Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
JDP Motorsports
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-10-2011, 08:54 PM   #494
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,616
Or the biz case can be made on the keeping the Camaro in first place sales. At almost 200,000 sold it's obvious that excitement must be maintained, but how? Ask Ford what did they do since sales were slowing? Add excitement, and they have. However it is more difficult to gain against a strong and leading competitor than to maintain your position. Special paint colors are cool, but adding real excitement to a line is adding more substance. Look at the press Ford got with and is still getting with the Boss. Again they are running up hill against the Camaro. (I'm sure a lot of pent up demand is still being filled because if the years the Camaro was missing). To again maintain momentum there must be more and more added to the line. I would guess the Camaro is paid for, so doing niche development must be possible, hence the ZL1. Ride the ZL1 wave, but have the next WOW item ready to follow. Fortunately the Camaro has more available to draw from...Enter the Z28. Playing around we have pulled together a possible "almost" (in the car biz) ready to go scenario for the Z28. Be "proactive" (I know it's hard for a BIG company to do). Keep your lead in the pony car wars. Keep engineering excitement, not just paint colors.

if this is incoherent I typed it on my iPhone.

I'm not saying don't turn a profit, you would. I remember reading the SS is more profitable by far than the V6. And the fact that the sales were SS heavy at first added to the profits. Another point would be; back to the pent up demand that was obviously heavy towards the V8 enthusiast. All businesses know their strength lies in getting their customer base to buy again. How do you do that? Just look to the electronics biz. They keep upgrading their systems to drive the consumer to purchase the next better thing. So keep it coming or sales will get stale.

BTW, I'd really like to buy a new 5Gen Z28, jus' to let ya know.

BTW, this thread has by far the most replies and should soon have the most views in the Z28 section. The title and content seem to be affecting quite a few.
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:16 PM   #495
ShnOmac


 
ShnOmac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Here is one of the conundrums of the Z28 discussion................how track worthy versus how road worthy should the car be.

Some on here want a "true" track car. Meaning they could care less who drives it on the street, who might actually want to drive it to work once in a while and who just wants one but would never take it on the track.

There are reasons why GM and the other OEMs don't just drop a car the way you and I can using Pedders or simply cutting a 1/4 turn of spring.

One the car will ride noticeably worse. So what you say. Well for one there isn't a J D Power survey for a specific model. It could make the Camaro numbers look worse for ride.

Second there are things that GM would like your Camaro to be able to drive over, through and about without dragging the bottom bits of your car.

Third, the car is much more likely to bottom out on large pot holes, rail road crossings, etc. This increases the loads the body and structural elements see and in really bad cases, can damage the car. GM doesn't want your car damaged on these things so ride height is higher than what you can do in the aftermarket.

And many of you still say "so what?".

Well the issue is Many, Most, Some and Few. Many of us want a Z28. Most of us want it to be a more track capable car. Some of us are willing to make trade offs for daily use in order to have better track performance. And a few would be willing to simply have a car that was reasonable to just drive to the track to avoid trailering it.

Who should GM make the Z28 for? The Many? or the Few? The few say "ME!!!!" But there in lies the problem Timmy, GM needs a business case and a cost. And few doesn't usually calculate out to a good business case "IF" you are hoping to be cheaper than a ZL1 and in the ball park of a Boss.

MR does two awesome things.

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actualy know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramtically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and agressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. But here is the catch. How "MANY" will have the time and ability to go out and adjust their cars to this level? How many of you know how to do this, can do this and will go to the track and make these adjustments and then readjust them to more civil settings for the drive home? My suspicion is this falls into the few, not even some.

So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

And this is what the Boss has. The ability to "set up" the car for Laguna Seca and get optimal results. It would be interesting to see the difference if they just ran it bone stock. But I suspect this is behind the Laguna Seca performance numbers touted for the Boss.

All I can say is that I have a Ducati 916, the track tool of choice of the mid and late 90's. Sadly it is now ART as even lowly 600's have long passed it by. It has all of the adjustability in the suspension you can get from Pedders. I've not touched in 15 years. For me, it is simply what it can do (could do in it's day) rather than what I can make it do.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a reallllly good experience at the track.

So for you, is there value in having a car with potential for greatness that you will never realize? I say, yes. That is what the Ducati does for me. It's not what I can do, it's what the machine is capable of.

