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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 08-26-2011, 09:39 PM   #901
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I would like to see what you think "each" of those add-ons would add $ to the cost of a 1SS. Thanks.
I think what's more important, overall, is the price-profit situation...

First of all, when ALL development co$t$ are quantified, I agree with Dragoneye the car MUST be profitable...PERIOD. Why?

1) IF (italic'd) the Zee only sells to Camaro/GM folks (i.e. no conquest sales), each unit will potentially be at the expense of at least an SS and perhaps also the occasional ZL1. And no one disputes GM makes/will make money on those. Right?

2) Conquest sales (and you can bet your bippy there'll be plenty of those) need to be at a profit, as well. These folks may be "fresh" to GM, or haven't graced our showrooms for a lengthy time period. And, to keep 'em, administration (sales AND warranty AND service AND follow-up) of the total experience MUST be top notch...or we may be "one hit wonders". Remember, few of these folks will use the ZEE as a daily driver, or be single-car situations. We want that other business, too!

3) The very nature of this car (and I speak from 1969 experience) will demand higher warranty costs...that GM will be obliged to honor...see 2) above.

4) GM, as sadly many want to constantly shout, is in the biz of makin' money, at the end of the day. "Hot" vehicles, in high demand, with somewhat-limited supply (no matter what the projections may be) simply DO NOT NEED TO BE GIVEN AWAY. How can I say that with a possible price tag in the mid-$40s? If it COSTS $45 to SELL FOR $45, really, why bother??

5) Of ALL the Camaro models possible, THIS ONE MUST BE MONEY IN THE BANK!!

...and it WILL BE!

Reminds me of Macy's on "Black Thursday"...open the doors and STAND BACK...you don't wanna get TRAMPLED by the rushing herd!

6) Marketing costs, in this social media-sensitive time, will be LESS than other Camaro models. In fact, I suspect (as Dragoneye has found out himself, personally) there are ZL1 and mod-intenders who would reconsider their "previous committed plans"...and a slew of folks who would trade their Gen-5 Camaros...and 'Stangs, and others...for a chance at this iconic, short-term-in-current-circumstance Z/28...

This isn't a complete Business Case...but it closely follows (minus "real" numbers) what the process will include, along with other critical criteria that would bog us down, here.

Time for one of Lutz's "favored" power-point presentations...
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:40 PM   #902
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So...purely speculatively-speaking...can I answer with another question?
Will the Z28 be priced appropriately?

Joe, I hoping between $45 and $50K depending on options. GM shouldn't have any problem building and making a profit with those numbers.

They have the car (1SS) and the parts should come off the shelf and from Pedders.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:49 PM   #903
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Joe, I hoping between $45 and $50K depending on options. GM shouldn't have any problem building and making a profit with those numbers.

They have the car (1SS) and the parts should come off the shelf and from Pedders.
PEDDERS?! How'd THEY sneak in here?! Oh yeah...the original premise from oh sooo l o n g ago...

New equation:

1SS (with a few bits from an LS) + wet LS7 + CTS-V stuff + (ZL1?) Forged/R-rated (as opposed to X-rated?) rolling stock + Pedders-enhanced FE4 = a promotion for the guys/gals with the guts/backing/confidence/numbers to see it built...

Gee, no wonder I did so poorly in math equations...

As to $45-or-so, there is NO reason to sell it for LESS (competitively speaking), and there is NO reason GM will NOT sell all they can make. Period.

Nice double negative, no?!
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:01 PM   #904
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It's definitely NOT slipped their minds.....just be careful to avoid "well-placed emails" becoming "badgering messages"...
This, folks, is SOUND ADVICE.

IF you correspond with "anyone" at the "RenCen", be polite and professional, with a pinch of humility...and a HUGE DOSE of "I'm ready to BUY an LS7'd Z/28!" enthusiasm.



