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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 05-28-2011, 09:06 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
But this is doable. It's reasonable. And will be profitable.

Im all for a NA Z/28...everyone around here knows that

But if dropping in a LS7 was doable, reasonable and profitable I believe it would have already been done!

I wish I could find the post by Fbodfather that talks about the cost and how it was not practical to use a LS7 in the Camaro...... search engine is not turning it up
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:16 PM   #77
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A while back #3 posted the formula for a lightweight 5th Gen. Building a Z28 and being cost effective for the consumer and GM presents a lot of challenges. Variable height suspension is a major issue because of government crash testing. Having said that there are ways...

If we follow #3's formula to take weight out of the car that would give us the base for a Z28. He detailed it down to the gas cover release mechanism. So assuming we could get GM to build the lightweight version the next step would be a special order check box for track use only. That box would include;
  • Light weight racing wheels (they would never pass GM's wheel testing for street use, but they passed mine ) with something like an RE-11 305/30/19
  • A full Pedders Justice Suspension (all GMPP of course).
  • A track calibration for the ABS, Stability Control (turn it off) and more aggressive engine tune
  • Brake ducts
  • Oil Cooler
  • Diff Cooler
  • PS Cooler

GM only has to do the lightweight build, interior and exterior badges and the Z28 is a reality. Warranty is no issue because the car uses the current stock drive-line.The Z28 with the track pack dealer installed check box makes our dreams come true, but without a warrantyor government interference.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:17 PM   #78
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It's not been done because the Z28 became the ZL1 most likely when word of the Boss came out. I'm sure they figured like we all have GT500 = ZL1, Boss = Z28. Which makes me and others believe the Z28 will happen for the Gen5. If you want a NA Z28 like the rest of us get on the bandwagon.
We are trying to make sense of the business plan for the Z28 by using existing components that will make it competative in its capabilities as well as competitively priced.
If you look at the thread the math shows even with the LS7 it's competitive. Just think of the sales/marketableness of a 427 Z28!

I believe FBodFather's comments were some while ago, before the Z28 became a ZL1.

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Old 05-28-2011, 09:26 PM   #79
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Pete
This thread is trying to be more realistic in that we are not pressing the weight issue. It weighs what it weighs. We are trying to make the point that it is doable. Even with available parts. I'd love to hear your take on what has been discussed. I'd also like to see some of your parts used.
Interesting that the Government would be behind not being able to use the coilovers. They must save us from ourselves.
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:02 PM   #80
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I am all over a Z28 from existing components. Using the existing drive-line eliminates the cost of a new drive-line validation. We carry over the brakes from the ZL1. Thinner glass is not a high cost development project. It just isn't as quiet. Leaving out the sound insulation is straight forward. Modern electric windows are not all that heavy. My guess is crank vs. electric is almost a wash. We drop all the toaster cover stuff. No engine cover. No sound insulation over the plenum. You can see where I am going with this. A stripped down version of the 5h Gen is prohibitively expensive to build, BUT there are areas we can address weight reduction and still be production / cost friendly.

Instead of changing the engine, change the tranny and rear end gearing. The SS exhaust is reasonably free flowing, but can we get more power and less weight out of a different exhaust system? My answer is yes. There are plenty of engineers here who can do the math better than I, but my inner car guy knows that the more weight we save the less power we need. I would bet dollars to donuts the engineers at GM can get us another 50 HP out of the LS3 with revised intake, exhaust and tune. Louder, lighter and faster. We continue down the weight route with two piece rotors. They are available through GMPP as Brembo CTS-V rotors. Lighter wheels are a must, but a validation issue.

GM has already made a running change with the sub-frame bushes to improve IRS stability. Maybe we can get them to continue down that road or in my perfect world use Pedders bushes. GM is certainly capable of doing bigger sways and we do want to see the ZL1 lower arms in our Z28. Leave the MR to the Zl1 and let Pedders supply a fixed height set of independent bound and rebound adjustable fixed height coilovers.

We keep the car as clean, light and as simple as possible and priced above the SS and below the ZL1.

If I have missed the point of this thread, please continue to set me straight. I am on you side. I want a Z28 too!
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:26 AM   #81
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GM has already made a running change with the sub-frame bushes to improve IRS stability. Maybe we can get them to continue down that road or in my perfect world use Pedders bushes.

