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Old 07-24-2011, 07:18 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
I don't understand why there is NOT a "formal" relationship between GM Performance Parts and GM Divisions for pre-sale upfits.

Other manufacturers have their "performance boutique" parts that, if supplied/installed prior to first Retail Delivery, carry the Maufacturer's New Vehicle Warranty.

If the OEM-sold parts are up to standards, at premium prices and installed by "Factory-trained techs", and DO NOT COMPROMISE EMISSIONS, then why not?!

[Flame suit suitably worn...]
Can you be a bit more clear on your point? Every GM program begins with a list of aftermarket parts and accessories. It's not from program conception, but it is very early on.

I think internally we know we could do better job with MORE accessories, but I'm not sure what you mean by no formal relationship between GMPP and GM Divisions.

And only becuase it's my personal pet peave, this isn't an "old GM" vs "new GM" issue.

The best model in the world for this that I know of is Harley Davidson. They make huge amounts of money on accessories and performance upgrades.
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Old 07-24-2011, 01:19 PM   #665
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What follows, Number 3, is purely an example of a "formal relationship" between a Manufacturer's Sales and Parts departments..."synergy", if you please...or "vertical integration"......

If you take a look at the "formal" relationship between TRD and Toyota, or Lexus and their F-Sport Boutique (really a TRD off-shot), a parts purchase AND installation before 1st Retail Delivery carries the New Vehicle Warranty coverage (of course, depending on the part(s)). In Toyota's case, 36/36. In Lexus' case, 48/50. Instead of the "usual" 12/12 Parts-only Warranty you generally receive at a New Car Parts counter.

This "formal relationship" involves things like polished stainless cat-backs, 14" brakes, lowered coil-overs, monster sway bars, 19" forged wheels (less expensive than a similar-sized BBS rim from Tire Rack - BBS is the Lexus supplier!). Choose one...choose 'em all...choose what YOU want...supplied/installed/warranted! Of course, in the case of brakes, the warranty is against manufacturer's defect, NOT wear...just like any other New Vehicle Warranty. Wanna turn an IS 250 into a pseudo-ISF? And add it to your subvented-rate Financing? Ready-willing-able, the day you take your new pride-'n-joy home? No problem...

If you venture into a Lexus store, you'll see a display, approved and supplied by Parts, sitting in the showroom with a CAI, a c/f Engine Cover, a forged 19", a Stainless Cat-Back, a dropped Coilover, a 14" Big Brake caliper/rotor...in a freakin' LEXUS store! Who'da thunk?! You won't see that sort of thing at a Caddie ("V is for VICTORY") or Buick ("The GS Salon") showroom...or a Chevy ("The BOWTIE Boutique" or "BRIGADE" or [heaven forbid] "The CHEVY SHOP") showroom, generally, for that matter...

The Dealer makes the profit on the parts AND installation. The Customer has "Factory-approved" parts AND installation AND Warranty, and only ONE place to go if a problem occurs. And the Manufacturer has more profit$, happy Dealers, happy Customers...and a greater likelihood of retained business for Sales, Service, AND Parts...

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about as far as a "formal relationship" between GM and GM PP...

It speaks directly to why GM is building the ZL1...not ALL that LS3 hop-up money needs to go to SLP/LPE etc...but THIS sort of "program", assuming certain Parts sold by GM PP are New Vehicle-worthy and -certified and -validated, opens all manner of profit opportunities...and encourages the Aftermarket to construct and deliver OE-validation/complient products.

Right, Pete?

Look at the relationship that has grown between SEMA and GM/Ford/Mopar etc. Significant dollar$ $pent for the first week of November, and the indoor car-show season beyond, trying to get the message across to the enthusiasts that the OEMs are "hip to the cause". Each OEM has their own "performance parts" operations...and, unfortunately, a SEPARATE MISSION without, generally, a New Car Showroom parts display presence OR a New Car upfit presence. That's like swimmin' half way 'cross the creek...and turnin' around!

Take a look at this TOTAL Forum...how many modifications? By how many folks? And how much of that was through GM PP? How much was done at/by a Camaro Dealer? How much was already on the car before/at New Car Delivery? How many folks are waitin' and savin' for this or that? To be bought from whom, or from where?

How many could/should already HAVE it? Covered in their payments?

GM goes to great lengths to arrange "measuring sessions" for soon-to-arrive New Vehicles. How much of that stuff will ever have a GM/GM PP part number? Could MORE be made available? Could MORE be licensed? Could MORE be done?

