Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
ModBargains
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Suspension / Brakes / Chassis

Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-24-2011, 03:47 PM   #1
Inuyashas_Brother
 
Inuyashas_Brother's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 Camaro LS - M6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 545
Question Do I really need sway bars?

A bit of background: I have installed new high performance tires and Im planning on getting lowered springs. I enjoy spirited driving but do not plan on autocrossing. I have been trying to educate myself on the issue of understeer and how sway bars work, and from what I found it seems that understeer is only a problem if you push your car past 7/10s which is going beyond spirited driving into autocrossing levels.

Therefore, for my driving style, it seems lowering springs, in addition to the grip from my new high performance tires, are enough to provide me the additional handling benefits, and a sway bar would add little to no benefit.

Is my analysis correct or did I miss something?

Thanks!
__________________
Inuyashas_Brother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2011, 03:58 PM   #2
blazzin1


 
blazzin1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS R6P
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Seffner, FL
Posts: 4,295
So....do you really need any modifications?.....No, not really! But that's what we enjoy doing anyway. You will probably see a noticeable difference in handling (even on the street) with stiffer sway bars. Is it a necessity for street driving?.....No! Is it an enjoyable addition?.....Yes!
__________________
ARH 1-7/8" LT Headers w/HF Cats, Stainless Works 3" Retro-Chambered Cat Back, New Era OTR CAI, AAM 3.91 R&P, Eaton TrueTrac Posi,
JRE Billet Caps, LPW Diff Cover, BMR Drag Race Suspension Package (DRP007), BMR Toe Rods (TR004), BMR Xtreme Drag Bar (XSB004),
BMR Sway Bar End Links (ELK004), BMR Driveshaft Safety Loop (DSL014), Farks No-Hop UCA Bushings, Pfadt Solid Subframe Bushings,
QA1 DA Front Coilovers, Strange Engineering DA Rear Coilovers, Mike Norris Catch-Can, V-Max CNC PTB, Aeromotive Fuel Rails.
blazzin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2011, 03:59 PM   #3
S-eatin-grin

 
S-eatin-grin's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 2SS/RS AGM
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: WV
Posts: 1,077
No...I think you are right on the money with your analysis. Given your power level (and I'm not V-6 bashing) the stock suspension will handle it...the wheels and springs should suffice....if you wanted to do something else I'd say rear cradle bushing inserts and front radius bushing inserts...pretty simple install...pretty low cost as well.
S-eatin-grin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2011, 04:00 PM   #4
Neriah

 
Neriah's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazzin1 View Post
So....do you really need any modifications?.....No, not really! But that's what we enjoy doing anyway. You will probably see a noticeable difference in handling (even on the street) with stiffer sway bars. Is it a necessity for street driving?.....No! Is it an enjoyable addition?.....Yes!
__________________
Built By Blu808
LG G6X3 Cam, UD Pully, Rotofab Intake.
Dynatech LT's. Borla ATAK Catback.
Full BMR bushings and suspension.
Neriah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2011, 04:02 PM   #5
JEP
 
JEP's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SIM Camaro 2SS 6speed
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Alabama
Posts: 78
That is a good question. I'm pondering the same thing.
After doing about 2 weeks of research/reading forums on this topic and calling a few vendors I'm coming to the conclusion that it's hard for me to explain to them exactly what kind of ride I'm looking for.
I want to reduce body roll (sways/harder springs), but don't want to overdo it.

In my opinion, from what you've posted, you have the right idea to start little by little.
Try the drop springs with your tires and see if it's enough.

I'm probably going to do springs and sways (front and back adjustable) and dial in the stiffness to my liking.
Lowering with springs will help, but in my case, I came from a Corvette C6 which was tightly suspended, and the Camaro is just too sloppy for me so I'm doing both.