But if you are GM, do you address the many? The many will want a car you can drive comfortably to the track, turn a switch to comp mode and go blast around the track and compare your own times as you progress your driving skills. A ZL1 will probably do this verrrrrrrrrry well.

Or if you are GM, do you address the few? The few will have their cars at the track every weekend they can. They will not only want to do their best, they'll want to beat the best while they are there. But for selling cars, you will depend soley on those that want to buy the car for what it can do, but probably what they themselves will never or rarely do................and be willing to make the tradeoffs for driving it to work.

These are the big questions.
Once again you have outdone yourself..... Thank you for taking the time to point out things that most people do not think of. I am going to digest your post for a few and then I will reply with my thoughts and opinions!
ShnOmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:19 PM   #496
TLSTWIN
Romans10:9-13
 
TLSTWIN's Avatar
 
Drives: /\yes, this is me/\
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermilion, Ohio
Posts: 3,934
WELL SAID!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Here is one of the conundrums of the Z28 discussion................how track worthy versus how road worthy should the car be.

Some on here want a "true" track car. Meaning they could care less who drives it on the street, who might actually want to drive it to work once in a while and who just wants one but would never take it on the track.

There are reasons why GM and the other OEMs don't just drop a car the way you and I can using Pedders or simply cutting a 1/4 turn of spring.

One the car will ride noticeably worse. So what you say. Well for one there isn't a J D Power survey for a specific model. It could make the Camaro numbers look worse for ride.

Second there are things that GM would like your Camaro to be able to drive over, through and about without dragging the bottom bits of your car.

Third, the car is much more likely to bottom out on large pot holes, rail road crossings, etc. This increases the loads the body and structural elements see and in really bad cases, can damage the car. GM doesn't want your car damaged on these things so ride height is higher than what you can do in the aftermarket.

And many of you still say "so what?".

Well the issue is Many, Most, Some and Few. Many of us want a Z28. Most of us want it to be a more track capable car. Some of us are willing to make trade offs for daily use in order to have better track performance. And a few would be willing to simply have a car that was reasonable to just drive to the track to avoid trailering it.

Who should GM make the Z28 for? The Many? or the Few? The few say "ME!!!!" But there in lies the problem Timmy, GM needs a business case and a cost. And few doesn't usually calculate out to a good business case "IF" you are hoping to be cheaper than a ZL1 and in the ball park of a Boss.

MR does two awesome things.

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actualy know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramtically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and agressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. But here is the catch. How "MANY" will have the time and ability to go out and adjust their cars to this level? How many of you know how to do this, can do this and will go to the track and make these adjustments and then readjust them to more civil settings for the drive home? My suspicion is this falls into the few, not even some.

So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

And this is what the Boss has. The ability to "set up" the car for Laguna Seca and get optimal results. It would be interesting to see the difference if they just ran it bone stock. But I suspect this is behind the Laguna Seca performance numbers touted for the Boss.

All I can say is that I have a Ducati 916, the track tool of choice of the mid and late 90's. Sadly it is now ART as even lowly 600's have long passed it by. It has all of the adjustability in the suspension you can get from Pedders. I've not touched in 15 years. For me, it is simply what it can do (could do in it's day) rather than what I can make it do.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a reallllly good experience at the track.

So for you, is there value in having a car with potential for greatness that you will never realize? I say, yes. That is what the Ducati does for me. It's not what I can do, it's what the machine is capable of.

But if you are GM, do you address the many? The many will want a car you can drive comfortably to the track, turn a switch to comp mode and go blast around the track and compare your own times as you progress your driving skills. A ZL1 will probably do this verrrrrrrrrry well.

Or if you are GM, do you address the few? The few will have their cars at the track every weekend they can. They will not only want to do their best, they'll want to beat the best while they are there. But for selling cars, you will depend soley on those that want to buy the car for what it can do, but probably what they themselves will never or rarely do................and be willing to make the tradeoffs for driving it to work.

These are the big questions.
OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post
__________________
R.I.P. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373249
Back Street Performance has done a great job with ALL my Performance & Suspension mods, highly recommend them (Rich@BSP) he's in my friends list. https://youtu.be/Lht8sKe1Maw
TLSTWIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:21 PM   #497
ShnOmac


 
ShnOmac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post
Hey..... I said I was digesting it before responding....






ShnOmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:25 PM   #498
TLSTWIN
Romans10:9-13
 
TLSTWIN's Avatar
 
Drives: /\yes, this is me/\
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermilion, Ohio
Posts: 3,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Hey..... I said I was digesting it before responding....






LOL I didn't see your post when I started mine
__________________
R.I.P. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373249
Back Street Performance has done a great job with ALL my Performance & Suspension mods, highly recommend them (Rich@BSP) he's in my friends list. https://youtu.be/Lht8sKe1Maw
TLSTWIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:26 PM   #499
ShnOmac


 
ShnOmac's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PNW
Posts: 13,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
LOL I didn't see your post when I started mine
ShnOmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:29 PM   #500
TLSTWIN
Romans10:9-13
 
TLSTWIN's Avatar
 
Drives: /\yes, this is me/\
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermilion, Ohio
Posts: 3,934
UPGRADE

Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
We hit the track with fluids and driver at 4,180 pounds in the Camaro. Same driver in the Mustang was 290 pounds lighter. Both cars were modified which you all know. We move the battery in the Mustang to the trunk for better balance.
BTW Pete, I am selling my 2500HD on Monday and hopefully doing bushings and coilovers in the near future with Rich
__________________
R.I.P. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373249
Back Street Performance has done a great job with ALL my Performance & Suspension mods, highly recommend them (Rich@BSP) he's in my friends list. https://youtu.be/Lht8sKe1Maw
TLSTWIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:39 PM   #501
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post
Typically those following the Z28 thread are pretty intense which leads me to believe they will read it and the responses, and may even tend to respond themselves.
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 11:05 AM   #502
JusticePete
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 17,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actually know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramatically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and aggressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a really good experience at the track.
My opinion of MR has not changed since my first drive of an HSV in AU and on premium GM performance cars soon to include the ZL1.

For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car.

On the Z28, I think a number of you have expressed interest in a more traditional suspension. Adjustable height suspensions create a nightmare for the MFG with crash testing and actual build. Another factor that has not been mentioned is volume. Using the MR system on BOTH Zs reduces development and production cost. If we have to accept MR on the Z28 to get it built, would it stop anyone from buying it?
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 11:27 AM   #503
Russell James


 
Russell James's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 Drag, #37 TA Stock Car, '15 ILE
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,688
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car.

On the Z28, I think a number of you have expressed interest in a more traditional suspension. Adjustable height suspensions create a nightmare for the MFG with crash testing and actual build. Another factor that has not been mentioned is volume. Using the MR system on BOTH Zs reduces development and production cost. If we have to accept MR on the Z28 to get it built, would it stop anyone from buying it?
1 agree 100%. I have no interest in MR. Just give me a better tuned SS suspension. Fine tune the springs, bars, shocks, bushings... Don't drop it in the weeds. Current SS ride height is fine for me but what needs improving - it pushes like a dump truck, front clunks like a lumbar wagon, rear wheels hop like it's on basketballs.... all that can be really improved with fine tuning. And an engineering group willing to address the rediculous front clunking.

A friend of mine with a Vette with MR had all the shocks start leaking after warranty. Estimate to repair > $4000. No thanks. Not to mention the hit to the cars MSRP.

My thoughts of a Z28 would be a more better SS. Bring over some of the ZL1 improvements, but ditch the costly LSA and MR. When the sticker shock hits from the ZL1, I'd bet there will be quite the interest in something in between the SS and ZL1. Suspension and drivetrain improvements, dual mode exhaust, 3.73s - Vette GS approach. The Z06 and ZR1 and great, but the sticker price kills it for Joe blue collar. Check the sales of those two and the word dismal can be explained by one thing - price.
Russell James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 02:20 PM   #504
LOWDOWN
Downright Upright
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,145
There are two realities, at least, at work here:

1) Can a "Z/28" be anything less, performance-wise, than a BOSS LS? I think "NOT!"

2) To make the "business case" do-able, what content is necessary to achieve 1) above, and at what price, assuming BOSS LS "performance" and number$ as your benchmark?

MANY will pay a premium for a better-balanced, better-handling car, and would be satisfied (if otherwise unknowing...) with only slightly more "go" than a 1SS...which gears alone would likely accomplish.

