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Old 06-06-2011, 05:27 PM   #205
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Here is my run at a build-able Z28 from Chevrolet. It starts with a clearly defined build sheet with no options other than six speed or automatic. Colors are limited to no more than three. I would prefer two colors -- White with Black Wheels and Blue with Yellow Wheels. The cars are built in batches. This is critical because we are deviating from a standard Camaro build. By batching them the line can run with a high level of efficiency as color is the only option.

Engine Choice -- If the LS7 is available at a reasonable price we use the LS7, although a LS3 with a GMPP cam and tune would be good too. My bottom line is we need 500 NA at the crank, or more What I really want is 500 NA at the rear wheels. That means 550 or 560 at the crank. That also means we need heads to go with the cam on the upgraded LS3. I am not sure what it would take on the LS7. I'll accept 500 at the crank, but I would be a drooling idiot with 500 at the rear wheels. LS7 or LS3 doesn't matter as long as we are in the RWHP minimum range of 430. Stop it. If you want 560 crank you GET the LSA. Period. You can't just be making stuff up. You either get the LS7 and it's price tag or you get something less. You don't get more or GM would have already done that. And it took every bit of Titanium to get the LS7 where it is. More isn't there without forced induction.

Weight Reduction -- Everywhere we can from reduced spray in sound insulation - cloth non-power seats - fascia - console - wheels - brakes - exhaust - can you use less paint? No sun roof. No back up camera. This will be a legal requirement, sorry. Blame Uncle Sam. The focus is on performance. Wait a minute. Can we replace the side view mirrors with a video display for less wind resistance and the same or less weight? It's been demonstrated, but mirrors are the least of your problems with the Camaro for aero. And you need a NAV screen somewhere legal to be able to see it. Cost and mass prohibitive for negligable mass savings if not a mass hit. If you are going after aero, you need a comprehensive package of many parts, likely including underbody panels.

Wheels and Tires -- You can probably guess 19x10.5 lightweight wheels with 305/30/19s

Gearing -- The smaller rolling diameter wheel and tire package address the gear change, but we'll ask the engineers at Chevrolet to fine tune the gear box ratios for optimal performance

Brakes -- CTS-V / ZL1 calipers with the of the shelf GMPP Brembo two piece front rotors to improve breaking and reduce weight and don't forget the brake ducts

Exhaust -- Titanium borrowed from the Vette. A little more aggressive in tone. This ain't no panty waist machine. We want an edge to it. Don't disagree, but it's over $1,000 for about 30 pounds. There is a reason it's not on the C6 Z06. I might spend my grand elsewhere.

Hood and Fascias -- Keep it simple, clean and light. If it doesn't reduce the drag coefficient or add down force it doesn't go on the car. Cold air induction is critical.

Thermal Management -- The LS engine do not like heat and they are furnaces. Lose the sound insulation above the plenum. Lose the engine cover. Lose the hood blanket. Add heat extractors. Coat the cast iron manifold inside and out to reduce heat transfer. Add oil and PS coolers. Can we increase the oil capacity with a new pan? Maybe add a few baffles? Don't forget the diff cooler.

Driveline -- We want the revised ZL1 drive-line since we plan on abusing, err driving this one Change out the lube in the OE CV joints so it doesn't liquefy when running hard laps to a higher temp lube.

Suspension -- Forget the typical OE conservative understeer bias. We prefer axx happier The suspension has to be Pedders Supercars with independent bound and rebound adjustment. We'll address the adjustable ride height with special locking rings that require a special bow-tie track spanner to unlock them. The special bow-tie track spanner is for off road use only In addition to the new revised sub-frame bushes that started in January, we want to add Pedders sub-frame inserts. We'll also use the EP6579 full face radius bush inserts. Pedders extended range alignment bolts are direct replacements for the OE bolts and provide a greater range of adjustment to suit the use of the car. These can all be integrated into the line process. A little trickier are the Toe link bushes. I guess GM will have to ship the OE arm to Pedders and we'll return them with our bushes. Allow me to compliment GM on the ZETA II. The arms are good to go from the factory. They do not need replacement. The arms just need a little assist from Pedders

Steering Wheel -- I love the CTS-V wheel. The ZL1 is close to the CTS-V. We want a wheel with Alcantara for grip. I could care less about the controls on the wheel.