After all, it IS "new" GM...sorry, Number 3, just had to stick that in...

Really, folks, there's NOT all that much truly "new" stuff/ways/procedures...but there IS a "new" way of lookin' at what IS "out there"... You don't have to "reinvent the wheel". And there's no shame in adapting others' ideas, where meritorious...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-24-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 07-24-2011, 01:34 PM   #666
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Number 3 maybe I should have said I'd like to see GM thinking outside the box instead of comparing new to old. I've worked for both small and larger companies and can see the difficulty in steering a barge vs a sailboat. Now I'll refer you back to Lowdown's post. Still friends?
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Old 07-24-2011, 02:04 PM   #667
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I am a little confused..... GMPP does have items you can have the dealer install and keep your waranty. Are you saying you wish it was more of a extensive program???
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:11 PM   #668
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No disagreement here. But there are two ways to do this. One is to make some assumptions on the parts and let the dealers intstall them.

The other is to assume all the liability and warranty for those parts. Which mean that they meet or exceed ALL of GM's specifications.

So lets just speculate that there is an example of an aftermarket part that GM wanted to put on it's cars. But when this well know part was tested to GMs standards it FAILED.

Now keep in mind, the aftermarket company does not take the hit for quality, GM does.

So GM takes the more conservative approach and actually assures that the parts you get are up to snuff. It's just that way.

Did you know that the accessory wheels available at GM are run to all of GMs durabilty tests? Yep, they are. GM will not make assumptions on the "goodness" of the parts. So they have to be tested to our standards, not theirs.

Now that being said, could GM do more? Sure they could. But just like most things regarding GM and the Camaro, it isn't as easy as thumbing through a catalogue and picking out parts that you want to cover the warranty for.

And no risk of friendship.

Now GM does offer a lot of parts for the Camaro that fit the bill here through gmpartsdirect.com. But those are mostly dress up items with some exhaust. Could there be chassis upgrades? Yes, but now I have to go retest a lot of things. A performance calibration? Yes, but the same thing occurs. I have to go and retest.

Not sure what other OEMs do but GM does seem to be a little conservative on chassis and powertrain.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:45 PM   #669
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If it makes money it will continue.
SecondChance, I am not in the know like Number3 and certain others, but I would be very, very surprised if the LSA went into the new 6th Gen. chassis no matter how well it sells. I could be really wrong, but I do not see the 6.2 engine in the next Camaro.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:49 PM   #670
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Open question to all:

Other than the Chevy built show car LS7 Camaro built for the SEMA show two years ago, has any one built a Camaro with stock LS7 power and off the shelf suspension to see what this car would actually do?
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:16 PM   #671
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youtube has your answer.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:22 PM   #672
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Quote:
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SecondChance, I am not in the know like Number3 and certain others, but I would be very, very surprised if the LSA went into the new 6th Gen. chassis no matter how well it sells. I could be really wrong, but I do not see the 6.2 engine in the next Camaro.
Obviously a ZL1 does not need a specific ZL1 engine.
If they can make money on the car they will find a way to provide a 6Gen ZL1.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:52 PM   #673
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Obviously a ZL1 does not need a specific ZL1 engine.
If they can make money on the car they will find a way to provide a 6Gen ZL1.
They will but, it will be called Z28.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:58 PM   #674
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youtube has your answer.
I found Ligenfelter's S/C LS7 but not a NA LS7 2010/11 Camaro.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:50 PM   #675
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No disagreement here. But there are two ways to do this. One is to make some assumptions on the parts and let the dealers intstall them.

The other is to assume all the liability and warranty for those parts. Which mean that they meet or exceed ALL of GM's specifications.

So lets just speculate that there is an example of an aftermarket part that GM wanted to put on it's cars. But when this well know part was tested to GMs standards it FAILED.

Now keep in mind, the aftermarket company does not take the hit for quality, GM does.

So GM takes the more conservative approach and actually assures that the parts you get are up to snuff. It's just that way.

Did you know that the accessory wheels available at GM are run to all of GMs durabilty tests? Yep, they are. GM will not make assumptions on the "goodness" of the parts. So they have to be tested to our standards, not theirs.

Now that being said, could GM do more? Sure they could. But just like most things regarding GM and the Camaro, it isn't as easy as thumbing through a catalogue and picking out parts that you want to cover the warranty for.

And no risk of friendship.

