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Old 07-11-2011, 02:04 PM   #505
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I've read the whole thread.... took me 3 days. Number 3 seems to have brought up the good points. GM is going to tailor to the many not the few. Alot on here are asking for Coilovers instead of MR, well I can tell you, I will be one of the many who don't think it neccissary to get out and reset suspension. I'm looking for a Z/28 that will out-perform on the street as well as on a track. On the street you can't look at the ricer and say "Hold on I need to pull over and adjust my suspension." Getting out and changing the suspension for every situation, it just seems like too much work for me. I dont plan on taking mine to the track hardly if ever. It will be my DD as well as many other peoples. MR is one thing Ford doesn't have, it seems to me if I was running the program I would want to flaunt that a little bit; So keeping MR off the Z/28 is starting to seem more and more unlikly.

I mentioned above that this Z was going to be my DD. I won't be the only one. So removing ALL the sound proofing? Not a good idea. Manual only? Have you ever tried a commute to houston with a stick? It SUUUUCCCKKS. Plus we are tailoring to the few again. Manual is also hard to drive for those of us who have wrist problems.... I have had 2 z/28s in the past a 78 and an 85, both were automatic and bad as hell. When you got down on it, they chirped the tires going into third. So here is my dream of a Z/28;
All standards (HP/TQ Handling) built to compete with the Boss, not neccissarily blow it out of the water and not geared to be a Boss specific killer.

#1 N/A ; For the many previous stated reasons.

#2 Highly modifiable engine (Bolt-ons, etc.) ; So each gearhead can build it his way if he isn't quite satisfied with the power.

#3 Auto and Man Transmission ; For the many

#4 MR (maybe with opt-out option?); 'cause I'm seeing more and more probability in this happenin'

#5 Heavier duty supporting driveline ; Make it better than ss quality but maybe not quite up to zl1 standards if it will cut some of the cost

#6 A/C & Radio. Texas heat. 'nuff said. (Plus keeping it for the many)

#7 Removing some of the heavy seats and saving on weight without removing base comforts.

This gives everyone a good building block that you can take one step further if you are willing. It's nice enough for average joe, but has the potential for Mr. Track Star. Maybe with a LS equivilent for those who want to use it for only the track?

Priced between an SS and a ZL1, it should handle and perform that way. Enough trying to beat the boss, just engineer a car that fits that bill perfectly and you should beat the boss by default.

I tried to not get part specific cause everyone seems to have a good educated guess as to which part cost what but nobody really knows for sure.

Just my .02

Last edited by Z/enVy; 07-11-2011 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Noticed I listed driveline twice..
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:04 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
Generally speaking, I'm a big believer in KISS. And when it comes to Camaro I also believe that less is more. I'd rather not have MR, but it wouldn't be a deal killer either.

Some pretty good comments here, and interesting points by Number 3 on a Z/28 business case. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts to that.

The whole reason the Z/28 exists in the first place, is because Vince Piggins wanted to give the whole Camaro line up a performance image, by competing and beating the dominant Group B Mustang in the high profile Trans Am series. I'd say, that Z/28 accomplished it's goals in that regard, both on the track and in the show room. I'll also think it's fair to say that the folks who purchased Z/28s in that era were doing so for the car's racing bona fides versus the actual desire to go showroom stock racing every weekend. In other words, it needed to be a winner in the crucible of racing to be a marketing success, even if most of it's buyers never raced their cars.

And that brings up the dilemma. Can a 5th gen Z/28 out perform both this generation Boss and the next gen one, (the next gen Boss would probably end up being it's direct contemporary)? I don't know the answer to that. Professional Camaro race teams have as of yet, not been able to outperform the Mustangs and BMWs they race against. Some pretty straight forward reasons for that, I'm sure that you can guess why.
If a prospective Z/28 can not outperform a Boss Mustang (the current and the next one), then GM should just not do it and funnel all that energy into the 6th gen car. We really need this product to best in class. And best in class means just one thing here - beat the Boss Mustang at what it specializes at, and do it at a similar price point.
Check again!
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:12 PM   #507
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Would it be smart for GM to call the Camaro a "GS" Camaro if it has an FE4 suspension?
In other words the FE4 creates another Camaro "package" (suspension, badging, etc.) like the Corvette.
Think about it...it seems like a smart thing to do.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:18 PM   #508
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On track weight is like height in the NBA. A player with the same skills, same strength and same quicks that is taller will perform better. Or in coach speak, you can't coach height. The same things that make a Camaro more desirable than a Mustang dimensionally, make it heavier. If the 5th Gen were built the same way, but 10% smaller it would be lighter than a Mustang. It is closer to 15% bigger. Weight on a race course is almost geometric in effect. Having a larger car running the same lap times a smaller car reflects the excellence of the chassis design.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:21 PM   #509
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BTW Pete, I am selling my 2500HD on Monday and hopefully doing bushings and coilovers in the near future with Rich
I see more track time in your future!!!!!
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:29 PM   #510
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GS has two meanings within GM:

GRAND SPORT - first seen in a handfull of Corvettes, circa '63...and carried forward in '96 with the C4-LT4, and now the C6 as a Base-Model "track-able" upgrade.

GRAN SPORT - Buick, in Riv/Wildcat/Skylark, about '65. Now making an apparent return to Regal (with others to follow?).

How about S/R? A "reverse" of R/S which, as S/R, could stand for "Street/Race" or anything else Marketing wishes to promote, "politically correct"?

CS, in "certain circles", can have a "naughty" connotation...
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:45 PM   #511
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Ok, here is another question. If a Z28 has to beat the Boss (assuming this is a track contest only, no drag strip, not counting a car that is close to the Boss but a better daily driver) does it have to beat the Boss on any track, on any day, under any conditions? Or can it be that the Mustang, being smaller and lighter, can win on a short track but the Camaro wins on a long track?