Gauges -- We need real gauges and not simulations of gauges. The oil temp must read from an oil temp sensor with an accurate reading.

Warranty -- We are asking for a lot of performance at the best possible price. I for one would be happy with a 24 month / 36k bumper to bumper. I don't expect GM to cover what I am asking to be built for 100,000 miles on the drive-line. There is a balance to be reached. Deliver me a car that works well. Allow me to beat on it, not run it into the ground, but use it as it was intended to be used for a reasonable period of time. i.e. I was running laps at Harris Hiils. My CV joint failed. Cover my CV joint and allow me to be honest. In exchange I'll take a shorter warranty period. If GM were to do it, you wouldn't get a reduced warranty. That's why from GM you have powertrain requirements for durability that MUST and WILL be met. That was one of the great things about the Gen 1 Z28.............it carried the standard GM warranty

We have a Z28 that is a very different car from my wife's ZL1. It should sell well and compliment SS and ZL1 sales, b ut that is just my opinion.
Keep in mind to sell in high numbers it has to be reasonable to drive on the road. Not quiet or elegant, but you have to have A/C, a decent radio and power steering and brakes, etc. It won't sell if you restrict too much. Many of the nice options were available on every Z28 ever made including the Gen 1 car (other than A/C). And GM has made it public that their safety strategy includes Active Handling and OnStar. And GM would not likely sell the car with less than a 4 or 5 star safety rating, meaning you get the full complement of airbags. I'd love an SSX, but I'm not sure that gets you the most volume or the most profitable package.

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Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
Ok I get the logic on all of the above... still gonna argue that the Z28 will be a higher volume car and as such need more color options. Not to open the "what do you call it" debate, but I still think that the name itself communicates a widely available and affordable sports/muscle car...

So I'm thinking the price needs to be below 40K... HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

Having said that... I'm always amazed at how expensive weight reduction is... I think that is going to be the most difficult hurdle to clear... I like the idea of stripped down.. but I don't know if the price point will support that amount of real weight reduction...

No Z28 was lightweighted. Why start here. I go back to small car envy

I say go with as many suspension components as possible. Remove the fluff, leather power seats (I get the AC and Radio requirement and I agree it should be there.) very simple stereo with less speakers and so on... and try like hell to keep the price down. If, the buyer wants to pay the aftermarket for lighter stuff... then so be it... we've pretty much proven that Camaro owners are spending large sums of money right now...
But why force them to the aftermarket if GM can make money on those features. That would make a much better business case for a car like this.
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:25 PM   #206
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Keep in mind to sell in high numbers it has to be reasonable to drive on the road. Not quiet or elegant, but you have to have A/C, a decent radio and power steering and brakes, etc. It won't sell if you restrict too much. Many of the nice options were available on every Z28 ever made including the Gen 1 car (other than A/C). And GM has made it public that their safety strategy includes Active Handling and OnStar. And GM would not likely sell the car with less than a 4 or 5 star safety rating, meaning you get the full complement of airbags. I'd love an SSX, but I'm not sure that gets you the most volume or the most profitable package.



But why force them to the aftermarket if GM can make money on those features. That would make a much better business case for a car like this.
Is #3 having a bad day

So we take the LS7 with a full warranty. Damn I hate when that happens I'll take the weight savings on the exhuast along with the bill.

So when can I place my order for Serial # 427
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:25 PM   #207
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Don't limit the colors and make all stripes options. I need my Victory Red with white stripes.

Let the buyer decide what options should be on the car. If someone wants a stripped race car, order it that way.

Pete, I'll get my #28 before you get your #427.
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:37 PM   #208
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Pete, I'll get my #28 before you get your #427.




































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Old 06-06-2011, 06:46 PM   #209
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Wow, I love it guys!
I go away for a little while and we are in it up to our necks. Hey Number 3 I think the excitement is back!!!
Pete I'm impressed with what you've put together. A stout 427, bulletproof drivetrain, brakes from h**l, wheel/tire combo for grip/less unsprung weight and a track-like suspension. If we can get the pricepoint $42K - $43K I think we're there. And, I fully agree, I want a decent stereo and living in the south you gotta have AC. But for those hardcore guys this can be stripped, by them. Go ahead and allow for some options, but Pete I'm with you keep it simple. As for colors and such this car has to be easily recognized as a different and special Camaro, Yeah a Z28.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:01 PM   #210
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Is #3 having a bad day

So we take the LS7 with a full warranty. Damn I hate when that happens I'll take the weight savings on the exhuast along with the bill.