Let us know how it turns out, and I will also report back in a few weeks once I get this stuff installed:
drop springs (Pfadt)
adjustable sways (not decided, I want adjustable and Pfadt only rear is adj)
sway bar end links (whichever sways I go with)
rear control arm mounting brace (BMR)

hope this helps, and good luck
JEP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2011, 04:30 PM   #6
Inuyashas_Brother
 
Inuyashas_Brother's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 Camaro LS - M6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 545
Thank you all for your input!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JEP View Post
I came from a Corvette C6 which was tightly suspended, and the Camaro is just too sloppy for me so I'm doing both.
Funny thing is my last car was a Celica GTS and even I find the Camaro's suspension spongy
__________________
Inuyashas_Brother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 12:50 PM   #7
RichJ.
Shop Owner
 
Drives: 1 ton silverado
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Medina Oh
Posts: 154
Foundation Foundation Foundation we feel the first step should be Rear sub fram inserts from Pedders. It will help the rear step out more than any other mod.
RichJ. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 01:01 PM   #8
JusticePete
CamaroCross Founder
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,705
Rich is 100% correct. Start your 5th Gen mods with the foundational elements.

Sub-frame bushes or inserts
Radius Bushes or inserts

These are the components that make EVERYTHING else on your ZETA II 5th gen work better. Control the rear sub-frame to is how you control rear end step out -- the looseness you feel in the rear of your 5th Gen. Reducing unwanted castor changes with radius bushes or inserts improves your steering wheel feel. It becomes more precise or on center. Adding lowering coils, more RWHP or stickier tires or whatever only makes matter worse until you address the foundation.

Star with the foundation. A large number of 5th gen owners have found it is all they need to do. We'll others become addicted and suspension fever sets in
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:10 PM   #9
PfadtRacing
 
PfadtRacing's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuyashas_Brother View Post

Therefore, for my driving style, it seems lowering springs, in addition to the grip from my new high performance tires, are enough to provide me the additional handling benefits, and a sway bar would add little to no benefit.

Is my analysis correct or did I miss something?

Thanks!
If I had one modification to do to a Camaro5, it would undoubtedly be a set of sway bars. Sway bars have an effect when ever there is a rolling moment on the vehicle, not only when the car is being driven aggressively. You will find more confidence in corners even before the tires start breaking away because the car wont roll and wallow into corners as much.

As you increase the amount of mechanical grip you have by installing stickier tires, your car will actually exhibit more body roll than it already does since your limits are now higher. Aftermarket sway bars don't have a huge effect on ride quality but make the car feel much tighter and in control than the stock bars. You don't need to be pushing the car past reasonable street limits to notice a big difference in sway bar packages.

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask. We feel that sways make these cars feel so much more confident without compromises in ride quality that they're a must do for our personal cars.

--
Jarrett
PfadtRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:20 PM   #10
Synner


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: May 2011
Location: overseas
Posts: 3,549
I think the stock sways are more of a limiting factor than the stock tires. I definitely feel body roll way before I think my tires are going to give loose. And grippier tires and springs won't fix understeer although the springs will help with weight transfer.
Synner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 05:14 PM   #11
JusticePete
CamaroCross Founder
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,705
If you set a fence post in Jello does it make any difference if the fence post is made of pot metal or titanium? It doesn't. No matter what the fence post material they will shake like Santa's belly.

The same is true on your 5th Gens. Every 5th Gen has rear end step out and significant dynamic caster changes the moment it rolls off the assembly line.

Add bigger bars -- rear end step out becomes more pronounced.
Add stickier tires -- rear end step out becomes more pronounced.
Add more RWHP -- rear end step out becomes more pronounced.

Notice the pattern? While the IRS sub-frame bushes are far from Jello, they are deeply voided for control of Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). It was a benchmark for the new 5th Gen -- Library Quite. Quiet is perceived as quality. The efforts to makes the 5th Gen as quiet as the target resulted in some loss in handling qualities. No matter what you driving style, no matter what your level of modification the lowest hanging fruit on a 5th Gen is found in the sub-frame and radius bushes.

Virtually every 5th Gen suspension company makes replacement bushes, braces or bars for the IRS. Why? Because they know as we do it is the single most important upgrade you can make to a 5th Gen. If you already have sway installed, you will notice your 5th Gen drive much better with sub-frame bushes or inserts installed. Have a better than OE tire and wheel package -- you will notice your 5th Gen drive much better with sub-frame bushes or inserts installed. Increased your RWHP -- you will notice your 5th Gen drive much better with sub-frame bushes or inserts installed.

