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Old 06-06-2011, 02:18 PM   #197
JusticePete
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Pete,
After having built up a pretty awesome Camaro you are now given the opportunity to design the Z28 for GM what would you do given the parts bin to raid?

Oh and Number 3 please feel free to jump in.
Here is my run at a build-able Z28 from Chevrolet. It starts with a clearly defined build sheet with no options other than six speed or automatic. Colors are limited to no more than three. I would prefer two colors -- White with Black Wheels and Blue with Yellow Wheels. The cars are built in batches. This is critical because we are deviating from a standard Camaro build. By batching them the line can run with a high level of efficiency as color is the only option.

Engine Choice -- If the LS7 is available at a reasonable price we use the LS7, although a LS3 with a GMPP cam and tune would be good too. My bottom line is we need 500 NA at the crank, or more What I really want is 500 NA at the rear wheels. That means 550 or 560 at the crank. That also means we need heads to go with the cam on the upgraded LS3. I am not sure what it would take on the LS7. I'll accept 500 at the crank, but I would be a drooling idiot with 500 at the rear wheels. LS7 or LS3 doesn't matter as long as we are in the RWHP minimum range of 430.

Weight Reduction -- Everywhere we can from reduced spray in sound insulation - cloth non-power seats - fascia - console - wheels - brakes - exhaust - can you use less paint? No sun roof. No back up camera. The focus is on performance. Wait a minute. Can we replace the side view mirrors with a video display for less wind resistance and the same or less weight?

Wheels and Tires -- You can probably guess 19x10.5 lightweight wheels with 305/30/19s

Gearing -- The smaller rolling diameter wheel and tire package address the gear change, but we'll ask the engineers at Chevrolet to fine tune the gear box ratios for optimal performance

Brakes -- CTS-V / ZL1 calipers with the of the shelf GMPP Brembo two piece front rotors to improve breaking and reduce weight and don't forget the brake ducts

Exhaust -- Titanium borrowed from the Vette. A little more aggressive in tone. This ain't no panty waist machine. We want an edge to it.

Hood and Fascias -- Keep it simple, clean and light. If it doesn't reduce the drag coefficient or add down force it doesn't go on the car. Cold air induction is critical.

Thermal Management -- The LS engine do not like heat and they are furnaces. Lose the sound insulation above the plenum. Lose the engine cover. Lose the hood blanket. Add heat extractors. Coat the cast iron manifold inside and out to reduce heat transfer. Add oil and PS coolers. Can we increase the oil capacity with a new pan? Maybe add a few baffles? Don't forget the diff cooler.

Driveline -- We want the revised ZL1 drive-line since we plan on abusing, err driving this one Change out the lube in the OE CV joints so it doesn't liquefy when running hard laps to a higher temp lube.

Suspension -- Forget the typical OE conservative understeer bias. We prefer axx happier The suspension has to be Pedders Supercars with independent bound and rebound adjustment. We'll address the adjustable ride height with special locking rings that require a special bow-tie track spanner to unlock them. The special bow-tie track spanner is for off road use only In addition to the new revised sub-frame bushes that started in January, we want to add Pedders sub-frame inserts. We'll also use the EP6579 full face radius bush inserts. Pedders extended range alignment bolts are direct replacements for the OE bolts and provide a greater range of adjustment to suit the use of the car. These can all be integrated into the line process. A little trickier are the Toe link bushes. I guess GM will have to ship the OE arm to Pedders and we'll return them with our bushes. Allow me to compliment GM on the ZETA II. The arms are good to go from the factory. They do not need replacement. The arms just need a little assist from Pedders

Steering Wheel -- I love the CTS-V wheel. The ZL1 is close to the CTS-V. We want a wheel with Alcantara for grip. I could care less about the controls on the wheel.

Gauges -- We need real gauges and not simulations of gauges. The oil temp must read from an oil temp sensor with an accurate reading.