Play nice...
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:58 PM   #905
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:02 AM   #906
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Well no Z28 for me. I bought this instead. Maybe by the time it comes out I will have $ fund built back up.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:04 AM   #907
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Well no Z28 for me. I bought this instead. Maybe by the time it comes out I will have $ fund built back up.


That looks like a $$$ making machine.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:08 AM   #908
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[/B]

That looks like a $$$ making machine.
Yes they can be if done right.. My side job so to speak. My last one paid for it's self several times over, but was getting up there in hours. So since there is no Z28 I went for the upgrade.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:14 AM   #909
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A guy called my '69 Kubota orange one time.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:27 AM   #910
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That funny.. I used some hugger orange on my old one after welding on some bucket hooks (had some on hand). It was just a few shades off, but suprised how close it realy was. O.K. back to the Z28....
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:25 PM   #911
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Well no Z28 for me. I bought this instead. Maybe by the time it comes out I will have $ fund built back up.
Attachment 280881
I'm no expert on earth moving equipment but I suspect that it won't be as fast as a Z28.
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Old 08-27-2011, 04:17 PM   #912
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Welcome our friend, please tell your friends about this thread .

Thanks for the welcome. Will do on telling others.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:17 PM   #913
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"OLD SCHOOL"?!

Hell, I'm just plain OLD...sonny!
LOL...hence my name, we're in the same club!
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Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z View Post
Will the new Z/28 be limited like the Boss, and will there be a rear seat delete option?
What are your opinions?
Most certainly by it's very nature it would be limited I imagine, and I hope we have delete options. I would suggest we can delete more. It's fanciful thoughts, and GM wouldn't do it, but being "old school" I would not mind having manual windows, door locks, and manual seats etc., or other non performance ammenties taken off the menu to save weight. It's a pure bred race car, stiff, harsh, and Millenium Falcon fast. I wouldn't need SatNav, moonroof, or leather. Now, the kick arse radio,..wellll, is a must! .
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Give me old school!!
Welcome to the choir!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Dragoneye, "appropriate pricing" is in the eye of the buyer...AND GM...

BOSSes from $42-48K leaves a "sweet spot" for Z/28 pricing to play within...'tween 2SS and ZL1...with performance close to a ZL1, especially 'round a track, as Pete astutely notes. And that spread allows for a carefully-optioned and -featured 1SS with an LS7, a suitably upgraded "old school" "enhanced FE4" suspension, HD brakes/driveline components, and weight-saving, handling-assisting measures like forged wheels and Z (or R) -rated rubber for supreme gription (my favorite recent word...).

Like the BOSS, and complementing Wixom's "wishes" and "capacities", 5,000 units would frankly be the tip of the iceberg...with NO Titanic downside...

Sorry for the metaphors, but you get the gist...right?

NOW...do "they" get the gist?!

Get those card 'n letters (and e-mails) going! Vote with your wallets, folks!

EDIT:

Some of you may have noticed I changed my "sig"... Feel free to "copy and paste" it to your notes, but you might just delete the "broken record"...or NOT as the case may be. There will be NO copyright infringement, and NO royalites to pay!
Good post as usual Lowdown, we get the gist, I surmise they do as well. Keep beating the drum, it's not a broken record.
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The ZL1 will be a road course animal. GM and Chevrolet are absolutely committed to that. They have ramped up thier validation to make certain the car will shine at a HPDEs or open track time.

If there is a Z/28 and if they build it as we have discussed in this thread the Z/28 would be a better car on a road course defined by -- less weight up front, less heat soak (NA vs FI) and a wheel and tire package that is designed for optimal cornering at the expense of ride quality.

In terms of technology, the ZL1 is state-of-the-art. The Z/28 would be old school, because that is what the enthusiasts in this thread want.
Bravo. Hopefully we won't have to keep trying to convince anyone besides ourselves it can be done by the fall of 2013.
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Conversations with people led me to more closely look at the changes they made to the vehicle, and estimate the costs incurred. These "people" also have a very calibrated guestimator on their shoulders...