So when can I place my order for Serial # 427
The LS7 enjoys a full powertrain warranty in the Corvette, why would you expect any less in this mythical creation we are concocting via internet conjecture?
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:03 PM   #211
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Wow, I love it guys!
I go away for a little while and we are in it up to our necks. Hey Number 3 I think the excitement is back!!!
Pete I'm impressed with what you've put together. A stout 427, bulletproof drivetrain, brakes from h**l, wheel/tire combo for grip/less unsprung weight and a track-like suspension. If we can get the pricepoint $42K - $43K I think we're there. And, I fully agree, I want a decent stereo and living in the south you gotta have AC. But for those hardcore guys this can be stripped, by them. Go ahead and allow for some options, but Pete I'm with you keep it simple. As for colors and such this car has to be easily recognized as a different and special Camaro, Yeah a Z28.
Ooops should have multi-posted...........

Yes, if you don't stay on top of these things you could end up with a Z71....................or a Z24
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:18 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Here is my run at a build-able Z28 from Chevrolet. It starts with a clearly defined build sheet with no options other than six speed or automatic. Colors are limited to no more than three. I would prefer two colors -- White with Black Wheels and Blue with Yellow Wheels. The cars are built in batches. This is critical because we are deviating from a standard Camaro build. By batching them the line can run with a high level of efficiency as color is the only option.

Engine Choice -- If the LS7 is available at a reasonable price we use the LS7, although a LS3 with a GMPP cam and tune would be good too. My bottom line is we need 500 NA at the crank, or more What I really want is 500 NA at the rear wheels. That means 550 or 560 at the crank. That also means we need heads to go with the cam on the upgraded LS3. I am not sure what it would take on the LS7. I'll accept 500 at the crank, but I would be a drooling idiot with 500 at the rear wheels. LS7 or LS3 doesn't matter as long as we are in the RWHP minimum range of 430.

Weight Reduction -- Everywhere we can from reduced spray in sound insulation - cloth non-power seats - fascia - console - wheels - brakes - exhaust - can you use less paint? No sun roof. No back up camera. The focus is on performance. Wait a minute. Can we replace the side view mirrors with a video display for less wind resistance and the same or less weight?

Wheels and Tires -- You can probably guess 19x10.5 lightweight wheels with 305/30/19s

Gearing -- The smaller rolling diameter wheel and tire package address the gear change, but we'll ask the engineers at Chevrolet to fine tune the gear box ratios for optimal performance

Brakes -- CTS-V / ZL1 calipers with the of the shelf GMPP Brembo two piece front rotors to improve breaking and reduce weight and don't forget the brake ducts

Exhaust -- Titanium borrowed from the Vette. A little more aggressive in tone. This ain't no panty waist machine. We want an edge to it.

Hood and Fascias -- Keep it simple, clean and light. If it doesn't reduce the drag coefficient or add down force it doesn't go on the car. Cold air induction is critical.

Thermal Management -- The LS engine do not like heat and they are furnaces. Lose the sound insulation above the plenum. Lose the engine cover. Lose the hood blanket. Add heat extractors. Coat the cast iron manifold inside and out to reduce heat transfer. Add oil and PS coolers. Can we increase the oil capacity with a new pan? Maybe add a few baffles? Don't forget the diff cooler.

Driveline -- We want the revised ZL1 drive-line since we plan on abusing, err driving this one Change out the lube in the OE CV joints so it doesn't liquefy when running hard laps to a higher temp lube.