Warranty -- We are asking for a lot of performance at the best possible price. I for one would be happy with a 24 month / 36k bumper to bumper. I don't expect GM to cover what I am asking to be built for 100,000 miles on the drive-line. There is a balance to be reached. Deliver me a car that works well. Allow me to beat on it, not run it into the ground, but use it as it was intended to be used for a reasonable period of time. i.e. I was running laps at Harris Hiils. My CV joint failed. Cover my CV joint and allow me to be honest. In exchange I'll take a shorter warranty period.

We have a Z28 that is a very different car from my wife's ZL1. It should sell well and compliment SS and ZL1 sales, b ut that is just my opinion.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:27 PM   #198
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Let's be CRYSTAL CLEAR about one thing:

The Z/28 that is desirous is what a '67-'69 was in relation to EVERY OTHER PONY CAR OF THE DAY. A scalpel at a fist fight. 396/375s overran it at the strip. COPOs overran it at the strip. Hemi's overran it at the strip. SO WHAT?

Down Mulholland Dr., or around Sears Point, or Riverside, or...?? GIVE ME A ZEE!

THAT'S the ZEE a goodly number of folks want/need/will buy. In quantities at least equal to the BOSS...if, in fact, it's EQUAL TO THE BOSS.

Anything less than that, approaching comparable money, and it will need another name, not to be sullied from it's historically significant Donohue/Penske roots...

"Heritage"...just like the car's design. Complete with "Piggins Performance"...

Keep in mind, in '69, almost 20,000 were sold...vs. about 5,000 396/375s. Ponder those numbers...and, even then, a Zee had a price advantage over the Big Block SS, even with its "unique" engine...
I hope I 'designed' a sharp enough scalpel for you.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:27 PM   #199
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OK... to Pete....

But

Need more colors........ but I Think I'm in on all the rest... what about AC? radio... etc???

you leaving all that in?

and I noticed you say to go with adj coilovers.... No Mag ride for the Z28???



and Ti exhaust??? really? seems a little over kill and expensive...

What do you think a Z28 price point should be??? and no... not what you would be willing to pay for it...

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Old 06-06-2011, 02:46 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Here is my run at a build-able Z28 from Chevrolet. It starts with a clearly defined build sheet with no options other than six speed or automatic. Colors are limited to no more than three. I would prefer two colors -- White with Black Wheels and Blue with Yellow Wheels. The cars are built in batches. This is critical because we are deviating from a standard Camaro build. By batching them the line can run with a high level of efficiency as color is the only option.

Engine Choice -- If the LS7 is available at a reasonable price we use the LS7, although a LS3 with a GMPP cam and tune would be good too. My bottom line is we need 500 NA at the crank, or more What I really want is 500 NA at the rear wheels. That means 550 or 560 at the crank. That also means we need heads to go with the cam on the upgraded LS3. I am not sure what it would take on the LS7. I'll accept 500 at the crank, but I would be a drooling idiot with 500 at the rear wheels. LS7 or LS3 doesn't matter as long as we are in the RWHP minimum range of 430.

Weight Reduction -- Everywhere we can from reduced spray in sound insulation - cloth non-power seats - fascia - console - wheels - brakes - exhaust - can you use less paint? No sun roof. No back up camera. The focus is on performance. Wait a minute. Can we replace the side view mirrors with a video display for less wind resistance and the same or less weight?

Wheels and Tires -- You can probably guess 19x10.5 lightweight wheels with 305/30/19s

Gearing -- The smaller rolling diameter wheel and tire package address the gear change, but we'll ask the engineers at Chevrolet to fine tune the gear box ratios for optimal performance

Brakes -- CTS-V / ZL1 calipers with the of the shelf GMPP Brembo two piece front rotors to improve breaking and reduce weight and don't forget the brake ducts

Exhaust -- Titanium borrowed from the Vette. A little more aggressive in tone. This ain't no panty waist machine. We want an edge to it.

Hood and Fascias -- Keep it simple, clean and light. If it doesn't reduce the drag coefficient or add down force it doesn't go on the car. Cold air induction is critical.