When a company in the business of making money wants to introduce a new product to a specific, limited audience - one of the few ways to justify it in a business case is the increased profit over an existing product.

As I see the options...the Boss doesn't do that. Or else if it does - it's marginal at best. Meaning (to me), that Ford values the marketing effect of the Boss enough to justify the development costs. I heard that the Boss will only be produced for 2 MYs, as well...if this is true...then it would seem to support my guesses.

That's why I asked about Z28 price. GM would probably be inclined to charge more to justify it, because they already have the Camaro AND Corvette for their 'mystique'.
It's nice to hear you have an inside "hook" Joe......GM knows how to make a profit, even if they sold widgets. In this case the ZL1 is the item they want to make profit on. Once it does, so then goes the Z28. It's a matter of when we get the Z28, not if.
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:58 PM   #914
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I believe there is little to no weight savings in dropping todays power windows and power locks. However power seats yes.
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:51 PM   #915
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Well no Z28 for me. I bought this instead. Maybe by the time it comes out I will have $ fund built back up.
Attachment 280881
Ya know, I see some similarities to a Pedderized Zee...

No Sunroof
Manual Trans
Adjustable Front End
Adjustable Rear
Adjustable Steering

However, I think the tire stagger is off a wee bit...and they don't look like R-compounds... And I believe it may be missin' a cylinder or two...
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Old 08-27-2011, 11:16 PM   #916
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LMAO.. It may be slow, but no jack man needed for tire changes.
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:51 AM   #917
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Ya know, I see some similarities to a Pedderized Zee...

No Sunroof
Manual Trans
Adjustable Front End
Adjustable Rear
Adjustable Steering

However, I think the tire stagger is off a wee bit...and they don't look like R-compounds... And I believe it may be missin' a cylinder or two...


FYI: I have been posting less frequently. The reasons are all good. SEMA projects are in high gear. Other Special Projects are taking up more time as well. This thread brings special focus to a very special vehicle. The LS7 belongs in a Z/28. The 5th Gen should have a Z/28.



Yesterday I decided to spend a day at a retail Pedders shop. We did a 5th Gen Track II. The alignment is unique to this 5th Gen. It has OE wheels and tires.

Front
Camber -1.6
Toe .50 OUT
Added a degree of Castor

Rear
Camber 0
Toe IN .05

The test drive was on public roadways so we did not explore the limits. The car is very well balanced. Our new client is going to have fun looking for understeer. I am sure he can find it... if he looks hard enough.



I really like to do retail installs because I get to see first hand how genuinely passionate our Camaro enthusiasts are. My shop day was strictly suspension. I cannot imagine how thrilled a client would be to take delivery of a LS7 Z/28 from GM. If Pedders were to have a small role in a project like this I can't imagine how excited I would be to see the face of the very first Z/28 owner.
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:45 PM   #918
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Pete, excellent post!
And yes receiving an LS7/Z28 would be beyond words. Add Pedders and you'd see grown men faint.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:34 PM   #919
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It's nice to hear you have an inside "hook" Joe......GM knows how to make a profit, even if they sold widgets. In this case the ZL1 is the item they want to make profit on. Once it does, so then goes the Z28. It's a matter of when we get the Z28, not if.
I'll never claim my friends are 'hooks'. All just casual conversation about non-confidential stuff...but I appreciate the thought.

I believe the only three things holding back a Z28 (if it were being proposed) would be a justifiable business case, CAFE effect (big picture thoughts...), and development time. They don't need to wait for the ZL1 to make real money before they introduce a new model...just so long as the Z28 can make its own money...

Quote:
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I believe there is little to no weight savings in dropping todays power windows and power locks. However power seats yes.
I think you're about right! Factor in the increased cost to switch over...and it becomes a difficult change to justify...
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:46 PM   #920
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1) Yesterday I decided to spend a day at a retail Pedders shop. We did a 5th Gen Track II. The alignment is unique to this 5th Gen. It has OE wheels and tires.