Pete, what changes did they make to the sub frame bushings?
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:12 AM   #82
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I think we can all agree the ZL1 driveline/brake/wheel/tire pieces (excluding MR) will transfer to a Z/28 nicely...same amount of "work" and co$t...as previously "conceptualized". The BONUS, here, is we've just DECREASED the UNIT COST of the ZL1, as well!

Changing tranny/gears alone requires re-certification...

Weight-reduction and mods to the current structure requires re-crash-testing...

Changes to exhaust are exhausting...and there are noise constraints for OEMs that don't exist for Aftermarket upgrades...if desired...

Therefore, these changes would require as much/more "work" by the Team to be Production-ready...without significantly decreasing power-to-weight...while increasing the co$t of the vehicle. Funny how a 1LE used to give you less...but cost you more... After all, "nothing is for nothing".

Base 1SS = 3850. 426 hp (as validated). P/W = 9.03lb/hp Now, take out 150 lb...

Z/28 (LS3) = 3700/426hp = *8.69 lb/hp $39,900 (equipped as per post above)

Z/28 (LS3 + 50hp [which doesn't exist currently] = 3700/475hp = 7.79 lb/hp AT WHAT CO$T? Close-to-LS7 money, is my bet, by the time all is said and done...in these volumes.

Z/28 (LS7) = 3850/500hp = *7.70 lb/hp Low-Mid $40s (as per Number 3, earlier)

ZL1 (LSA) = 4000+/556 = 7.19 lb/hp $50Gs+

BOSS = 3600/440 = 8.18 lb/hp Mid-$40s

Raise your hand if, to lose *ONE POUND PER HORSEPOWER*, you'd pay $5Gs extra.

BTW, by the NAIAS, next January, all '12 ZL1s will be spoken for. What a GREAT time/place to announce "the return of the legendary Z/28...NOW taking orders!", for April/May '12 delivery...
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:45 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Changing tranny/gears requires re-certification...

Weight-reduction and mods to the current structure requires re-crash-testing...

Changes to exhaust are exhausting...and there are noise constraints for OEMs that don't exist for Aftermarket upgrades...if desired...

Therefore, these changes would require as much/more "work" by the Team to be Production-ready...without significantly decreasing power-to-weight...while increasing the co$t of the vehicle. Funny how a 1LE used to give you less...but cost you more... After all, "nothing is for nothing".

Base 1SS = 3850. 426 hp (as validated). P/W = 9.03lb/hp Now, take out 150 lb...

Z/28 (LS3) = 3700/426hp = 8.69 lb/hp $39,900 (equipped as per post above)

Z/28 (LS7) = 3850/500hp = 7.70 lb/hp [I]Low-Mid $40s (as per Number 3, earlier)

ZL1 (LSA) = 4000+/556 = 7.19 lb/hp $50Gs+

BOSS = 3600/440 = 8.18 lb/hp Mid-$40s

Raise your hand if, to lose ONE POUND PER HORSEPOWER, you'd pay $5Gs.

BTW, by the NAIAS, next January, all '12 ZL1s will be spoken for. What a GREAT time/place to announce "the return of the legendary Z/28...NOW taking orders!", for April/May '12 delivery...
What I am suggesting does not make a single structural change to the 5th Gen. #3 can speak to this, but I don't belive leaving out sound insulation requires crash testing. I am not sure about thinner glass, but again #3 could speak to that. My bet is that it would cost GM less to validate a gear change than to validate the LS7 in the Camaro. Even if it is the same, the price at retail would be significantly lower with a modified set of gears than with the LS7.

GM spent a fortune tuning the current exhaust. The same attention to detail would not apply to a Z28 because the sound insulation would never have been applied or installed. Just let it rip as long as it is decibel legal. Again, this is cost effective for GM and at retail.

I am not sure where weight reduction became sacrosanct. You can reduce weight in a Camaro cost effectively in a production environment. The perfect example is sound insulation. Do not spay it. Do not lay it. Do not install it. Everything will still fit and bolts up. As for other weight reducing components, you are right about the aftermarket. The Z28 would be a great car to use GMMP parts on in a production environment. It could be a proving ground for cost effective limited production vehicle development.

If GM can make the business case for the LS7 in the Z28 I am all for it. If they are willing to do that, then I would ask they also lose weight wherever possible. Lighter glass above the belt-line would do wonders for cornering. Two piece rotors that are a couple of pounds lighter are a HUGE gain at triple digit speeds. As I already wrote, the rotors are available from GMPP by Brembo for the CTS-V. Just like the LS7 is an off the shelf part so are all the GMPP parts.