Thermal Management -- The LS engine do not like heat and they are furnaces. Lose the sound insulation above the plenum. Lose the engine cover. Lose the hood blanket. Add heat extractors. Coat the cast iron manifold inside and out to reduce heat transfer. Add oil and PS coolers. Can we increase the oil capacity with a new pan? Maybe add a few baffles? Don't forget the diff cooler.

Driveline -- We want the revised ZL1 drive-line since we plan on abusing, err driving this one Change out the lube in the OE CV joints so it doesn't liquefy when running hard laps to a higher temp lube.

Suspension -- Forget the typical OE conservative understeer bias. We prefer axx happier The suspension has to be Pedders Supercars with independent bound and rebound adjustment. We'll address the adjustable ride height with special locking rings that require a special bow-tie track spanner to unlock them. The special bow-tie track spanner is for off road use only In addition to the new revised sub-frame bushes that started in January, we want to add Pedders sub-frame inserts. We'll also use the EP6579 full face radius bush inserts. Pedders extended range alignment bolts are direct replacements for the OE bolts and provide a greater range of adjustment to suit the use of the car. These can all be integrated into the line process. A little trickier are the Toe link bushes. I guess GM will have to ship the OE arm to Pedders and we'll return them with our bushes. Allow me to compliment GM on the ZETA II. The arms are good to go from the factory. They do not need replacement. The arms just need a little assist from Pedders

Steering Wheel -- I love the CTS-V wheel. The ZL1 is close to the CTS-V. We want a wheel with Alcantara for grip. I could care less about the controls on the wheel.

Gauges -- We need real gauges and not simulations of gauges. The oil temp must read from an oil temp sensor with an accurate reading.

Warranty -- We are asking for a lot of performance at the best possible price. I for one would be happy with a 24 month / 36k bumper to bumper. I don't expect GM to cover what I am asking to be built for 100,000 miles on the drive-line. There is a balance to be reached. Deliver me a car that works well. Allow me to beat on it, not run it into the ground, but use it as it was intended to be used for a reasonable period of time. i.e. I was running laps at Harris Hiils. My CV joint failed. Cover my CV joint and allow me to be honest. In exchange I'll take a shorter warranty period.

We have a Z28 that is a very different car from my wife's ZL1. It should sell well and compliment SS and ZL1 sales, b ut that is just my opinion.
YOUR WIFE GETS THE ZL1?!
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:52 PM   #201
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OK... to Pete....

But

Need more colors........ but I Think I'm in on all the rest... what about AC? radio... etc???

you leaving all that in?

and I noticed you say to go with adj coilovers.... No Mag ride for the Z28???



and Ti exhaust??? really? seems a little over kill and expensive...

What do you think a Z28 price point should be??? and no... not what you would be willing to pay for it...

There is a place for mag ride, but not on MY Z28 Mag ride is too integrated into stability control systems. It wants to drive the car and in many cases will drive the car better than you and I. That said, I want to drive the way I want to drive and that is what a Z28 is to me. A driver's car.

You can save pounds with a titanium exhuast. Saving pounds on exhuast is cheap weight savings even with titanium compared to any body panel, sub-frame or arm changes.

No HVAC turns the Z28 into a club racer and limits volume to a handul of cars. That means the HVAC and radio stay.

I knew colors would be a point of contention. If we only offer the Z28 in two colors we create a stronger identity for the Z28. Two special colors. Available only on the Z28.

Price point..... $45,999.99
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:53 PM   #202
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There is a place for mag ride, but not on MY Z28 Mag ride is too integrated into stability control systems. It wants to drive the car and in many cases will drive the car better than you and I. That said, I want to drive the way I want to drive and that is what a Z28 is to me. A driver's car.

You can save pounds with a titanium exhuast. Saving pounds on exhuast is cheap weight savings even with titanium compared to any body panel, sub-frame or arm changes.

No HVAC turns the Z28 into a club racer and limits volume to a handul of cars. That means the HVAC and radio stay.