Front
Camber -1.6
Toe .50 OUT
Added a degree of Castor

Rear
Camber 0
Toe IN .05

The test drive was on public roadways so we did not explore the limits. The car is very well balanced.

2) I cannot imagine how thrilled a client would be to take delivery of a LS7 Z/28 from GM. If Pedders were to have a small role in a project like this I can't imagine how excited I would be to see the face of the very first Z/28 owner.
1) What wheels/tires, and sizes, Pete?

2) As you know, Pete, "so close, and yet so far..."

"Passion" for an LS7'd Z/28 is 'way beyond what that "wax-guy" talks about...
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:19 PM   #921
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I'll never claim my friends are 'hooks'. All just casual conversation about non-confidential stuff...but I appreciate the thought.

I believe the only three things holding back a Z28 (if it were being proposed) would be a justifiable business case, CAFE effect (big picture thoughts...), and development time. They don't need to wait for the ZL1 to make real money before they introduce a new model...just so long as the Z28 can make its own money...

I think you're about right! Factor in the increased cost to switch over...and it becomes a difficult change to justify...
I know we want fuel efficent cars and all but this nanny state bull is pissing me



Ok back on subject.
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Old 08-29-2011, 05:57 PM   #922
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I'll never claim my friends are 'hooks'. All just casual conversation about non-confidential stuff...but I appreciate the thought.
LOL....it was sarcasim.....no real thought given...
Quote:
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I think you're about right! Factor in the increased cost to switch over...and it becomes a difficult change to justify...
That went without saying Joe...it's commonly understood that the packages coupled together as they are could not be changed or eliminated without major hassle and cost...merely a thought presented about the lengths I as an old guy who never had those things would go to if it could be done, and we all know it could not because of the hassle and cost..., a stretch of the imagination to make a point about jettisoning weight
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:29 PM   #923
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2.99 has a few thoughts on this.

Yes there would be costs to bring out a Z/28 5th Gen. There would also be sales to offset some or all of the cost. Ford doesn't really sell a variety of Mustangs. They sell a variety of motors in Mustangs.The GT500 is marketed at the top king of the hill Mustang while the Boss is dressed up with a handling package and marketed as a road course beast. Ford does this to increase units. Maybe they have to because the update in 2010 didn't catch fire. The roll out of the 5.0 on 11 didn't catch fire. It may be a matter of necessity.

Before the 2015 6th gen rolls out in 2014 or whenever it rolls out, the Z/28 could serve as a halo vehicle to drive sales of the 5th Gen in the last year or 18 months. If the sales of the 5th Gen continue to be strong and outpace the Mustang we may never see a Z/28.

Hey 2.99! This is Justice Pete. I have been exchanging emails and PMs with a couple of prospective GT500 vs SS Camaro buyers. They are doing a cost benefit of upgrades to the SS vs purchase costs of the GT500. Funny thing is they don't discuss warranty. They are looking at the design of the Camaro vs the performance of the GT500. The younger buyers are giving an edge to the Sync features. The ZL1 will certainly help Chevy win buyers in another year. I get very few PMs or emails comparing the BOSS L/S to the SS. I don't know if that is because the BOSS is viewed as the clear winner or Ford is selling very few BOSS L/S units. My guess is those that run the 5th Gen Program at Chevrolet already have the answers to these question.

This is Flounder. You guys talk too much. I just want my LS7 Z/28 and I want it NOW!
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:24 PM   #924
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Step away from the keyboard, the nice men in white coats are going to come and bring you to the peaceful place where everyone is all smiles and talk in nice, soothing tones Pete, err 2.99. err, umm flounder? Just stay put and stay away from anything pointy or boomy.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:48 PM   #925
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Our Rebel Leader #2.99 has spoken,...so it has been written,..so it shall be done....
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