MOST would want some form of "distinctive appearance" to make them "instantly noticeable". "See what I bought? Its NOT just any ol' Camaro..."

SOME would want demonstrably improved performance/handling/stopping. After all, a "Zee" means something to them.

A FEW would want the "Zee" to be "all that it can be"...ultimate accelerative performance combined with handling/stopping beyond mere Camaros. A "track star hero". The absolute best "handler" available from Camaro...and from GM, in this Class. And those folks will "pay the price" for a well-scienced, Manufacturer-built and -backed version. For this reason alone, they have largely resisted Aftermarket efforts and are NOT yet predisposed to buy a ZL1. "It may be the most powerful, but is it the BEST for MY money?" And their definition of "best" is NOT alone determined by 1/4-mile runs... If it's the best available, at a competitive price, that GM offers, and is truly competitive, in performance and price, "where do I sign?"

Somewhere, on this Forum, "someone" suggested an LS7-engined 1SS with "supporting driveline" (read: brakes/diff/wheels/tires/tranny) was buildable for "low-mid 40s". Add MR (if that is what's required to "show tail" to the BOSS LS), and a grille/extractor hood/tasteful graphics for appearances' sake...voila! $47-and-change like the LS.

Can a ZL1 minus 50 hp (LS7 vs. LSA), minus 200 lb. (ditto, with content restriction), minus $5-7000 MRSP (again, content restricted from a "full load" ZL1) = BOSS Basher?

IS MR MANDATORY for this to happen? Costs/weight involved...

There is no doubt an LS7 in a Camaro will smoke a BOSS in a straight line (at least in my feeble mind). It is apparent the Vette GS has its hands full matching the BOSS LS in any measurement of performance, while using a hand-built dry-sumped Wixom LS3 and enjoying a Curb Weight advantage. A 450+ hp version of that engine would aid the Vette...but the Camaro must carry another 500 lb... The only "guarantee" for a 3800 Camaro to match power-to-weight with the 3631 lb. LS requires the weight disadvantage of the LSA, or the weight-and-handling-neutral addition of an LS7, as these are the only readily-available choices at this time sitting in GM Powertrain's vast arsenal of RPO'd engines...
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 03:04 PM   #505
Z/enVy
 
Drives: Saving for my Z
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1
I've read the whole thread.... took me 3 days. Number 3 seems to have brought up the good points. GM is going to tailor to the many not the few. Alot on here are asking for Coilovers instead of MR, well I can tell you, I will be one of the many who don't think it neccissary to get out and reset suspension. I'm looking for a Z/28 that will out-perform on the street as well as on a track. On the street you can't look at the ricer and say "Hold on I need to pull over and adjust my suspension." Getting out and changing the suspension for every situation, it just seems like too much work for me. I dont plan on taking mine to the track hardly if ever. It will be my DD as well as many other peoples. MR is one thing Ford doesn't have, it seems to me if I was running the program I would want to flaunt that a little bit; So keeping MR off the Z/28 is starting to seem more and more unlikly.

I mentioned above that this Z was going to be my DD. I won't be the only one. So removing ALL the sound proofing? Not a good idea. Manual only? Have you ever tried a commute to houston with a stick? It SUUUUCCCKKS. Plus we are tailoring to the few again. Manual is also hard to drive for those of us who have wrist problems.... I have had 2 z/28s in the past a 78 and an 85, both were automatic and bad as hell. When you got down on it, they chirped the tires going into third. So here is my dream of a Z/28;
All standards (HP/TQ Handling) built to compete with the Boss, not neccissarily blow it out of the water and not geared to be a Boss specific killer.

#1 N/A ; For the many previous stated reasons.

#2 Highly modifiable engine (Bolt-ons, etc.) ; So each gearhead can build it his way if he isn't quite satisfied with the power.

#3 Auto and Man Transmission ; For the many

#4 MR (maybe with opt-out option?); 'cause I'm seeing more and more probability in this happenin'

#5 Heavier duty supporting driveline ; Make it better than ss quality but maybe not quite up to zl1 standards if it will cut some of the cost

#6 A/C & Radio. Texas heat. 'nuff said. (Plus keeping it for the many)

#7 Removing some of the heavy seats and saving on weight without removing base comforts.