Start with the sub-frame and radius bushes. Create a robust foundation. All your additional mods will work better because you did it the right way. You started with the foundation. You can read all about it in the Book on 5th Gen Suspension.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 05:24 PM   #12
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazzin1 View Post
So....do you really need any modifications?.....No, not really! But that's what we enjoy doing anyway. You will probably see a noticeable difference in handling (even on the street) with stiffer sway bars. Is it a necessity for street driving?.....No! Is it an enjoyable addition?.....Yes!
Do you need them? No. Will you realize a significant improvement in handling on the street? Yes.
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:00 PM   #13
PfadtRacing
 
PfadtRacing's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuyashas_Brother View Post
I have been trying to educate myself on the issue of understeer and how sway bars work, and from what I found it seems that understeer is only a problem if you push your car past 7/10s which is going beyond spirited driving into autocrossing levels.
Inuyashas_Brother, take a look at a video we did a while ago, in regards to your exact quest for knowledge! This video was a procedure we went through to dial in the correct sway bar rates for the Camaro chassis. As you can see, sway bars are what will control the understeer/oversteer balance most effectively. This video is pretty straight forward to illustrate the example you are looking for, it is a simple 200ft skidpad,and involves steady-state cornering where no transitional forces are acting on the car. Its a pretty cool test to see how to change balance towards something more performance oreinted! Check it out

PfadtRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:08 PM   #14
JusticePete
CamaroCross Founder
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuyashas_Brother View Post
A bit of background: I have installed new high performance tires and Im planning on getting lowered springs. I enjoy spirited driving but do not plan on autocrossing. I have been trying to educate myself on the issue of understeer and how sway bars work, and from what I found it seems that understeer is only a problem if you push your car past 7/10s which is going beyond spirited driving into autocrossing levels.

Therefore, for my driving style, it seems lowering springs, in addition to the grip from my new high performance tires, are enough to provide me the additional handling benefits, and a sway bar would add little to no benefit.

Is my analysis correct or did I miss something?

Thanks!
Maybe I misunderstood your post. Can I ask a few questions to gain clarity?

What is it you are not satisfied with as far as the handling of your Camaro?
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:13 PM   #15
lightner75
President LoneStarCamaro
 
Drives: 2010 cyber gray 2ss
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: dfw
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
Inuyashas_Brother, take a look at a video we did a while ago, in regards to your exact quest for knowledge! This video was a procedure we went through to dial in the correct sway bar rates for the Camaro chassis. As you can see, sway bars are what will control the understeer/oversteer balance most effectively. This video is pretty straight forward to illustrate the example you are looking for, it is a simple 200ft skidpad,and involves steady-state cornering where no transitional forces are acting on the car. Its a pretty cool test to see how to change balance towards something more performance oreinted! Check it out


so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?
__________________
lightner75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:22 PM   #16
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightner75 View Post
so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?
It is one of those better/best situations. The rear bar upgrade will be an improvement over stock and is probably all you need for a basic bolt on car that isn't going to be taken to the track. For a more extensively modified car that might or definitely will see some track use then the set is the way to go. That being said, 95+% of our sway bar orders are for the front and rear set.
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:42 PM   #17
JusticePete
CamaroCross Founder
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightner75 View Post
so my ? is if your going to change sways then you should change both front and rear and not waste your time with just doing the rear balance bar?
It depends on what you are trying to change. Which brings us to the question, what are your goals for your Camaro?
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 06:45 PM   #18
PfadtRacing
 
PfadtRacing's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex Chase View Post
It is one of those better/best situations. The rear bar upgrade will be an improvement over stock and is probably all you need for a basic bolt on car that isn't going to be taken to the track. For a more extensively modified car that might or definitely will see some track use then the set is the way to go. That being said, 95+% of our sway bar orders are for the front and rear set.
This is spot on, and let me show an illustration to maybe paint a clearer picture. Take a look at hte charts below. What is going to affect the understeer/oversteer is the roll rate from front to rear.