I knew colors would be a point of contention. If we only offer the Z28 in two colors we create a stronger identity for the Z28. Two special colors. Available only on the Z28.

Price point..... $45,999.99
Ok I get the logic on all of the above... still gonna argue that the Z28 will be a higher volume car and as such need more color options. Not to open the "what do you call it" debate, but I still think that the name itself communicates a widely available and affordable sports/muscle car...

So I'm thinking the price needs to be below 40K...

Having said that... I'm always amazed at how expensive weight reduction is... I think that is going to be the most difficult hurdle to clear... I like the idea of stripped down.. but I don't know if the price point will support that amount of real weight reduction...

I say go with as many suspension components as possible. Remove the fluff, leather power seats (I get the AC and Radio requirement and I agree it should be there.) very simple stereo with less speakers and so on... and try like hell to keep the price down. If, the buyer wants to pay the aftermarket for lighter stuff... then so be it... we've pretty much proven that Camaro owners are spending large sums of money right now...
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:05 PM   #203
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Ok I get the logic on all of the above... still gonna argue that the Z28 will be a higher volume car and as such need more color options. Not to open the "what do you call it" debate, but I still think that the name itself communicates a widely available and affordable sports/muscle car...

So I'm thinking the price needs to be below 40K...

Having said that... I'm always amazed at how expensive weight reduction is... I think that is going to be the most difficult hurdle to clear... I like the idea of stripped down.. but I don't know if the price point will support that amount of real weight reduction...

I say go with as many suspension components as possible. Remove the fluff, leather power seats (I get the AC and Radio requirement and I agree it should be there.) very simple stereo with less speakers and so on... and try like hell to keep the price down. If, the buyer wants to pay the aftermarket for lighter stuff... then so be it... we've pretty much proven that Camaro owners are spending large sums of money right now...
The weight reduction I propposed comes with a minimal price tag. Most is just leaving stuff out. i.e. hood blanket, not spraying sound insulation, leaving out the trunck treatment. Better calipers, rotors, wheels, drive-line and $500 RWHP cost money. What is the currect SS base $31K? loaded 36K.

I am guessing we have real money costs to build the Z28 of 5 to 7K. that brings us to $38K, but Chevrolet has to make money on it so we double it $31k + $14K = $45K. Maybe they can build it for less, but I would be shocked if it were less than $40K.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:18 PM   #204
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The weight reduction I propposed comes with a minimal price tag. Most is just leaving stuff out. i.e. hood blanket, not spraying sound insulation, leaving out the trunck treatment. Better calipers, rotors, wheels, drive-line and $500 RWHP cost money. What is the currect SS base $31K? loaded 36K.

I am guessing we have real money costs to build the Z28 of 5 to 7K. that brings us to $38K, but Chevrolet has to make money on it so we double it $31k + $14K = $45K. Maybe they can build it for less, but I would be shocked if it were less than $40K.
I can dig it...

Can't wait to see if/when/what
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:27 PM   #205
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Here is my run at a build-able Z28 from Chevrolet. It starts with a clearly defined build sheet with no options other than six speed or automatic. Colors are limited to no more than three. I would prefer two colors -- White with Black Wheels and Blue with Yellow Wheels. The cars are built in batches. This is critical because we are deviating from a standard Camaro build. By batching them the line can run with a high level of efficiency as color is the only option.

Engine Choice -- If the LS7 is available at a reasonable price we use the LS7, although a LS3 with a GMPP cam and tune would be good too. My bottom line is we need 500 NA at the crank, or more What I really want is 500 NA at the rear wheels. That means 550 or 560 at the crank. That also means we need heads to go with the cam on the upgraded LS3. I am not sure what it would take on the LS7. I'll accept 500 at the crank, but I would be a drooling idiot with 500 at the rear wheels. LS7 or LS3 doesn't matter as long as we are in the RWHP minimum range of 430. Stop it. If you want 560 crank you GET the LSA. Period. You can't just be making stuff up. You either get the LS7 and it's price tag or you get something less. You don't get more or GM would have already done that. And it took every bit of Titanium to get the LS7 where it is. More isn't there without forced induction.

