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Old 06-05-2011, 07:45 PM   #183
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1) You haven't said you'd pay a ZL1 sticker for a Z28.

2) And you have missed my point in that I don't think chassis alone gets you a Camaro that beats the ZL1 around the track without SERIOUS HP to go with it. And that serious HP in the form of a LS7. So there is no boss competitor with an LS3. So what is the alternative that gives you a Boss beater but not a ZL1 beater.

3) how do you beat the boss when the ZL1 will very likely do it, but for less money than a ZL1that makes it a boss beater for price, low 40's?

4) Or as I've asked and no one has answered, will you pay ZL1 money for the Boss Beater even though you won't get the "luxuries" the ZL1 offers. Just a car with a slightly different mission.

...boiled down to 4 questions (a familiar form)...

1) And just how MUCH is that? In context with the rest of this "comparo", below, how close to a 600+ hp GT500 do you dare to go?!

2) It's called power-to-weight. 4100/556 = 7.37 lb/hp for ZL1. Of course with GT500 moving to 620 hp, the ZL1 may "grow" as well...

A "Z/28" @ 3800/505 (LS7) = 7.52. @ 3700 lbs, we're now at 7.33. hmmm... AND we have a much closer to "ideal 50/50 distribution" with at least 200 fewer lb. on the nose than the ZL1.

3) I think if a "serious" package is manifested by GM, matching the BOSS price, $ for $, is less of an issue. Target mid-$40s, and target the BOSS times, NOT the ZL1s. The more "technical" the track, the less of an issue the 4100 lb. ZL1 will be...and I firmly believe a BOSS-leaning (as opposed to a GT500-leaning) prospect will ONLY be interested in a true BOSS competitor, in DEED and in CO$T. At this moment, they have NO HOME @ GM...for mid-$40s, OEM...

4) No...but that is NOT a fair question, because you're asking people to pay GT500 money for a BOSS...and that just is NOT necessary, is it? If you cannot compete with the BOSS, that says VOLUMES about Camaro...and GM... And if you can't, then mothball the hallowed name, and "concept", till you CAN...
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:55 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Unless there is a different engine in the works that they are going to pull out of no where I just don't think its gonna happen. The LS7 is just to damn expensive for the price range your trying to compete with.

I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this one
Earlier, Number 3 said a $40s Z/28-LS7 was "ballpark", to paraphrase...

As to your ascertions regarding the veracity of Z4E's info and "knowledge", "sources", just like yours, are simply that...sources. Right? And WE all have 'em...
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Old 06-05-2011, 08:50 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
...boiled down to 4 questions (a familiar form)...

1) And just how MUCH is that? In context with the rest of this "comparo", below, how close to a 600+ hp GT500 do you dare to go?!

2) It's called power-to-weight. 4100/556 = 7.37 lb/hp for ZL1. Of course with GT500 moving to 620 hp, the ZL1 may "grow" as well...

A "Z/28" @ 3800/505 (LS7) = 7.52. @ 3700 lbs, we're now at 7.33. hmmm... AND we have a much closer to "ideal 50/50 distribution" with at least 200 fewer lb. on the nose than the ZL1.

3) I think if a "serious" package is manifested by GM, matching the BOSS price, $ for $, is less of an issue. Target mid-$40s, and target the BOSS times, NOT the ZL1s. The more "technical" the track, the less of an issue the 4100 lb. ZL1 will be...and I firmly believe a BOSS-leaning (as opposed to a GT500-leaning) prospect will ONLY be interested in a true BOSS competitor, in DEED and in CO$T. At this moment, they have NO HOME @ GM...for mid-$40s, OEM...

4) No...but that is NOT a fair question, because you're asking people to pay GT500 money for a BOSS...and that just is NOT necessary, is it? If you cannot compete with the BOSS, that says VOLUMES about Camaro...and GM... And if you can't, then mothball the hallowed name, and "concept", till you CAN...
So you would a) be critical of GM's capability of creating an awesome Camaro and b) hold off on using Z28 simply and only because it wouldn't beat the Boss???????????????????????

I'm shocked, honestly, at that point. The Camaro is a HUGE success and loved for everything it is, including a large car weighing more than a Mustang including the Boss. Keeping in mind that the Mustang itself is heavy for the size it is which is a size smaller. So with a lighter car and a few more HP than the Camaro, you would be critical of GM for not coming up with a car that can compete?

That's been my point, some want simply a better handling track ready Camaro. But some will claim fail simply because it doesn't beat the Boss.

Not buying or selling, but I'd be happy to put the Z28 badge on the best handling CAMARO................period.

And I still think you will all be pretty surprised at what a ZL1 can do. It will have the chassis and brakes to take to the track and over 100 HP on the Boss. I'm looking forward to the comparison.

