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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 06-08-2011, 09:06 PM   #276
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Are you lIstening GM???
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:44 PM   #277
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Are you lIstening GM???
They always are...that I can promise you.

But few people on the internet put their money where their fingers are. They're very aware of this, too...
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:15 PM   #278
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They always are...that I can promise you.

But few people on the internet put their money where their fingers are. They're very aware of this, too...
We'll find this out when the ZL1 hits the streets.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:19 PM   #279
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Are you lIstening GM???
Yes, and as I've said, I have conversations over coffee that go well into this topic.......................just for fun..................with other GM engineers that own Gen 1 Z28s......................over coffee.....................that is all.

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They always are...that I can promise you.

But few people on the internet put their money where their fingers are. They're very aware of this, too...
Wait.............what? Money where their fingers are? I have to use my finger to pull money out of my wallet..................what?

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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
A few cudos...and clarifications:

1) Number 3 is a valued member of this forum, not only for his "insight" from an OEM perspective but also, for his automotive engineering knowledge. He "tempers" our "boyz who dream" exuberance and passion with an occasional dose of reality...and reels us back to "what actually might be" territory. NEVER a bad thing, NOT a roadblock, NOT a killjoy...and certainly he's NOT of "beancounter cloth", although at some point the "beancounter$" WILL play their roll. A roll Number 3 is unfortunately familiar with... I think this is where the "respect" icon is inserted...

2) Z4E, for those of you not aware, moderates the CAMARO sub-forum at gminsidenews.com He's passionate. He's in contact, obviously, with all and sundry kinds of folks...some of whom even work for GM. As some have rightly mentioned, here, NO ONE on the "inside" DARE "spill the beans", in totality or perhaps even in an off-handed way. Doesn't mean "hints" of things that may come to pass are not/won't be present...and it certainly doesn't mean those within GM aren't above a lil "teasing"... After all, those folks put their pants on, one leg at a time, too.

3) My personal keen interest in seeing a Zee with an LS7 is based on personal experience, both street AND road course, with TT'd LS-series engines AND the LS7. And I'm here to tell ya, bang for the buck, gimme the LS7...ANY DAY... As I mentioned earlier, this sort of "concept" is far from new, or even recent. Goes back months 'n months...and there ARE GM folks chompin' at the bit to see a sensible, profitable version of this car come to market...long before the announcement of the BOSS. The BOSS simply (?!) makes the "discussions" more poignant...

And to mitigate "packaging issues" with regard to drysump, GM through GM PP has already created a wetsump LS7 kit...it was featured a few months ago in Hot Rod Magazine...will therefore crash-test like an LS3 (but you still have to "prove" that)...which means no sump tank hung out the front, or anywhere else. Will a wetsump LS7 live? Pete has the answer to that. I doubt he's popped any LS3s from oil starvation...

And for another co-operative venture NOT approved for production, take a gander at this from Thomson Automotive, a company somewhat familiar to GM Powertrain personnel and GM PP peeps:

http://www.thomsonautomotive.com/?page=ultimate_ls7.cfm

Something to consider, when YOU get YOUR Z/28...

And yes, that was a "tease"...too...kinda...


4) My mention of Akerson's quote regarding "special engines for sport(y) cars", even if NOT "accurate", certainly HINTS at "mass usage of existing components"...which builds a better "business case"...and builds it more quickly, with broader consensus...

5) Number 3's "observation" of "streamined production": TAKE NOTE! This car will not be all things to all people. Hell, I don't want no "*****" Zees in Panther Pink with fuzzy seats and illuminated make-up mirrors.

A few colors...a very few options...batch-built...weight-restricted...aero-correct with ZL1 splitter/spoiler...maybe the Heritage Grille for this obviously "heritage" car, as its primary differentiator, appearance-wise, since a crash-test is necessary anyway...

Now...someone start a THREAD on EVERY CAMARO SITE EXTANT...kinda like that luckless "El Camino" deal a few weeks back...soliciting GENUINE ORDER INTENT...

...and THEN send all results/feedback to someone as far up the foodchain in the RenCen as you can reach...

...and I'll raise MY HAND NOW!
Far too much kindness and credit. But I have felt a kinship to many here in our ongoing discussions of things that are..............things that will be.................and things that are hoped for. These are the threads were the real passion is and friendly discussion can occur as there is really no truly right or wrong answer.

I give you a test................ask any Gen 5 owner on Camaro 5, "If I gave you $5,000 to spend on your car, what would you buy"? You will get answers from wheels to paint to driveline to chassis. And they are all correct answers because each customer is right in his own mind. And that is how this mythical car will play out. It may come to be, it may not. If it doesn't we'll have a thread on why not, if it does, we'll have a thread on all the things it has as well as all the things that it doesn't.