Because I'm concerned about a heavier car winning every race. I think we all agree that whatever happens, getting weight parity won't happen. HP parity maybe, but to win every race on every course against a Boss would mean a chassis upgrade so incredible that the Boss can't keep up. Maybe the IRS can deliver that much improvement.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:09 PM   #512
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Folks, a go-cart will win a gymkana or autocross, and a Saturn V rocket will win at Talledaga...

POWER-TO-WEIGHT is required. To overcome the Camaro's "inherited", and inherent, "disadvantage", the Zee MUST overcome this. Documented elsewhere, here, but to repeat:

3850 lb/505 hp/470 ft-lb = 7.63 lb/hp and 8.19 lb/ft-lb

3631 lb/444 hp/380 ft-lb = 8.18 lb/hp and 9.56 lb/ft-lb

ADD Camaro's IRS. ADD tires of equivalent gription to the BOSS' but in increased sizes (Pete's suggestion of 305 or 315 @ all 4 corners? One thing's for sure: Camaro CAN wear bigger rubber than the Stang! Front AND Rear. "Footprint counts!"). ADD MR if absolutely necessary...

Camaro Zee = 6% more weight, 7.2% better hp/weight, 16.7% better torque/weight, with 10%+ more rubber-to-the-road AND IRS...

Advantage? Let's rent Waterford, or GingerMan, or Daytona (either course), or...and let's just see...

Folks, these are NOT pie-in-the-sky numbers...at roughly equivalent DOLLAR$ to the Laguna Seca Edition...$47-ish. And you will NOT buy any version of a ZL1 for that number...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-11-2011 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:46 PM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Ok, here is another question. If a Z28 has to beat the Boss (assuming this is a track contest only, no drag strip, not counting a car that is close to the Boss but a better daily driver) does it have to beat the Boss on any track, on any day, under any conditions? Or can it be that the Mustang, being smaller and lighter, can win on a short track but the Camaro wins on a long track?

Because I'm concerned about a heavier car winning every race. I think we all agree that whatever happens, getting weight parity won't happen. HP parity maybe, but to win every race on every course against a Boss would mean a chassis upgrade so incredible that the Boss can't keep up. Maybe the IRS can deliver that much improvement.
Even the Superbowl champs don't win every game. Except my Dolphins.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:47 PM   #514
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Bench racing vs reality.

How many people will actually be racing Mustangs. Vs How many people would just like to see - an improved SS, called a Z28, and a reasonable MSRP.

I've owned my SS for 2 years, never raced a Mustang once, never pushed it 9/10th on a road course track.... But for my next purchase would like to see a more better version - A little more power, better exhaust sound, better handling, new wheels, Z28 badges....

Forget the LS7, way too expensive, and the Camaro doesn't corner at any where near the G's where dry sump is needed. Plus, it's maxed out at the expense of durability.

I'm sticking with my wish list for a Z28:

- 450is hp (LS3 with improved cam and exhaust)
- ZL1 drivetrain improvements (everything from the clutch to the axles) this gives you the better trans, clutch, DS, axles, diff housing, 3.73s...
- Fine tune the SS suspension - springs/bars/bushings... no MR
- Appearance stuff like a heritage grille, chin spoiler, ZL1 rear spoiler, Z28 specific stripes....
- Lightweight forged wheels
- Dual mode exhaust
- Michelin tires, sligtly wider
- Low 40s MSRP

Then worry about the power to weight on the next gen. No getting around the current weight without a hugely expensive engine. Which puts you right back at the ZL1's likely problem - price. When that sticker shock hits, I'll bet the market demand for a Z28 with a blue collar price will show up.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:24 PM   #515
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What you "wish for", RJ, is EXACTLY the problem facing the Camaro Team/GM: volume (lower price, less content) vs. "competitive forces" (i.e. BOSS).

IF ZL1 is considered the "ultimate Camaro", it will not be approached, in any performance category, by any other Camaro.

IF there are "forces at play" who seek "something" akin a true Gen-1 Z/28, and don't blanch at the thought of "matching the competition" aka BOSS, then they'll recognize "more" is available and can be done...

"Stickers" vs. "skillsets", we'll call it...

Or, "earning your stripes, instead of simply wearing them"...

Maybe...just maybe... like Ford, GM will realize there's room for TWO Zees...one like your LS3+ @ low $40s (like the Base BOSS), and one like mine, Laguna Seca-seeking @ $47ish...but I doubt that... Too late in the CadMaro Gen-5 game...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-11-2011 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:37 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
GS has two meanings within GM:

GRAND SPORT - first seen in a handfull of Corvettes, circa '63...and carried forward in '96 with the C4-LT4, and now the C6 as a Base-Model "track-able" upgrade.

GRAN SPORT - Buick, in Riv/Wildcat/Skylark, about '65. Now making an apparent return to Regal (with others to follow?).

How about S/R? A "reverse" of R/S which, as S/R, could stand for "Street/Race" or anything else Marketing wishes to promote, "politically correct"?

CS, in "certain circles", can have a "naughty" connotation...
There is a GS Camaro. GS series racing.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:41 PM   #517
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There is a GS Camaro. GS series racing.
...NOT a showroom-saleable one...and if you reference the Series, by name, you'll be in the same fix Pontiac was with the Trans Am...sending someone a check every time you sell one... NOT a "big deal" in '69 when they sold 697, but HUGE in '79 when they sold over 100,000!

The "showroom" name for that car would be the already-intro'd SSX.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:48 PM   #518
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Even the Superbowl champs don't win every game. Except my Dolphins.
Did you mention that on porpoise?
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