There would be validation required on the GMPP parts, but that may not be as big a deal as we think. Pedders has done OE validation testing on our coilovers through an independent testing lab. We could make those results available in a Chevy Heartbeat. I think there are ways to do the Z28 lighter, faster and cost effectively. It all comes down to the business case and GM's outlook on future vehicle development.

In my mind, a Z28 is a handling car with a lot of horsepower. What I am getting from this thread is that a Z28 is a lot of horsepower that handles?
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:57 AM   #84
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But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:05 PM   #85
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But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
So the distinction between the ZL1 and the Z28 would be LS7 and Pedders fixed height Supercar coilovers?

Btw, I'll tweak my ZL1 the day I get it.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:14 PM   #86
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Pete, thanks for your input.

I agree a modified LS3 is the way to go for a new Z/28.

What's your opinion of the 376/480 LS3?
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:15 PM   #87
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But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
Pete don't get us wrong. We want a car that handles but as Lowdown stated we can't believe that GM would or should make a car that is not highly saleable. The alternative is to put in the more powerful and available LS7. This allows for a competitive Camaro performance and cost wise to the Boss. And of course we want the ZL1 brakes, drivetrain, etc. The simpler we keep this the faster to production and less expensive it will be.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:20 PM   #88
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Pete, thanks for your input.

I agree a modified LS3 is the way to go for a new Z/28.

What's your opinion of the 376/480 LS3?
Number 3 has stated the expense of the LS7 is in it's being low production. Why start on something new with less power that will also be built in low numbers? Makes no sense.
Instead use what exist and by adding to it's production it should lower the cost.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:27 PM   #89
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So the distinction between the ZL1 and the Z28 would be LS7 and Pedders fixed height Supercar coilovers?

Btw, I'll tweak my ZL1 the day I get it.
Yes and none of the extra fluff standard, but available. A true drivers car with no forced induction. Simply the difference between a GT500 and a Boss, but in Camaro form.

ZL1 = GT500
Z28 = Boss
OK not really equal, better.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:32 PM   #90
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In my mind, a Z28 is a handling car with a lot of horsepower. What I am getting from this thread is that a Z28 is a lot of horsepower that handles?
For me its a handling car with some extra power....

Im not hung up on the weight... I just want it to handle like its on rails!

Hell the boss is heavier than the GT coupe so what makes us think the Camaro isn't going to be the same way

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #91
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"What is 'right' as a Z/28", should be the question.

Whether we like it or not, the BOSS is the benchmark.

Take a 1SS...cloth (standard-grippier seats)...lightest that exists. Deletes will save a few pounds, but sadly will ADD COST. Minimized sound deadener. Seam sealer plays well north of the Mason-Dixon. Thin glass? Not really. Can the console be deleted, and the necessary hardware re-routed? What about an RPO for Rear Seat/Belts/Bags Delete as a separate option?

ZL1 Forged Wheels/Tires (or perhaps a Z/28-specific tire like the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports?)

ZL1 Brakes/ABS/StabiliTrak/TC

Revised Springs/Bars/Bushings...as required (Pete, do you need a PO?)

Wet-sump LS7 with ZL1 Tremec

ZL1 Splitter/Spoiler Pkg. ONLY

Z/28-specific Headrests/Mats ONLY

Z/28-specific Badges/Graphics (graphics deleteable @ n/c)

Z/28 Rear 1/4 Vents ala "Leno" - non-functional, but "someone" will have a kit...

NO "trick" hood/ground effects/geegaws...

ZL1 HD Driveline pieces (diff/axles etc.)

In this raging debate over LS7 vs. enhanced LS3, two distinct advantages exist:

1) The LS7 is a "done deal"...good-to-go, as they say

2) If you build a 500hp LS3+, it will NEVER have the TORQUE of the LS7. Pete, is more torque a good thing on a track, especially for corner exit? On the street? Is there anywhere that extra torque is a bad thing, icy roads excepted?
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:16 PM   #92
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Two additional GM beancounter benefits:

1) Utilizing ZL1 components brings their unit co$t down...cheaper for the Zee, more profit for the BIG Zee

2) Same applies to the "outrageous" co$t of the LS7...more built = lower unit cost

The more commonality between 1SS AND ZL1 AND Z/28, the quicker the lil Zee will happen, at reduced cost, and at reduced "burden". And at INCREASED PROFITS for GM. After all, more units, sooner = more profits...