Suspension -- Forget the typical OE conservative understeer bias. We prefer axx happier The suspension has to be Pedders Supercars with independent bound and rebound adjustment. We'll address the adjustable ride height with special locking rings that require a special bow-tie track spanner to unlock them. The special bow-tie track spanner is for off road use only In addition to the new revised sub-frame bushes that started in January, we want to add Pedders sub-frame inserts. We'll also use the EP6579 full face radius bush inserts. Pedders extended range alignment bolts are direct replacements for the OE bolts and provide a greater range of adjustment to suit the use of the car. These can all be integrated into the line process. A little trickier are the Toe link bushes. I guess GM will have to ship the OE arm to Pedders and we'll return them with our bushes. Allow me to compliment GM on the ZETA II. The arms are good to go from the factory. They do not need replacement. The arms just need a little assist from Pedders

Steering Wheel -- I love the CTS-V wheel. The ZL1 is close to the CTS-V. We want a wheel with Alcantara for grip. I could care less about the controls on the wheel.

Gauges -- We need real gauges and not simulations of gauges. The oil temp must read from an oil temp sensor with an accurate reading.

Warranty -- We are asking for a lot of performance at the best possible price. I for one would be happy with a 24 month / 36k bumper to bumper. I don't expect GM to cover what I am asking to be built for 100,000 miles on the drive-line. There is a balance to be reached. Deliver me a car that works well. Allow me to beat on it, not run it into the ground, but use it as it was intended to be used for a reasonable period of time. i.e. I was running laps at Harris Hiils. My CV joint failed. Cover my CV joint and allow me to be honest. In exchange I'll take a shorter warranty period.

We have a Z28 that is a very different car from my wife's ZL1. It should sell well and compliment SS and ZL1 sales, b ut that is just my opinion.
I like the way you think...

I'm guessing the ZL1 will be $55,990ish, so the Z/28 can be $42,990-$44,990 range. Coupe only, no verts.
Limited number (least amount possible yet profitable). est 2800 units.

Like the color scheme idea, but I would say 4 color combos:
red with silver wheels/stripes
white with black wheels/stripes
blue with black wheels/stripes
black with silver wheels/stripes
(love the blue and yellow combo idea but don't think it would sell despite the heritage)

I'm thinking LS3R (I think the LS7 would be too pricey) factory LT headers, manual trans only, tuned for 93 or E85. Rear gear change or tighter gears in the trans (no OD).
The hood I know won't have the blanket... out back a functional pedestal wing. Not as much a fan of the SCCA nose but for this, having a headlight more flush with the nose makes sense.
Carbon fiber Recaro racing seats. I would say rear seat, radio & A/C delete, but that's impractical.
Light weight 18"-19" BBS racing wheels with only summer compound tires. Suspension... I don't know... I like the Pedders idea, but would be ok with Pfadt or a hybrid of both between Pedders bushings and Pfadt arms (please excuse my ignorance on the suspension)

Horsepower should be N/A and less than the ZL1, I think 470 @ the crank could get the job done, but this car needs to be able to out corner a ZL1 and a Boss 302 @ Willow Springs.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:50 PM   #213
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Pete, don't ya just luv it when someone takes your concept and puts FAT suspension on it instead...?!

Wait...we're talkin' WEIGHT...not BRAND...here...

As to hp, we're a tune from 500 at the wheels with the LS7... 'Course, there is that warranty issue...
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:55 PM   #214
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Pete, don't ya just luv it when someone takes your concept and puts FAT suspension on it instead...?!

Wait...we're talkin' WEIGHT...not BRAND...here...
What do ya think? Maybe he don't know Pete???
Gotta love it.

BTW Lowdown, you think we have this car spec'd out for GM feasibly, and at a reasonable price?
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:49 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahdir View Post
I'm guessing the ZL1 will be $55,990ish, so the Z/28 can be $42,990-$44,990 range. Coupe only, no verts.
Limited number (least amount possible yet profitable). est 2800 units.




Like the color scheme idea, but I would say 4 color combos:
red with silver wheels/stripes
white with black wheels/stripes
blue with black wheels/stripes
black with silver wheels/stripes

(love the blue and yellow combo idea but don't think it would sell despite the heritage)


Why give dealers that chance for a markup on a limited car? The Boss is limited and the dealers are getting "BIG" money over sticker. If you want a new Z/28 you should be able to order it with your options.

I don't like the "Boss" colors. Let's keep it a Chevrolet.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:08 PM   #216
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^Exactly!
the missing $40K pricepoint. If your competitor sells a mid price point you need to match them.
Why? If it doesn't make any sense for YOU to make it due to costs/return on investment...

"Keeping up with the Joneses" is not a business case. Especially not when the competitor is a car nobody can buy, atm....