BTW, has anyone seen the Boss numbers for the 'ring? As we've seen the ZL1 spent a lot of time on the 'ring.
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:11 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
So you would a) be critical of GM's capability of creating an awesome Camaro and b) hold off on using Z28 simply and only because it wouldn't beat the Boss???????????????????????

I'm shocked, honestly, at that point. The Camaro is a HUGE success and loved for everything it is, including a large car weighing more than a Mustang including the Boss. Keeping in mind that the Mustang itself is heavy for the size it is which is a size smaller. So with a lighter car and a few more HP than the Camaro, you would be critical of GM for not coming up with a car that can compete?

That's been my point, some want simply a better handling track ready Camaro. But some will claim fail simply because it doesn't beat the Boss.

Not buying or selling, but I'd be happy to put the Z28 badge on the best handling CAMARO................period.

And I still think you will all be pretty surprised at what a ZL1 can do. It will have the chassis and brakes to take to the track and over 100 HP on the Boss. I'm looking forward to the comparison.

BTW, has anyone seen the Boss numbers for the 'ring? As we've seen the ZL1 spent a lot of time on the 'ring.
If you believe what some say, its faster than a Z06
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:15 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post

As to your ascertions regarding the veracity of Z4E's info and "knowledge", "sources", just like yours, are simply that...sources. Right? And WE all have 'em...
1- You dont need to answer questions for another person.

2- I don't have any sources.... So I am not sure what you are implying.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:02 PM   #188
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If the ZL1 can best the Boss which I Believe it can, I'll buy it, but not for GT500 $$,$$$.

There in lies my problem.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:04 PM   #189
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If the ZL1 can best the Boss which I Believe it can, I'll buy it, but not for GT500 $$,$$$.
But if its competitive with the GT500 than why would it cost anything less?
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:30 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
If the ZL1 can best the Boss which I Believe it can, I'll buy it, but not for GT500 $$,$$$.

There in lies my problem.
If it beats the GT500 (which knowing GM, it should), then it beats the boss by default since the GT500 still out performs the Boss.

If you can't afford a ZL1 to beat the Boss and there isn't a Z28, you could always just mod an SS. Some bolt ons and a good suspension kit should be enough to do the job.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:02 AM   #191
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I think that it would be difficult for Chevy to have the Camaro lose 200 to 250 pounds, install an LS7 engine along with coil over suspension and keep the price at a Boss based $42,000. The car would not come with a lot of luxuries that we all have come to enjoy on a daily basis, which will turn off a lot of people. I am going to agree with Number3, we have not seen what the ZL1 can really do yet and I am betting that it will surprise a lot of people, especially the blue oval group. The ZL1 name was brought back to to wreak havoc on the world, starting with the Mustangs.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:09 AM   #192
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^Exactly!
the missing $40K pricepoint. If your competitor sells a mid price point you need to match them.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:30 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I think that it would be difficult for Chevy to have the Camaro lose 200 to 250 pounds, install an LS7 engine along with coil over suspension and keep the price at a Boss based $42,000. The car would not come with a lot of luxuries that we all have come to enjoy on a daily basis, which will turn off a lot of people. I am going to agree with Number3, we have not seen what the ZL1 can really do yet and I am betting that it will surprise a lot of people, especially the blue oval group. The ZL1 name was brought back to to wreak havoc on the world, starting with the Mustangs.
No way is there going to be a LS7 powered Z/28 for 42k, that my friend is a pipe dream. The LS7 is a HANDBUILT engine not the assembly line engine like the LS3 so the cost will not get better with volume. The base Corvette is 49K and a Z06 is 74K, so I know that the SS Camaro will not only go up 10K with addition of the LS7.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:24 PM   #194
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Not simply a matter of wanting to do it. Needs a SOLID business case on top of the SS and ZL1. But your math seems in the ball park. An LS7, forged wheels and HD trans for a 10 to 12,000 dollar premium.

Regarding a Z/28-specific LS3:

But you've just created an even lower volume engine. And that means hand built at Wixom. And that still means BIG $$$$.
Either an LS7 is, or isn't, useable. And if it isn't, then it MUST be based on a Corvette-specific "issue".

As I have said more than once, building Production-ready "custom" LS3s will $ave little, and the end result will be LESS than an LS7, regardless...but NOT in weight.

Now to the "best handling Camaro" wearing the Z/28 name-

Pete has more than a few minutes of experience at a technical track named GingerMan...with all manner of cars including Mustangs and Camaros. Two questions arise:

1) All other factors being equal, what effect does placing 200 lbs (Magnacharger with intercooler and attendant hardware) have on handling, and track times? LS3 with and without 'charger? Mustangs, the same? And how repeatable is Lap 10 or 20, timewise, compared to Lap 1, 2, or 3? What effect does heat-soak have on lap times, over time?

