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Old 07-12-2011, 02:59 PM   #551
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Super Z28 - all the track toys discussed & the LS7
Z28 - all the track toys discussed & and an LS3 of some sort

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Old 07-12-2011, 03:00 PM   #552
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The LS7 has probably the same life expectancy as the 5Gen, itmakes sense to marry them.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:28 PM   #553
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The sticker shock of an LS7 powered Camaro would bring many of you back to reality.

Plus, the LS7 was designed for the Z06. Your not going to just plop it in a much heavier vehicle and be happy with the results. To do it right you would need to optimize the cam and torque curve for the heavier Camaro. Which leads to why the LSA was chosen over it in the first place for the Camaro performance version.... later named the ZL1. The supercharged grunt is more matched to get that weight moving vs a high revving motor.

If you remember the C5 Z06's. They screamed with the LS6. I owned two of them and they were a riot to drive. Then they put that same LS6 in the tank of a CTS-V. When I drove one of those, I couldn't believe it was the same engine. Pulled hard at the very top of the revs, but the weight just killed the low end. Had no where near the excitement of that engine in the lightweight Z06. Fast forward to the next gen CTS-V.... and do you see the current Z06 engine in that car. No. They got smart and went supercharged with a better torque curve to match the weight... and the CTS-V is now an out of the park hit. That's from engineering an ideal powertrain, instead of grabbing something off the parts shelf.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:05 PM   #554
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The sticker shock of an LS7 powered Camaro would bring many of you back to reality.

Plus, the LS7 was designed for the Z06. Your not going to just plop it in a much heavier vehicle and be happy with the results. To do it right you would need to optimize the cam and torque curve for the heavier Camaro. Which leads to why the LSA was chosen over it in the first place for the Camaro performance version.... later named the ZL1. The supercharged grunt is more matched to get that weight moving vs a high revving motor.

If you remember the C5 Z06's. They screamed with the LS6. I owned two of them and they were a riot to drive. Then they put that same LS6 in the tank of a CTS-V. When I drove one of those, I couldn't believe it was the same engine. Pulled hard at the very top of the revs, but the weight just killed the low end. Had no where near the excitement of that engine in the lightweight Z06. Fast forward to the next gen CTS-V.... and do you see the current Z06 engine in that car. No. They got smart and went supercharged with a better torque curve to match the weight... and the CTS-V is now an out of the park hit. That's from engineering an ideal powertrain, instead of grabbing something off the parts shelf.
The LS7 revs for a track type design (think finesse) we're discussing. The ZL1'is the sledge hammer.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:10 PM   #555
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A Gen-1 CTS-V weighs about the same as a Gen-5 Camaro. But comparing an LS6 to an LS7 is like comparing an LS7 to an LS9...100 hp and an equal amount of TORQUE...

I have experience with an LPE-prepped C5 TT LS6...which eventually was replaced with an LPE-prepped LS7. The LS7 with 540 rwhp turned better times in all disciplines than the 597 rwhp TT LS6...something called "heat-soak" took over the TT, and that 150 lb. on the nose was very discernible...

Sound familiar?
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:13 PM   #556
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Mac, would you agree that, regardless, a production-ready engine MUST be used in a Gen-5 ZEE?

If yes, your choices are few...LS3...LS7...LSA...LS9...at this time...and NO Gen-5 V8 for Camaro till after the Vette gets it, which is easily a year away, and then likely a year after that...
A Z28 might not wait a year or so to get the new Gen V V8.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:15 PM   #557
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Gee, Pete, why wouldn't they?! This IS, after all, the New GM...

With regard the LS7 usage in a "Z/28", I bet you a Tim Horton donut (your choice) MORE LS7s would be built for a sub-$50 Camaro than ever were used in north-of-$70 Vettes...

I'd taket that bet.....................unless a Tim Horton's donut is gambling slang for $1,000.

