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Old 07-25-2011, 06:45 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
GM,
Use the LS7 before it fades into oblivion! Make a car that declares we at GM love our street/track enthusiast! A car that will be remembered for the fact that GM could and they did! Just build it!!!
Ha haaaaaa. It's called a Z06

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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I think your right.
$7,000. Difference between the LS7 & LS3. Then $31,000. For a SS1. $2,000. For the suspension. Wheels, HD drivetrain & Misc. $3,000. - $4,000. More = $43,000.+. All from the parts bin. Just think of how easy it would be to market a 427 Z28,

Oh, what dreams are made of.
I'll buy one right now! Just badge it Z28!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not Number 3?
You know we are full agreement.

It's almost like we are listening to one of those tribute albums.................but instead of a bunch of groups covering various songs, this is a bunch of groups doing a cover of the same song.................."Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"

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Originally Posted by GearBangr View Post
LS7 block
LS7 crank
PM rods
LS7 pistons
LS3 heads and intake

470 HP 470 TQ

There, 427 inch motor, way cheaper than LS7
and more under the curve power than a hopped up LS3
But now you've created an engine that does not exist and this creates more work..............and time. What you have essentially created is a bored and stroked LS3 but one that won't rev as high (reciprocating mass and titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves), it might not rev as high as an LS3 simply because of the heavier connecting rods.

This seems like a lot of trouble for 44 HP. Honestly not sure which is less work............tweaking an LS3 or this all new beast.

But now you have to ask where would you build this? The only 427 tooling is in Wixom for hand building. If you build it in Wixom, you save a bunch on exotic parts, but still have the expense of a low volume engine assembly.
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Old 07-25-2011, 07:19 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"
I dont want it now.... I want it when its right!
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:51 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Ha haaaaaa. It's called a Z06



You know we are full agreement.

It's almost like we are listening to one of those tribute albums.................but instead of a bunch of groups covering various songs, this is a bunch of groups doing a cover of the same song.................."Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"



But now you've created an engine that does not exist and this creates more work..............and time. What you have essentially created is a bored and stroked LS3 but one that won't rev as high (reciprocating mass and titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves), it might not rev as high as an LS3 simply because of the heavier connecting rods.

This seems like a lot of trouble for 44 HP. Honestly not sure which is less work............tweaking an LS3 or this all new beast.

But now you have to ask where would you build this? The only 427 tooling is in Wixom for hand building. If you build it in Wixom, you save a bunch on exotic parts, but still have the expense of a low volume engine assembly.
Number 3, this post made me feel warm all over!!!
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:55 AM   #684
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Number 3, without delving deeply into the "whys" and the "wherefores" of Production Engine development, a perusal of GM PP's LS3+ crate engines (which are NOT "Production Engines") reveals one interesting tidbit...fuel requirements. The LS3-480 hp requires 92-octane giz-o-line which, if I'm not mistaken, is NOT available in the Golden State of California. I dare say CA's potential sales would be deemed "important" to any "business case".

Add in the LS3's 6600 rpm limits because of their powdered rods and nodular cranks and you arrive at a conclusion that they are inherently inferior to the metallurgy and engineering present in the LS7, not as rev-able...and NOT as "mystical" as a "427 Camaro".

The LS7, at 505 hp, is a starting point for those interested in "more". Clearly, these engines (limited by their hypereutectic pistons) are capable of "more"...much more... Specs follow, as per GM PP (http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/Pa...jsp?engine=2):

LS 376/480:

Block (P/N 12584727): Cast Aluminum with 6-bolt, cross-bolted main caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.06 x 3.62 (103.25 x 92mm)

Camshaft duration (@.050 in): 219 degree intake / 228 degree exhaust

Camshaft type (P/N 88958733): Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 10.7:1

Connecting rods (P/N 12617570): Powdered metal

Crankshaft (P/N 12597569): Nodular

Cylinder heads (P/N 12598594): LS3 rectangle port; as cast with 68cc chambers

Displacement (cu in): 376 cu in (6.2L)