Love this Camaro5, I really do.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:22 PM   #280
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You only have to answer 2 questions GM.

1. Will people buy a Z28?
2. How much money will we make?
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:45 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
You only have to answer 2 questions GM.

1. Will people buy a Z28?
2. How much money will we make?
And you have boiled it down to the key elements.

For the first question, you need to add a 1b, how MANY will buy a Z28. Volume is what drives piece price and investment amortization. And that ultimately leads to question 2.

But for Question 1, YES is the correct answer.

Whispered voice in a corn field.................."Build it ................. and he will come"
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:21 AM   #282
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i haven't read all of this but my opinion of the Z28 is price it between the 2LT and the 1SS and I would buy one in a heartbeat. just sayin....
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:30 AM   #283
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I give you a test................ask any Gen 5 owner on Camaro 5, "If I gave you $5,000 to spend on your car, what would you buy"?
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:38 AM   #284
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Sounds to me like you're not really interested in a Z/28......
I just said in a prior thread. I am 61 years old and would buy a Z. If it has all the right parts, to be the ford butt kicker. That we all hope for. But I dont care for all the plush junk. Give me a stripped down go fast version. Just the basics. Maybe GM will offer us a build sheet, say start with a base car. Then let the buyer add or delete what they want. You could do some of that in the old days.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:37 AM   #285
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i haven't read all of this but my opinion of the Z28 is price it between the 2LT and the 1SS and I would buy one in a heartbeat. just sayin....
That would be appropriate territory for an LS-Zee (or Zee-lite):

*LLT - MN6
*FE4
*ZL1-type Wheels/Tires
*ZL1-type Splitter/Spoiler
*Exhaust

MSRP about $29,500

...and there's a market for THAT car, too...not to mention, it's very CAFE-friendly, friend.

BTW, the Team is aware of this concept as well...

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Old 06-09-2011, 08:55 AM   #286
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I give you a test................ask any Gen 5 owner on Camaro 5, "If I gave you $5,000 to spend on your car, what would you buy"? You will get answers from wheels to paint to driveline to chassis. And they are all correct answers because each customer is right in his own mind. And that is how this mythical car will play out.
If you ask them to spend $10,000, they'll ask for "all the above"...

...and THAT is what we'll give 'em...

1SS = $35K (with all the toyz)

2SS = $35K (Base; high-$30s, dressed)

ZL1 = $55K (loaded, GT500 coin)

Zee28 = $45K...splits the "difference", stair-steps 'em up the price ladder, gives them OEM Warranty/comfort...and, coincidentally, pretty much matches price, but will trump the performance, of something called a BOSS...

As I asked before, and Pete is kinda-sorta "suggesting", how many people have spent how many dollars creating their own version of a Zee?!

The LS7's "lifespan" roughly mirrors the Gen-5 Camaro's. AND the ZL1's, for that matter. Use what you can from the ZL1, add a wet-sump LS7 and non-MR bits 'n pieces, stir vigorously, HOLD the frills but NOT the thrills, and watch the "cake" (sales) rise...

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:13 AM   #287
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Too funny!

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:24 AM   #288
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And you have boiled it down to the key elements.

For the first question, you need to add a 1b, how MANY will buy a Z28. Volume is what drives piece price and investment amortization. And that ultimately leads to question 2.

But for Question 1, YES is the correct answer.

Whispered voice in a corn field.................."Build it ................. and he will come"
I hear ya, but that falls under #2 "how much money".
I'm sure GM has or is looking at this, but as novice quasi-insiders I think we've made good arguments and have pointed out that it can be done using existing pieces. And as Lowdown pointed out it the LS7 and Gen5 should exist for the same amount of time.
GM would not have to spend much on marketing as the return of the Z28 would create so much rumbling itself. The mags would bow down in thankfulness as they would sell many more mags. Add to that filling in the missing pricepoint which also means more $$$ for GM.
It all makes sense to this novice quasi-insider.
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:03 PM   #289
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It all makes sense to this novice quasi-insider.
...which, unfortunately, does NOT necessarily translate into a "done deal"...

Number 3, standing in that cornfield, mentioned, "Build it...and they will come..."

Z4E sez, "There's got to be people at GM in sync, and sympathetic..."

Sage words, truly, but someone else, here, said, "But ya gotta wanna DO IT!".

And will Corvette allow the use of the LS7 in its not-so-lil brother's steamroom?

Somewhere, between Cornfield County, Bowling Green, Oshawa, and the RenCen, WILL come the TRUTH...