Weight Reduction -- Everywhere we can from reduced spray in sound insulation - cloth non-power seats - fascia - console - wheels - brakes - exhaust - can you use less paint? No sun roof. No back up camera. This will be a legal requirement, sorry. Blame Uncle Sam. The focus is on performance. Wait a minute. Can we replace the side view mirrors with a video display for less wind resistance and the same or less weight? It's been demonstrated, but mirrors are the least of your problems with the Camaro for aero. And you need a NAV screen somewhere legal to be able to see it. Cost and mass prohibitive for negligable mass savings if not a mass hit. If you are going after aero, you need a comprehensive package of many parts, likely including underbody panels.

Wheels and Tires -- You can probably guess 19x10.5 lightweight wheels with 305/30/19s

Gearing -- The smaller rolling diameter wheel and tire package address the gear change, but we'll ask the engineers at Chevrolet to fine tune the gear box ratios for optimal performance

Brakes -- CTS-V / ZL1 calipers with the of the shelf GMPP Brembo two piece front rotors to improve breaking and reduce weight and don't forget the brake ducts

Exhaust -- Titanium borrowed from the Vette. A little more aggressive in tone. This ain't no panty waist machine. We want an edge to it. Don't disagree, but it's over $1,000 for about 30 pounds. There is a reason it's not on the C6 Z06. I might spend my grand elsewhere.

Hood and Fascias -- Keep it simple, clean and light. If it doesn't reduce the drag coefficient or add down force it doesn't go on the car. Cold air induction is critical.

Thermal Management -- The LS engine do not like heat and they are furnaces. Lose the sound insulation above the plenum. Lose the engine cover. Lose the hood blanket. Add heat extractors. Coat the cast iron manifold inside and out to reduce heat transfer. Add oil and PS coolers. Can we increase the oil capacity with a new pan? Maybe add a few baffles? Don't forget the diff cooler.

Driveline -- We want the revised ZL1 drive-line since we plan on abusing, err driving this one Change out the lube in the OE CV joints so it doesn't liquefy when running hard laps to a higher temp lube.

Suspension -- Forget the typical OE conservative understeer bias. We prefer axx happier The suspension has to be Pedders Supercars with independent bound and rebound adjustment. We'll address the adjustable ride height with special locking rings that require a special bow-tie track spanner to unlock them. The special bow-tie track spanner is for off road use only In addition to the new revised sub-frame bushes that started in January, we want to add Pedders sub-frame inserts. We'll also use the EP6579 full face radius bush inserts. Pedders extended range alignment bolts are direct replacements for the OE bolts and provide a greater range of adjustment to suit the use of the car. These can all be integrated into the line process. A little trickier are the Toe link bushes. I guess GM will have to ship the OE arm to Pedders and we'll return them with our bushes. Allow me to compliment GM on the ZETA II. The arms are good to go from the factory. They do not need replacement. The arms just need a little assist from Pedders

Steering Wheel -- I love the CTS-V wheel. The ZL1 is close to the CTS-V. We want a wheel with Alcantara for grip. I could care less about the controls on the wheel.

Gauges -- We need real gauges and not simulations of gauges. The oil temp must read from an oil temp sensor with an accurate reading.

Warranty -- We are asking for a lot of performance at the best possible price. I for one would be happy with a 24 month / 36k bumper to bumper. I don't expect GM to cover what I am asking to be built for 100,000 miles on the drive-line. There is a balance to be reached. Deliver me a car that works well. Allow me to beat on it, not run it into the ground, but use it as it was intended to be used for a reasonable period of time. i.e. I was running laps at Harris Hiils. My CV joint failed. Cover my CV joint and allow me to be honest. In exchange I'll take a shorter warranty period. If GM were to do it, you wouldn't get a reduced warranty. That's why from GM you have powertrain requirements for durability that MUST and WILL be met. That was one of the great things about the Gen 1 Z28.............it carried the standard GM warranty