2) Can a less-sophisticated suspension be utlized when you shed 5% of the Curb Weight when ALL of that weight comes off the nose?

Car and Driver's "Lightening Lap" gives us some very interesting "benchmarks":

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2011-feature

Run at VIR, these times are certainly "comparable":

2011 Shelby GT500 (3824 lb.) ran 1.9 seconds quicker than the previously tested 2007 cast-iron-blocked GT500, with an 84 lb-off-the-nose aluminum block...3.04 vs. 3.05.9

2011 Cadillac CTS-V (4238 lb.) ran essentially-matching 3.04.2 carrying a 556 hp rating and 400 extra pounds! Good show, MR!

Now take out 100-150 lbs. Based on Mustang's previous example, we'll "guess" a 3.00-flat is likely, and less is possible. Which is STILL 6 secongs off the Z06/Z07 Vette @ 2.53.5.

Two more points:

1) No matter what you put in a Camaro, from the Factory, you'll NOT surpass the GM TrackStar, the Z06 Carbon. And, arguably, I'll say the ZR1 in this environment will NOT beat it, lap after lap after lap, either. So...

2) Put an LS7 in a Camaro, properly chassis-tuned with minimized weight, and I believe, as with the Corvette, an LS7 will MATCH an LSA...if not BEAT it...

Somewhere, someone already has this answer...don't they?

...and, therefore, the likely answer to whether or not we'll see a Gen-5 Z/28...
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:32 PM   #195
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Let's be CRYSTAL CLEAR about one thing:

The Z/28 that is desirous is what a '67-'69 was in relation to EVERY OTHER PONY CAR OF THE DAY. A scalpel at a fist fight. 396/375s overran it at the strip. COPOs overran it at the strip. Hemi's overran it at the strip. SO WHAT?

Down Mulholland Dr., or around Sears Point, or Riverside, or...?? GIVE ME A ZEE!

THAT'S the ZEE a goodly number of folks want/need/will buy. In quantities at least equal to the BOSS...if, in fact, it's EQUAL TO THE BOSS.

Anything less than that, approaching comparable money, and it will need another name, not to be sullied from it's historically significant Donohue/Penske roots...

"Heritage"...just like the car's design. Complete with "Piggins Performance"...

Keep in mind, in '69, almost 20,000 were sold...vs. about 5,000 396/375s. Ponder those numbers...and, even then, a Zee had a price advantage over the Big Block SS, even with its "unique" engine...
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:15 PM   #196
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Great post overall. But let's talk about the above for a moment.

I am told pretty definitively that a Z/28 is coming. The implication was that it will be a 5th gen. But that was not stated directly to me. Will it be a 5th gen? Will it be a 6th gen? I posted the conversations I had on the subject on my Camaro Forums at GMI, and in no time flat, rumors were flying everywhere on the internet about a confirmed 5th gen Z/28 - but that's just not altogether true. I'm still not 100% certain if the Z/28 will come in time for the 5th gen or be reserved for the 6th gen.

Let's look at this piece by piece. The ZL1 will be coming out early next year as a '12 MY. You'd think GM would give the ZL1 at least a whole year to bask in the sun before coming out with a Z/28. That makes it a late '13 or early '14 model. Would GM develop a 5th gen Z/28 to sell for one or two model years? Could be - who knows.

ON THE OTHER HAND.......

What if GM decided that the 6th gen is really a more appropriate car for a Z/28? Smaller. Lighter. More sophisticated front and rear suspension. New Gen V direct injected smallblock, with new transmissions. I mean, in a perfect world GM would do both a 5th gen and a 6th gen. But are we in a perfect world?
It's been posted many times across the net that there were groups within GM that DIDN'T want ZL1 to be called Z28 in the 5th Gen because ZL1 didn't represent what Z28 had been. Of course, I keep asking what made a 4th Gen Z28 so special, but we have a different group running the 5th Gen program, so I digress.

If we don't see or hear about Z28 shortly after ZL1 hits the streets, I'm going to really consider there won't be Z28 until the 6th Gen. I can't see GM spending that much more money on a new platform (which I think will be more than stickers and bumper covers) and only run it a couple years. It's one think to run special stripes and seat covers, but I think Z28 will be more about suspension, engine, and maybe transmission revisions. Because I think it'll run an NA Gen IV, I think it'll require different suspension tuning. Anyways, I think these are not small changes that they'd run for only the last 2-3 years over the model run. By that time, I suspect they'd already be under the next generations development

All speculation
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