Stay tuned!
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:10 PM   #290
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Oh-h build me a ZEE!!
LS7 burning bright
What so proudly will WAIL
In the twilight, a-gleaming
With BROAD STRIPES on BRIGHT CARS
Filled with rumbling MIGHT!
O'er the racetracks we watch
Engine gallantly screaming!!
And the taillights' RED GLARE
The shifts ripping with FLARE
Gave proof, day and night,
Checkered flags are still there!!!
Oh say! Does that star-spangled
Hot car we crave
In the Land of the Free!!!
Mustang owners, be BRAVE!
Yaknow, the next time you watch a NASCAR race on TV, you'll wanna sing THIS song...
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:22 PM   #291
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And truth be told....


The best way for GM to get "in sync" with this, is with the success of their crosstown rival. Thank GOD ALMIGHTY for the Boss Mustang. And I'm not even kidding.

The Boss has finally got GM focused in this regard, more effectively than one million threads like this ever could. But maybe - it's up to us to help them stay on track.
Can't hurt, right!?
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:26 PM   #292
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Number 3,
If you can't answer I understand. My question is, "how much bearing did the Mustang Boss have on the ZL1 receiving its name"?

0% - 100% ?

Thank you for your support.
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Old 06-09-2011, 02:50 PM   #293
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Well, for one thing, the LS7 won't be around for much longer. At the end of the day, I really don't see an alternative to a slightly hotter version of the LS3.
I know the GenIV LS engines are on the way out, we have known this for a few years. A slightly hotter LS3 is a big task since we would need some new internals which means reliability test and new certifications. The LS7 is already built for what we need it to be thus requiring less time to bring to market. The only big down side of the LS7 is that it is hand built which makes it expensive.

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We'll see a potentially more powerful DI Gen V in the C7 in about two years, but I'd doubt that GM would spend the money to certify that for the current Camaro, right at the end of it's lifespan.
As of yet we don't know when we will move to the Alpha frame. I also feel like we will see the C7 as a 2013 model year with the new GenV V8. This could lead to a mid year (around February 2013) Z28 with the new GenV V8.
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Old 06-09-2011, 03:20 PM   #294
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Off to Oshawa to the BBOMG/OCC deal. I'll see the ZL1 first hand; taking my 4-corner scales 'n weight it...!!
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Old 06-09-2011, 03:44 PM   #295
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Without spilling too many beans.

6th gen Camaro: 2015 as a '16 MY.

No chance that Camaro will access the GenV smallblock by Feb 2013. Although I'm happy to share what I can with you guys, that's all I can say about that.
I have heard 6th gen as a 2016 model year too, mostly to deal with then CAFE standards, but depending on the the release of the GenV V8's we may not need to switch to the Alpha frame if sales are still great for the 5thgen.

I also dont think its that much of a stretch to think we can get a Z28 with a GenV V8 6 months after the vette does.
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Old 06-09-2011, 03:59 PM   #296
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STOP DREAMING!!!

If we have any chance of getting a 5Gen Z28 *oss competitor, it has to be an LS7. Based on time and whatever else. Yeah it cost a few thousand more, but think of it a 427 Z28!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #297
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But I love the look of the 5Gen. Hasn't every other gerneration had a Z28? (Rhetorical)
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Old 06-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #298
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STOP DREAMING!!!

If we have any chance of getting a 5Gen Z28 *oss competitor, it has to be an LS7. Based on time and whatever else. Yeah it cost a few thousand more, but think of it a 427 Z28!!!!!!!!!!!!!
why do you say it HAS to be a LS7???

maybe GM has something else in mind, a new engine, the rumoured twin-turbo V6, who knows....
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Old 06-09-2011, 04:46 PM   #299
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Number 3,
If you can't answer I understand. My question is, "how much bearing did the Mustang Boss have on the ZL1 receiving its name"?

0% - 100% ?

Thank you for your support.
I can honestly say I have no idea. I believe very little, but as Fbodfather says, "I don't remember seeing him in any of our meetings" so that is only a pure 100% opinion.

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why do you say it HAS to be a LS7???

maybe GM has something else in mind, a new engine, the rumoured twin-turbo V6, who knows....
Beaten to death. TT V6 = LS3 on it's best day. And weight of 3 more camshafts, Turbo and intercooler make up for much of the weight reduction. Look at the Ford Truck engine. It's just barely an LS3 if at all. It just gets FE.........................wait new rumor. Z28 for 28 mpgs.




BTW, what is this? It looks purrrrrrty in red.
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:02 PM   #300
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Thanks Number3 for commenting on the new engine...

And yes it is pretty in red. And I know just where to put it.
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