We have a Z28 that is a very different car from my wife's ZL1. It should sell well and compliment SS and ZL1 sales, b ut that is just my opinion.
Keep in mind to sell in high numbers it has to be reasonable to drive on the road. Not quiet or elegant, but you have to have A/C, a decent radio and power steering and brakes, etc. It won't sell if you restrict too much. Many of the nice options were available on every Z28 ever made including the Gen 1 car (other than A/C). And GM has made it public that their safety strategy includes Active Handling and OnStar. And GM would not likely sell the car with less than a 4 or 5 star safety rating, meaning you get the full complement of airbags. I'd love an SSX, but I'm not sure that gets you the most volume or the most profitable package.

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Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
Ok I get the logic on all of the above... still gonna argue that the Z28 will be a higher volume car and as such need more color options. Not to open the "what do you call it" debate, but I still think that the name itself communicates a widely available and affordable sports/muscle car...

So I'm thinking the price needs to be below 40K... HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

Having said that... I'm always amazed at how expensive weight reduction is... I think that is going to be the most difficult hurdle to clear... I like the idea of stripped down.. but I don't know if the price point will support that amount of real weight reduction...

No Z28 was lightweighted. Why start here. I go back to small car envy

I say go with as many suspension components as possible. Remove the fluff, leather power seats (I get the AC and Radio requirement and I agree it should be there.) very simple stereo with less speakers and so on... and try like hell to keep the price down. If, the buyer wants to pay the aftermarket for lighter stuff... then so be it... we've pretty much proven that Camaro owners are spending large sums of money right now...
But why force them to the aftermarket if GM can make money on those features. That would make a much better business case for a car like this.
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:25 PM   #206
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Keep in mind to sell in high numbers it has to be reasonable to drive on the road. Not quiet or elegant, but you have to have A/C, a decent radio and power steering and brakes, etc. It won't sell if you restrict too much. Many of the nice options were available on every Z28 ever made including the Gen 1 car (other than A/C). And GM has made it public that their safety strategy includes Active Handling and OnStar. And GM would not likely sell the car with less than a 4 or 5 star safety rating, meaning you get the full complement of airbags. I'd love an SSX, but I'm not sure that gets you the most volume or the most profitable package.



But why force them to the aftermarket if GM can make money on those features. That would make a much better business case for a car like this.
Is #3 having a bad day

So we take the LS7 with a full warranty. Damn I hate when that happens I'll take the weight savings on the exhuast along with the bill.

So when can I place my order for Serial # 427
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:25 PM   #207
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Don't limit the colors and make all stripes options. I need my Victory Red with white stripes.

Let the buyer decide what options should be on the car. If someone wants a stripped race car, order it that way.

Pete, I'll get my #28 before you get your #427.
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:37 PM   #208
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Pete, I'll get my #28 before you get your #427.




































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Old 06-06-2011, 05:46 PM   #209
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Wow, I love it guys!
I go away for a little while and we are in it up to our necks. Hey Number 3 I think the excitement is back!!!
Pete I'm impressed with what you've put together. A stout 427, bulletproof drivetrain, brakes from h**l, wheel/tire combo for grip/less unsprung weight and a track-like suspension. If we can get the pricepoint $42K - $43K I think we're there. And, I fully agree, I want a decent stereo and living in the south you gotta have AC. But for those hardcore guys this can be stripped, by them. Go ahead and allow for some options, but Pete I'm with you keep it simple. As for colors and such this car has to be easily recognized as a different and special Camaro, Yeah a Z28.
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Old 06-06-2011, 06:01 PM   #210
Number 3
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Drives: '16 ATS 2.0T & '14 Chevrolet SS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Is #3 having a bad day

So we take the LS7 with a full warranty. Damn I hate when that happens I'll take the weight savings on the exhuast along with the bill.

So when can I place my order for Serial # 427
The LS7 enjoys a full powertrain warranty in the Corvette, why would you expect any less in this mythical creation we are concocting via internet conjecture?
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700 hp z/28 in 2014, the greatest camaro

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