Now GM does offer a lot of parts for the Camaro that fit the bill here through gmpartsdirect.com. But those are mostly dress up items with some exhaust. Could there be chassis upgrades? Yes, but now I have to go retest a lot of things. A performance calibration? Yes, but the same thing occurs. I have to go and retest.

Not sure what other OEMs do but GM does seem to be a little conservative on chassis and powertrain.
Agreed, fully.

"Conservative"...does that mean they err on the side of "quality AND safety first and foremost"...or does that mean "we'll do it if/when we get around to it"? An example:

The "Heritage Grille" and "21-inch wheels" first seen on the "Dale Earnhardt Jr. Concept" @ SEMA '08. We contracted the same Tier supplier to built an "exact duplicate" of that car. A couple of problems arose. The Heritage Grille finally arrived in FEB/10...and the exact 21s are still MIA, after countless assurances they'd be available in "2nd 1/4"...then "3rd 1/4"...then "4th 1/4" 2010. These assurances came from GM Parts...direct...in Grand Blanc. We're now in 3rd 1/4 '11...good thing we substituted the SLP 20" versions and delivered the car only ONE YEAR after initial order...

As I mentioned in my initial post, certification and validation takes time. "Others" have assigned "specs" that MUST BE MET. Wheel specs are NOT new, or news, to Tier suppliers. Neither is "testing". It's not the first time GM would go to an existing Tier supplier, ask for something specific to be built to a very specific set of criteria (be they SAE or otherwise), expecting a timely result with a proper product that passes timely testing...and coordinate that product's availability through their existing Parts system.

But 16+ months for an Accessory GRILLE...and the still-missing "promised" WHEELS after almost 3 YEARS?

Simply two examples...

Is this a case of "priorities", or "changing markets"...or benign neglect? "Someone" ain't "minding the store"...and this is literally costing GM million$...

...and NO, this is NOT intended to put ANYONE on the spot. But it IS, in the very least, puzzling AND frustrating. From a consumer's point of view as well as a supplier's point of view.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:54 PM   #676
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SecondChance, I am not in the know like Number3 and certain others, but I would be very, very surprised if the LSA went into the new 6th Gen. chassis no matter how well it sells. I could be really wrong, but I do not see the 6.2 engine in the next Camaro.
I doubt the LSA will make it to the 6th gen too. But thats only because I expect the entire gen IV family of engines to be dead by that time. When the gen V engines come, I fully expect to see a forced induction variant of their mainstream performance V8 for use in their top tier performance cars, replacing both the LSA and LS9.
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:19 PM   #677
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Open question to all:

Other than the Chevy built show car LS7 Camaro built for the SEMA show two years ago, has any one built a Camaro with stock LS7 power and off the shelf suspension to see what this car would actually do?
As stated, and agreed to, the LSA crate engine and the LS7 crate engine cost almost the same, over the counter. The LSA is MORE...at least by "conventional wisdom"...and essentially an OEM-supplied version of the Maggie/Eaton, highly popular conversion. "Easy money". EVERYONE wants one, don't ya know?!

The LS7, as found in the crate, is dry-sumped. "Packaging problems" ensue. Forget the weight penalty. Forget the ultimate vehicle dynamics.

There WERE discussions, direct with GM PP, to do ONE LS7-powered Camaro, late '09, but the outside development funding di$appeared before the project started. Had that project borne the fruit that was expected, there would already be a "ZEE" in the marketplace...!!! And, although he is personally unaware of this specific project, Pete would have been involved...along with a particular "outsourced" Pedder's-friendly and -inclined GM chassis engineer...

Ergo, my particular, and specific, passion for this car...

"Close...but no cigar..."
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:43 PM   #678
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They will but, it will be called Z28.
???
Thats' the point they are 2 different cars with different missions.
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:21 AM   #679
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Quote:
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I found Ligenfelter's S/C LS7 but not a NA LS7 2010/11 Camaro.
I had found one made by ADM but the more I looked into it. some had just taken a couple LS7 eng covers and slapped them on the ls3. oh well. there are a lot of ls7 2010 camaros, just none are stock. I found one with 561 hp but had full exhaust and cam. . .but they are on there.
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:35 AM   #680
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According to Automotive News, via gminsidenews.com, the Gen-5 Camaro appears essentially untouched through MY 2014.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...2014-a-104659/

That would appear to allow something between 18-24 months "available" for a Gen-5 Camaro Z/28, if you give the ZL1 a 6-12 month "head start".

Keep in mind Ford stated the BOSS was a 2-MY build, only...
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