The original C6 Z06 volumes were up to 1/3 of total prodcution or about 10,000 units per year. So when you say, "ever" do you mean total Z06 production? or highest year of production?

Nowhere near that right now, of course. But that would be a benefit of using the LS7 here. It would get back to production volumes.

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But to use the LSA ZL1 driveline validation that same drive line would have to be in the Z/28 correct?
If you put a lower output engine of the same family in front of the same transmission, driveshaft, axles etc. it can reduce the overall cost to validate the product. However, it does not eliminate the need to validate. You would still have a ton of development time, calibration time, etc.

It is less, but far from ZERO.

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Again...starting with an LS-contented interior, your friend Number 3's careful use of seam-sealer/mastic/insulation/underlay etc. etc., dropping the dry-sump tank from the LS7, using forged wheels (19s??) and lighter non-run-flat tires will at least offset the HD Tremec/HD diff/bigger brakes/HD bars. The springs, as per Pete, if not MR, are a wash, as are the higher durometer bushings throughout...

An LS7 "Z/28" for the final Curb Weight of a 1SS...3849...or less...as per the power-to-weight calculations mentioned above.
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People you know, will driving GenV smallblocks on the street, two years from now. I can't imagine GM keeping the GenIV LS7 around by then.
It's just a low volume hand built engine. I don't know the plans on this one, but as long as the engine is emissions compliant or the year, not sure why they couldn't continue...........................it's just that it would remain a hand built engine at Wixom ............. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Again...... If the LS7 is really on its way out than none of this matters! That is why I am trying to look at all the options for a Z/28 (also GM's side).
Keep looking

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When you start making changes to stock wheels and such does the car have to be re-certified in the crash test area as well as normal validation procedures?
It depends. If you change ride height you would have to re do side impact testing as just one example as that would position the occupant lower than what you previously tested to.

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From what I have read the slightly lowered versions of that other brand muscle car did not require crash tests. My guess is that a small change in wheel diameter would not require more crash testing. Wheel validation yes, but I don't think crash test. Perhaps #3 can give us an idea of the ride height variation allowed in crash tests.
Like I said above, it depends on what you do. Bigger wheels with smaller rim to ground clearance need to be looked at even if you maintain ride height. Change ride height and you have to confirm a bunch of other things.

As we often say, the devil is in the details.

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Yes...which the ZL1 validation will accomplish...

BTW, if Wixom is viable building LS7s in the realitively paultry numbers they've enjoyed with Corvette, does it make sense to continue if volumes ballooned to 3 or 4 or 5 TIMES as many units as might be the case with a Laguna Seca-seeking and -priced Z/28?

And there IS "value" in "shared costs"...
You won't be getting 3, 4 or 5 times volume. For starters, the hand built line has a maximum capacity. I don't know what that is, but it isn't 30,000 to 50,000 engines per year.

Also by your math, are you assuming 30 to 50,000 Z28s with LS7 power? That's 30 to 50% of annual sales. That's pretty hefty considering the car you wan't to compete with sold 4,000.

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The sticker shock of an LS7 powered Camaro would bring many of you back to reality.

Plus, the LS7 was designed for the Z06. Your not going to just plop it in a much heavier vehicle and be happy with the results. To do it right you would need to optimize the cam and torque curve for the heavier Camaro. Which leads to why the LSA was chosen over it in the first place for the Camaro performance version.... later named the ZL1. The supercharged grunt is more matched to get that weight moving vs a high revving motor.

If you remember the C5 Z06's. They screamed with the LS6. I owned two of them and they were a riot to drive. Then they put that same LS6 in the tank of a CTS-V. When I drove one of those, I couldn't believe it was the same engine. Pulled hard at the very top of the revs, but the weight just killed the low end. Had no where near the excitement of that engine in the lightweight Z06. Fast forward to the next gen CTS-V.... and do you see the current Z06 engine in that car. No. They got smart and went supercharged with a better torque curve to match the weight... and the CTS-V is now an out of the park hit. That's from engineering an ideal powertrain, instead of grabbing something off the parts shelf.
Good addition to the discussion. BTW, I don't remember the 400 HP in the early CTS-V as being bad at all. The wheel hop on the other hand...................:(
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:26 PM   #558
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Number 3, we'll find out the depth of our relationship @ Woodward this August... You DID say the first Michelob was "on you", didn't you?! The 2nd and 3rd...waiting for you!

