but, it didn't abandon the primary principle that made the car great in the first place. No matter how much people fall in love with a car, it always ends up the same way when interest and sales are concerned, the car will lose momentum... and that is when the refresh comes in. Everyone thought in 2005 that the Mustang's design would have lasted for 10 years because it was a head turner back then and it sold insane amounts of cars but, it eventually needed refreshed because everyone had a 2005-2009 Mustang. Now, everyone who wanted a Camaro has one or, those who didn't commit just need a little push...
They were first expected 2012ish, and I haven't heard too much about them getting delayed, though given whats happened over the last few years I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, if they started right now it might take 5 years to get to the Camaro. But work had begone well before bankruptcy. So while I don't think they'll be ready next year, I don't think they're going to be more than 2 years out either. Thats the 2014 MY.

I don't buy your ecotec argument either (not even sure where it came from). If V6's are having a hard time reaching a 2:1 advantage over V8's (for the 2010 MY I think V8's outsold the 6's) I can't see how there would be a massive adoption of 4 bangers. Even with gas prices going up, people are still buying thousands of V8 Camaros each month. And anyone who knows Camaros knows about the Iron Duke (aka Iron Puke) and simply don't want a 4 banger Camaro. Besides, with a V6 that makes over 300 hp and gets 30 mpg on the highway, there isn't going to be much room for improvement with an I4 unless the Camaro manages to lose 500 lbs (not gunna happen). They could turbocharge it, but if they do the engine won't be a whole lot better than a V6. Plus, engineering a car to accept 3 different engine types (I4, V6, V8) adds cost, complexity, and weight. So unless they abandon V8's in Camaros (again ... not gunna happen) I don't see them being viable. Optimize the 3.6 for fuel economy, rather than balancing fuel economy and performance and you could probably match a 4 banger for fuel economy.
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Old 05-22-2011, 03:55 AM   #220
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They were first expected 2012ish, and I haven't heard too much about them getting delayed, though given whats happened over the last few years I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, if they started right now it might take 5 years to get to the Camaro. But work had begone well before bankruptcy. So while I don't think they'll be ready next year, I don't think they're going to be more than 2 years out either. Thats the 2014 MY.

I don't buy your ecotec argument either (not even sure where it came from). If V6's are having a hard time reaching a 2:1 advantage over V8's (for the 2010 MY I think V8's outsold the 6's) I can't see how there would be a massive adoption of 4 bangers. Even with gas prices going up, people are still buying thousands of V8 Camaros each month. And anyone who knows Camaros knows about the Iron Duke (aka Iron Puke) and simply don't want a 4 banger Camaro. Besides, with a V6 that makes over 300 hp and gets 30 mpg on the highway, there isn't going to be much room for improvement with an I4 unless the Camaro manages to lose 500 lbs (not gunna happen). They could turbocharge it, but if they do the engine won't be a whole lot better than a V6. Plus, engineering a car to accept 3 different engine types (I4, V6, V8) adds cost, complexity, and weight. So unless they abandon V8's in Camaros (again ... not gunna happen) I don't see them being viable. Optimize the 3.6 for fuel economy, rather than balancing fuel economy and performance and you could probably match a 4 banger for fuel economy.
It all depends on what Ford does with the Mustang and as far as J Mays says, Ecoboost engines will be in the Mustang. This most likely is on all trims and a turbo 4 is the most likely. The GM Ecotec 2.0 is not Iron Duke, this engine is producing 275hp easy and with a little bit of tweaking, should manage fuel economy well into the 30+mpg. GM just spent 100 million in the GM Components Holdings Rochester Operations facility in Rochester, NY to produce the Gen V engine at the end of April so it will be awhile before any engines begin rolling off the line. As the standards become more and more strict, the Ecotec 2.0 is the only option really... Its pretty much out of GMs hands. Once a 35+mpg option is added (Ford's Ecoboost 2.0 achieves over 35mpg in some applications) then it will make up a majority of sales. The V8's sell very well now because the fuel economy spread really isn't that far off from each other but if you compare a 25mpg, $36k MSRP sports coupe with a 35+mpg, $24k MSRP it starts to look more attractive. I can only hope that the Ecotec Camaro only weighs between 3300-3400lbs because that is what Ford intends the SVO to weigh.... The after market will go nuts once turbo 4's make it into these cars again.

Edit: 10 to 1 is exaggerated if you assume that the car will only be offered in the US, it is a well known fact that the Mustang is going global (Camaro should follow) and if the 6th Gen moves 150k+ models the first year, I would expect 100k of those to be Eco 4s because Europeans do not eagerly buy V8s. Offering another engine will cannibalize the V6 and V8's production and sales, but those sales will be new customers that were never interested in the US sports coupe market. Ford has identified this and is going into the market first, the initial sales of a Ecoboost pony car will be huge and ensure the brand survives another 10 years. By then, the aftermarket for these engines will be just as large as the 5.0's because of cars like the Focus and Fiesta receiving engines like this... Ford would be stupid not to capitalize and GM would be even more stupid not to follow...