Based on the Chicago Announcement timeline of about 9 months to showrrom floor, using pre-developed ZL1 components potentially shaves time AND cost. But I like the NAIAS Annoucement timeline...with Spring'12 deliveries...
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:42 PM   #93
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I'm lowdown with that!
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:39 PM   #94
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"What is 'right' as a Z/28", should be the question.

Whether we like it or not, the BOSS is the benchmark.

Take a 1SS...cloth (standard-grippier seats)...lightest that exists. Deletes will save a few pounds, but sadly will ADD COST. Minimized sound deadener. Seam sealer plays well north of the Mason-Dixon. Thin glass? Not really. Can the console be deleted, and the necessary hardware re-routed? What about an RPO for Rear Seat/Belts/Bags Delete as a separate option?

ZL1 Forged Wheels/Tires (or perhaps a Z/28-specific tire like the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports?)

ZL1 Brakes/ABS/StabiliTrak/TC

Revised Springs/Bars/Bushings...as required (Pete, do you need a PO?)

Wet-sump LS7 with ZL1 Tremec

ZL1 Splitter/Spoiler Pkg. ONLY

Z/28-specific Headrests/Mats ONLY

Z/28-specific Badges/Graphics (graphics deleteable @ n/c)

Z/28 Rear 1/4 Vents ala "Leno" - non-functional, but "someone" will have a kit...

NO "trick" hood/ground effects/geegaws...

ZL1 HD Driveline pieces (diff/axles etc.)

In this raging debate over LS7 vs. enhanced LS3, two distinct advantages exist:

1) The LS7 is a "done deal"...good-to-go, as they say

2) If you build a 500hp LS3+, it will NEVER have the TORQUE of the LS7. Pete, is more torque a good thing on a track, especially for corner exit? On the street? Is there anywhere that extra torque is a bad thing, icy roads excepted?
Torque is acceleration on the street or track so more is almost always better. There is a point of diminishing returns in the sense if you can't put it down you don't need it. Gearing makes a ridiculous difference, but the penalty is fuel economy.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:36 PM   #95
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^hence the need for overdrive.
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:30 AM   #96
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^hence the need for overdrive.
OK by me.
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:26 PM   #97
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. There is a point of diminishing returns in the sense if you can't put it down you don't need it
I was actually just thinking about this while dreaming about the future Z/28. Any guesses on when the "point of diminishing returns" starts to come into play on our Camaro? Lets say we are running 305's on all four corners and of course its fully pedderised.....
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:02 PM   #98
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Update:

I came across this previous post from Number 3, which certainly has merit...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=131653&page=3 Post #54

...which reinforces my contention that "deleting" and "substitution" on a significant scale will co$t a TON...but not come close to SAVING a "ton".

"Race car prepping", although changing the basic dynamics through a lowered cg and lowered Curb Weight, will make the car unliveable, on a regular/daily basis, for most of those seriously interested in such a "hard core handler", while literally exposing the car to a shortened life in climates other than the desert SouthWest...

Maybe GM PP needs to offer an "SSX Package"...racer-friendly...and then, to quote Darrell Waltrip and NASCAR, "Have at 'er, boyz!"

1) Let's be careful with features/options to minimize CW, while watching the cost/benefit closely;

2) To get to or under 8.0 lbs/hp (BOSS territory), again while watching the cost/benefit factors, simply requires an LS7 with wet-sump.

A 450hp enhanced LS3, in a 3700lb chassis = 8.22 lb/hp, is heavier than the BOSS, with a greater overall Mass, and greater Frontal Area. Too close to call, how this comparo might turn out.

3850lb/500hp = 7.7...with faaarrr more torque than the BOSS...or any n/a LS3. I think this one wins...everytime!
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:12 PM   #99
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Also we know some R&D was done on putting the LS7 in the Camaro. Just what was done to the red LS7 Camaro? Anyone remember?
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Old 05-30-2011, 05:52 PM   #100
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Also we know some R&D was done on putting the LS7 in the Camaro. Just what was done to the red LS7 Camaro? Anyone remember?
Show cars don't mean any R&D has been done. All it means for sure is that stuck an LS7 into a Camaro engine bay, not the most difficult of tasks. It might not have even ran.
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