Current Z06 vs. potential Z/28...and I predict 10,000+ LS7 ZEEs (which is several times current Z06 volume). Ford is "constrained" (their word) to a total of less than 5,000...4,000 "Base" and 750 LSs, according to "plan".

BTW, 1969 ZEE sales totalled 20,302 units. '69 BOSS 302 = less than 2,000...'70 BOSS 302 = 7,000

"If you build it, they will come..."

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-12-2011 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:41 PM   #559
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Heat soak so I moved to Texas where it is 100 degrees everyday since my move but it is sunny
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:44 PM   #560
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Pete, you mentioned heat-soak in your Pedder's S/C Camaro...it's WORSE with TT...and the Shelby just may find that out...
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:48 PM   #561
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Pete, you mentioned heat-soak in your Pedder's S/C Camaro...it's WORSE with TT...
Yep, we need a functional heat extractor hood on our Z/28 along with ambient air feed. I am not looking for ram air or anything like that, but a true external air feed. I wonder if GM would consider coating the inside and outside of the cast exhuast manifolds to help control under hood temps with our LS7?
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:49 PM   #562
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Heat soak so I moved to Texas where it is 100 degrees everyday since my move but it is sunny
over 122 where I'm at. I get heat soaked every day. . .

I prefer an NA car for a track car. period. as for the LS7. . .I don't want it. with the proper tune it would be fine but knowing my luck I'd do something and then have it blow up in my face. ie my 98 camaro leaned out and threw a rod. at least it ran a 12.5002 at 111.9 before it blew. no power adders.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:50 PM   #563
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over 122 where I'm at. I get heat soaked every day. . .
Do you work next to a furnace?
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:53 PM   #564
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The TT-LS6 used ACP's carbon fiber World Challenge double vented hood...STILL an issue for it. Heat wrapped everything in sight...STILL an issue...double-coated headers/exhaust...STILL an issue...on a 75 degree day! Desert SouthWest? Forget it...Firebird, Laguna Seca, LVMS...you'd think the thing would MELT! Easy 100 hp drop-off...
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:28 PM   #565
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Number 3, we'll find out the depth of our relationship @ Woodward this August... You DID say the first Michelob was "on you", didn't you?! The 2nd and 3rd...waiting for you!

Current Z06 vs. potential Z/28...and I predict 10,000+ LS7 ZEEs (which is several times current Z06 volume). Ford is "constrained" (their word) to a total of less than 5,000...4,000 "Base" and 750 LSs, according to "plan".

BTW, 1969 ZEE sales totalled 20,302 units. '69 BOSS 302 = less than 2,000...'70 BOSS 302 = 7,000

"If you build it, they will come..."
10,000 would be a reasonable volume (opinion) out of Wixom, espcially considering the current Corvette volume :(

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Heat soak so I moved to Texas where it is 100 degrees everyday since my move but it is sunny
Didn't you watch any cowboy movies growing up? LOL

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The TT-LS6 used ACP's carbon fiber World Challenge double vented hood...STILL an issue for it. Heat wrapped everything in sight...STILL an issue...double-coated headers/exhaust...STILL an issue...on a 75 degree day! Desert SouthWest? Forget it...Firebird, Laguna Seca, LVMS...you'd think the thing would MELT! Easy 100 hp drop-off...
Heat is a HP killer...........and ultimately and engine killer.
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:58 PM   #566
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Might have to add employees. That should push the unemployment % in the right direction. So building the Z28 is obviously the right thing to do.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:35 PM   #567
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Oh, sorry, is this mean?