With the balance bar, it has a rate that is engineered into it to match the OEM front bar, and provide the optimized balance that removes the inherent understeer.

With the sport bars, you get that very same balance ratio front to rear, but you get more roll reduction OVERALL. So with the sport bars, the car as a whole has much less sway in it, AND it has the optimized balance, and it has adjustable balance with the rear adjustable bar.

Let me know if this helps:


PfadtRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 07:02 PM   #19
lightner75
President LoneStarCamaro
 
Drives: 2010 cyber gray 2ss
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: dfw
Posts: 528
yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..
__________________
lightner75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 11:33 PM   #20
Jay_LHD3

 
Jay_LHD3's Avatar
 
Drives: CGM 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 1,997
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightner75 View Post
yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..
I'm doing the same thing. I plan on picking up a rear balance bar later this year. I thought about doing the set, but then you have to do end links before your front factory end links get kinked up and... ...this stuff gets expensive quick!!

Currently I have springs only and love the difference they make.

__________________
Jay_LHD3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 06:41 AM   #21
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightner75 View Post
yes that helps alot..Thanks for the chart...For my driving style and conditions the rear balance bar is exactly what i want....

i'm saving my pennies in between fill ups and will contact you apex chase when i'm ready to pull the plug on this..

thanks for the replys and help..
No problem. I look forward to hearing from you.
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 01:34 PM   #22
toilets

 
Drives: 2010 camaro
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Southeast,
Posts: 842
Now what in the blazes is Sub frame inserts and radius inserts?? Sorry for my stupidity but I thought I had everything I need (sways, endlinks, differential and rear cradle bushings, springs).. I do my first road course in July so are you saying to help my corner speed and handling even furhter, these sub frame bushes and radius inserts are a must?
toilets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 02:27 PM   #23
2quick

 
Drives: none
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the front
Posts: 1,151
not an must be they really will help.
2quick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 02:45 PM   #24
kook
 
kook's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Yellow
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 543
The Pedders XA + package. Second to none.
__________________
Edelbrock E-Force
Stainless Works Lts
Roto Fab CAI
Magnaflow Street Cat-Back
DOD Delete
Forgestar F-14's and Pedders XA + PKG
Custom grind cam from Cincy Speed
ADM dual fuel pump
ADM AF/Boost gauges
FTI 3200 convertor
Hurst shifter
Cincy Speed Build and Tune 540rwhp
kook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2011, 03:15 PM   #25
BMR guy


 
BMR guy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,097
Everybody above seems to be going back and forth on what is most important to do first. For optimal results, BMR recommends that you mod in this order:

1: Cradle (subframe) Insert bushings - every component in your rear drivetrain and suspension mounts to the rear cradle yet the cradle is mounted to the body with high deflection rubber bushings. Reducing this movement with cradle bushing inserts will allow the suspension to do its job more efficiently.


2: Sway bars - Despite what some believe, there is no other single suspension mod that will give you as much seat-of-the-pants improvement then a good set of sway bars. If there is any doubt just create a thread titled "Do bigger sway bars make a difference?" and see what you get. BMR sway bars are fully adjustable front and rear and do not compromise ride quality in any way. Our base rates designed into the sway bars were specifically calculated to neutralize understeer in this platform and the user has 3 rate choices to choose from. This is simply a no-brainer mod for this 3800 pound car.



3: Lowering springs - Unless you are only after cosmetic mods, we recommend lowering springs as the third mod, after the base is set and the body roll is neutralized. The lower center of gravity combined with slightly stiffer spring rates really compliments a set of sway bars.


There are other products in addition that can be recommended beyond these mods however, based on your goals, these would be our recommendations...
BMR guy is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5th Gen Suspension -- The Book JusticePete Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 148 09-04-2013 03:28 PM
Better Handling Tbanks Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 30 12-15-2010 12:50 PM
Hotchkis: Tuned Suspension Setups | Springs | Chassis Brace | Sway Bars | FREE S&H AJ@ECSMotorsports Suspension / Chassis / Brakes 80 11-17-2010 03:28 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.