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Old 05-22-2011, 04:03 AM   #221
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Sorry, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that any "improvements" are needed. I have a 1969 Z/28 but the 2010 BLOWS it away...just my $02. By the way, I don't like your suggested revisions. Just my humble opinion. Don't want it to end up like the redesigned mustang rear
Of course you don't, it will be hard to convince enthusiast that the new Camaro's are better than the originals, just as it has always been. Saying you don't like the concept, that looks almost identical to the original, has me thinking that you do not like the original that much. There are only very small functional differences between the two but other than that, they are the same. As for the redesigned Mustang, you will not find anyone on a Camaro website that likes the new Mustang, especially after the 5.0 came out. Looks are about the only thing Camaro enthusiast can attack the Mustang for. However, if you go to an S197 website, it will be the exact opposite. The Mustang community is much more vast than the Camaro5 community, and a large majority of that community love the Mustang (including the functional rear end). There are some who don't like it, those people are usually the owners of the original 2005-2009 Mustang that don't want to admit there is something better (same will happen to the Mustang III).... and that brings me back to my first point... the next Camaro they build will be better, whether we like it or not....

Edit: It would also be more helpful to explain what you don't like about the concept instead of just not liking it and being done...

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Old 05-22-2011, 04:16 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Of course you don't, it will be hard to convince that the new Camaro's are better than the originals, just as it has always been. Saying you don't like the concept, that looks almost identical to the original, has me thinking that you do not like the original that much. As for the redesigned Mustang, you will not find anyone on a Camaro website that likes the new Mustang, especially after the 5.0 came out. Looks are about the only thing Camaro enthusiast can attack the Mustang for. However, if you go to an S197 website, it will be the exact opposite. The Mustang community is much more vast than the Camaro5 community, and a large majority of that community love the Mustang (including the functional rear end). There are some who don't like it, those people are usually the owners of the original 2005-2009 Mustang that don't want to admit there is something better (same will happen to the Mustang III).... and that brings me back to my first point... the next Camaro they build will be better....
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Each to their own opinion and YOU wont change non of it!

Anyway, MY opinion is that the STANG GT gets raped by my V6 all the f***ing time! lol

Anyhow, i have nothing against the Stangs full stop.
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Old 05-22-2011, 05:48 AM   #223
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Each to their own opinion and YOU wont change non of it!
I'm not really interested in changing peoples minds, the ones who purchased a 5th Gen have already committed and GM already has their money. It's the people that are still in limbo that GM is mostly concerned about, the countless consumers that will most likely buy into the new Mustang. This makes a 5th Gen refresh even more important, to attempt to eat into the Mustang's market share. With an Ecoboost offering, the 4 cylinder sales will probably be new customers. The Camaro needs to remain fresh and by 2014, the 5th Gen will be pretty tired... and won't put up much of a sales fight while the base GT will be pushing Boss numbers for about $10k less... The Boss is the Mustang III's domestic benchmark while I'm sure Ford will bring in cars like the M3, R8 and the GTR just to see where they stand (like the 2010 GT and 2011 5.0 was benchmarked). GM will hold a mid generation refresh pretty close to the chest, it is just one of the major cards for them to play.

Last edited by thePill; 05-22-2011 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 05-22-2011, 08:54 AM   #224
Gramps69Z
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Pill,
FYI, the Boss that was at my local Ford dealer sold for $5,000 over sticker. It's going from Florida to Virgina.
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Old 05-22-2011, 09:38 AM   #225
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Pill,
FYI, the Boss that was at my local Ford dealer sold for $5,000 over sticker. It's going from Florida to Virgina.
People shopping out of state for the Boss is pretty common but Florida is a pretty good distance from Virginia. The pickings are really slim now... I'm still inquiring on whether Ford will do a Job #2 this summer or not. I have also heard the there were more than 4000 Boss 302s produced but I haven't confirmed that. I did the figures once based on the official press release and the share of the nation release but can't remember how many Boss's it came to. The 4000 number didn't come from Ford but if every dealer was guaranteed at least one then that would be almost 4k. Ford will never publicly release production numbers until after the model year or all Boss's have been sold. It would defeat the whole SoN concept which was intended to reduce dealer markup. The guys who compete with the Boss 302s are very successful and are recieving a lot of positive feedback... They dominate their classes. The Z28 should be special order ONLY with only a select amount of dealerships receiving floor models. Orders for the Z28 should start at the beginning of the model year (June-July) and start production early Janruary so all buyers can take delivery at the end of March for the season...
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