I put that up a while back.......................thought it, ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, appropriate.
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:37 PM   #568
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If you put a lower output engine of the same family in front of the same transmission, driveshaft, axles etc. it can reduce the overall cost to validate the product. However, it does not eliminate the need to validate. You would still have a ton of development time, calibration time, etc.
It is less, but far from ZERO.

I was afraid of that



It's just a low volume hand built engine. I don't know the plans on this one, but as long as the engine is emissions compliant or the year, not sure why they couldn't continue.

I thought it was stated that the LS7 was near the end of its life cycle? Probably just a rumor I read.... oops... my bad


Keep looking

Oh I will.... I really want a Z/28. Just trying to figure out if the business case supports a LS7 or not



It depends. If you change ride height you would have to re do side impact testing as just one example as that would position the occupant lower than what you previously tested to.

Well I would assume the Z/28 would be lower than a SS.... Soooo more validation costs there... booooo


Like I said above, it depends on what you do. Bigger wheels with smaller rim to ground clearance need to be looked at even if you maintain ride height. Change ride height and you have to confirm a bunch of other things.

As we often say, the devil is in the details.

I dont work for GM but Im really not liking all the details yall have to go buy

I am learning a lot though.....
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Heat soak so I moved to Texas where it is 100 degrees everyday since my move but it is sunny
Not the best conditions for testing eh? Should have just moved to yuma.... at least then you would be close to the proving grounds!


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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
I wonder if GM would consider coating the inside and outside of the cast exhuast manifolds to help control under hood temps with our LS7?
Why do you keep adding to the cost of our Z/28.......

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Might have to add employees. That should push the unemployment % in the right direction. So building the Z28 is obviously the right thing to do.
Im starting to Zee the blindness in your eyes.....
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:28 PM   #569
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YeZ love iZ blind!

Yes, Anything I can do to push the idea of a 5Gen Z28 into the realm of possibility I'll continue to do it. I'm trying to be as reasonable as warranted, but I want one!
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:30 PM   #570
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YeZ love iZ blind!
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:31 PM   #571
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Oh, sorry, is this mean?






I put that up a while back.......................thought it, ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, appropriate.
Well played Dr. Zevil...... well played
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:15 AM   #572
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Oh, sorry, is this mean?






I put that up a while back.......................thought it, ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, appropriate.
Grr... Yes - that's mean...

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Well played Dr. Zevil...... well played
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:45 AM   #573
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Old 07-13-2011, 12:30 PM   #574
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It just occurred to me there is HISTORICAL PRECEDENCE for Camaro receiving a mass-marketed engine ahead of Corvette. Anyone remember?

Yup...1967, the Camaro's inaugural year. The soon-to-be mass-marketed engine? The 350. Fully TWO MODEL YEARS ahead of Corvette.

GEN-5 V8 Camaro-bound?

Z/28-bound?

Stay tuned...
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:10 PM   #575
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It just occurred to me there is HISTORICAL PRECEDENCE for Camaro receiving a mass-marketed engine ahead of Corvette. Anyone remember?

Yup...1967, the Camaro's inaugural year. The soon-to-be mass-marketed engine? The 350. Fully TWO MODEL YEARS ahead of Corvette.

GEN-5 V8 Camaro-bound?

Z/28-bound?

Stay tuned...
But that 350 was the standard engine not a serious performance engine, it what ended up as the 300 hp/350 that powered everything from Novas, Chevelles, Caprices, BASE Corvette, Impalas, Wagons......... There might be a pedestrian version of the Gen V that could be releasted in the Camaro 1st, but the hottest Corvette engine does not end up in a Camaro 1st. Usually in performance engines the Corvette gets the best and that engine rarely ends up in any other models, except after the Corvette has a better engine to surplant it. I still say that a hotter LS3 in the Z/28 and as the base Corvette engine, 440 - 460 HP with 500 highter RPM range than the current LS3.
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