This gives everyone a good building block that you can take one step further if you are willing. It's nice enough for average joe, but has the potential for Mr. Track Star. Maybe with a LS equivilent for those who want to use it for only the track?

Priced between an SS and a ZL1, it should handle and perform that way. Enough trying to beat the boss, just engineer a car that fits that bill perfectly and you should beat the boss by default.

I tried to not get part specific cause everyone seems to have a good educated guess as to which part cost what but nobody really knows for sure.

Just my .02

Last edited by Z/enVy; 07-11-2011 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Noticed I listed driveline twice..
Z/enVy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:04 PM   #506
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
Generally speaking, I'm a big believer in KISS. And when it comes to Camaro I also believe that less is more. I'd rather not have MR, but it wouldn't be a deal killer either.

Some pretty good comments here, and interesting points by Number 3 on a Z/28 business case. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts to that.

The whole reason the Z/28 exists in the first place, is because Vince Piggins wanted to give the whole Camaro line up a performance image, by competing and beating the dominant Group B Mustang in the high profile Trans Am series. I'd say, that Z/28 accomplished it's goals in that regard, both on the track and in the show room. I'll also think it's fair to say that the folks who purchased Z/28s in that era were doing so for the car's racing bona fides versus the actual desire to go showroom stock racing every weekend. In other words, it needed to be a winner in the crucible of racing to be a marketing success, even if most of it's buyers never raced their cars.

And that brings up the dilemma. Can a 5th gen Z/28 out perform both this generation Boss and the next gen one, (the next gen Boss would probably end up being it's direct contemporary)? I don't know the answer to that. Professional Camaro race teams have as of yet, not been able to outperform the Mustangs and BMWs they race against. Some pretty straight forward reasons for that, I'm sure that you can guess why.
If a prospective Z/28 can not outperform a Boss Mustang (the current and the next one), then GM should just not do it and funnel all that energy into the 6th gen car. We really need this product to best in class. And best in class means just one thing here - beat the Boss Mustang at what it specializes at, and do it at a similar price point.
Check again!
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:12 PM   #507
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,616
Would it be smart for GM to call the Camaro a "GS" Camaro if it has an FE4 suspension?
In other words the FE4 creates another Camaro "package" (suspension, badging, etc.) like the Corvette.
Think about it...it seems like a smart thing to do.
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:18 PM   #508
JusticePete
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 17,605
On track weight is like height in the NBA. A player with the same skills, same strength and same quicks that is taller will perform better. Or in coach speak, you can't coach height. The same things that make a Camaro more desirable than a Mustang dimensionally, make it heavier. If the 5th Gen were built the same way, but 10% smaller it would be lighter than a Mustang. It is closer to 15% bigger. Weight on a race course is almost geometric in effect. Having a larger car running the same lap times a smaller car reflects the excellence of the chassis design.
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:21 PM   #509
JusticePete
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 17,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
BTW Pete, I am selling my 2500HD on Monday and hopefully doing bushings and coilovers in the near future with Rich
I see more track time in your future!!!!!
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2011, 04:29 PM   #510
LOWDOWN
Downright Upright
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,145
GS has two meanings within GM:

GRAND SPORT - first seen in a handfull of Corvettes, circa '63...and carried forward in '96 with the C4-LT4, and now the C6 as a Base-Model "track-able" upgrade.

GRAN SPORT - Buick, in Riv/Wildcat/Skylark, about '65. Now making an apparent return to Regal (with others to follow?).

How about S/R? A "reverse" of R/S which, as S/R, could stand for "Street/Race" or anything else Marketing wishes to promote, "politically correct"?

CS, in "certain circles", can have a "naughty" connotation...
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
700 hp z/28 in 2014, the greatest camaro

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BREAKING: 2012 CAMARO ZL1 - 6.2L LSA Supercharged - 6MT Revealed! Tran Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 756 05-01-2013 07:22 AM
Transcript of Camaro ZL1 Q&A Webchat with Chevrolet Tran Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 38 02-17-2012 01:45 AM
Installation Camaro Needed for Manual for a Justice Install Package in SF Bay Area Info@PeddersUSA.com USA - California 6 04-30-2010 09:02 PM
The DEFINITIVE EXPLANATION OF CAMARO SUSPENSION, ISSUES, AND UPGRADES Info@PeddersUSA.com Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 106 10-19-2009 07:08 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.