I would LOOOOOVVVEEEEE to see a "Z28" Camaro as everyone has promoted around here, I've said it before. An SS with some more spunk from the factory would be awesome!

But I find (from an outsider's perspective) the business case to be a VERY hard one to pitch when you (the Camaro team) have just finished your pièce de résistance: the ZL1.

Folks around here want handling. Well, I truly wonder how the the new FE4 adjustment on the SSs will effect people's minds around here. Nobody's had a chance to sample it, yet. I doubt it'll be quite as touchy as the Boss Mustang, but I imagine it's a substantial improvement over the current setup...
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:24 PM   #217
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I am guesstimating the Z28 could be built for some where between $43 to $45K where the ZL1 will be $50 to $55K. Aside from price point the character of the cars will be very different. The Corvette sells in base, Grand Sport, Z06 and ZL1 trim. Each one is still a Vette, but different. Unlike the Vette, the Camaro must generate volume sales across the board as well as in each trim level. I can see where there is a market for both the ZL1 and Z28. The question is units. I am not sure what Chevrolet will find acceptable for the ZL1. I know it will sell a 1,000 units in a Chevy Heartbeat. 10,000 may be realistic. If they could get 7,000 Z28s and 7,000 ZL1s per year, can they make money over 3 years? Does it rake 15K ZL1s per year to make a profit? It all comes down to units and if they just drain away SS sales are any variants good for business without a large built in margin?
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:26 PM   #218
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What do ya think? Maybe he don't know Pete???
High. My name is Pete. I am a Pedder-aholic
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:42 PM   #219
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Folks around here want handling. Well, I truly wonder how the the new FE4 adjustment on the SSs will effect people's minds around here. Nobody's had a chance to sample it, yet. I doubt it'll be quite as touchy as the Boss Mustang, but I imagine it's a substantial improvement over the current setup...
Having driven the MR suspension on ZETA in a HSV I feel I have sampled it. It is very good and as I have written numerous times, probably makes most drivers better and faster. It is an excellent suspension. Those that buy a ZL1 will like what they get.

The Mustang with a three arm solid axle will always be a bit touchier as you described. I have not driven a Camaro with MRC or with the new RLCA and sway bar so what I write next is inferred. The Camaro whispers in your ear what the IRS is doing. The Mustang sort of yells watch out and almost too late. The ZL1 will be very sophisticated.

The Z28, in my mind's eye, is a a bit edgier, but not a club racer with a cage and no interior. An SS with the current suspension, the Z28 with use controlled damping and the ZL1 with MRC makes sense to me in terms of range and markets. NA vs SC.

If the Z28 just sucks unit sales away from the SS and ZL1 it would be a bad idea. If it adds unit volumes with conquest sales from other brands they should build it tomorrow.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:05 PM   #220
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Having driven the MR suspension on ZETA in a HSV I feel I have sampled it. It is very good and as I have written numerous times, probably makes most drivers better and faster. It is an excellent suspension. Those that buy a ZL1 will like what they get.

The Mustang with a three arm solid axle will always be a bit touchier as you described. I have not driven a Camaro with MRC or with the new RLCA and sway bar so what I write next is inferred. The Camaro whispers in your ear what the IRS is doing. The Mustang sort of yells watch out and almost too late. The ZL1 will be very sophisticated.

The Z28, in my mind's eye, is a a bit edgier, but not a club racer with a cage and no interior. An SS with the current suspension, the Z28 with use controlled damping and the ZL1 with MRC makes sense to me in terms of range and markets. NA vs SC.

If the Z28 just sucks unit sales away from the SS and ZL1 it would be a bad idea. If it adds unit volumes with conquest sales from other brands they should build it tomorrow.
I'm just referring to the 2012 suspension update in the SS models. Short of custom damping adjustment like your coilovers or the Boss Mustang to a much lesser extent...It should be very nice.

You seem to be talking about the ZL1 suspension/MR...or am I reading your post wrong?
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:37 PM   #221
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I'm just referring to the 2012 suspension update in the SS models. Short of custom damping adjustment like your coilovers or the Boss Mustang to a much lesser extent...It should be very nice.

You seem to be talking about the ZL1 suspension/MR...or am I reading your post wrong?
You are spot on as usual.
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