Maximum recommended RPM: 6600

Recommended fuel: 92 octane

Valve lift (in): .525" intake / .525" exhaust

Valve size (in): 2.16 int / 1.59 exhaust


LS7/505:

Block Part Number (17802854): Cast aluminum w/6-bolt steel main bearing caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.125 x 4.00 (104.8 mm x 101.6 mm)

Camshaft Duration: 211 degree intake / 230 degree exhaust

Camshaft lift (in): .591" (15 mm) Intake and Exhaust

Camshaft Part Number: P/N 12571251

Camshaft type: Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 11.0:1

Connecting rods Type: Forged titanium

Crankshaft Part Number 12568819: Forged steel

Cylinder head Part Number: 12578450

Cylinder head Type: CNC Ported LS7 specific pattern 70 cc CNC combustion chambers

Displacement (cu in): 427 (7.0L)

Maximum rpm: 7000

Pistons Type: Hypereutectic aluminum

Recommended fuel: 91 octane

Valve size (in): 2.20" titanium intake, 1.61" sodium filled exhaust


For those potentially offended by the thoughts (and price) of an LS7-engined 427 Z/28, well, we'll just call it a "COPO"...
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:12 AM   #685
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I really really want a 5Gen LS7 Z28...BAD!
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:25 AM   #686
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I really really want a 5Gen LS7 Z28...BAD!
2cnd chance, don't give it a 2cnd thought...
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:23 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Number 3, without delving deeply into the "whys" and the "wherefores" of Production Engine development, a perusal of GM PP's LS3+ crate engines (which are NOT "Production Engines") reveals one interesting tidbit...fuel requirements. The LS3-480 hp requires 92-octane giz-o-line which, if I'm not mistaken, is NOT available in the Golden State of California. I dare say CA's potential sales would be deemed "important" to any "business case".

Add in the LS3's 6600 rpm limits because of their powdered rods and nodular cranks and you arrive at a conclusion that they are inherently inferior to the metallurgy and engineering present in the LS7, not as rev-able...and NOT as "mystical" as a "427 Camaro".

The LS7, at 505 hp, is a starting point for those interested in "more". Clearly, these engines (limited by their hypereutectic pistons) are capable of "more"...much more... Specs follow, as per GM PP (http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/Pa...jsp?engine=2):

LS 376/480:

Block (P/N 12584727): Cast Aluminum with 6-bolt, cross-bolted main caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.06 x 3.62 (103.25 x 92mm)

Camshaft duration (@.050 in): 219 degree intake / 228 degree exhaust

Camshaft type (P/N 88958733): Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 10.7:1

Connecting rods (P/N 12617570): Powdered metal

Crankshaft (P/N 12597569): Nodular

Cylinder heads (P/N 12598594): LS3 rectangle port; as cast with 68cc chambers

Displacement (cu in): 376 cu in (6.2L)

Maximum recommended RPM: 6600

Recommended fuel: 92 octane

Valve lift (in): .525" intake / .525" exhaust

Valve size (in): 2.16 int / 1.59 exhaust


LS7/505:

Block Part Number (17802854): Cast aluminum w/6-bolt steel main bearing caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.125 x 4.00 (104.8 mm x 101.6 mm)

Camshaft Duration: 211 degree intake / 230 degree exhaust

Camshaft lift (in): .591" (15 mm) Intake and Exhaust

Camshaft Part Number: P/N 12571251

Camshaft type: Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 11.0:1

Connecting rods Type: Forged titanium

Crankshaft Part Number 12568819: Forged steel

Cylinder head Part Number: 12578450

Cylinder head Type: CNC Ported LS7 specific pattern 70 cc CNC combustion chambers

Displacement (cu in): 427 (7.0L)

Maximum rpm: 7000

Pistons Type: Hypereutectic aluminum

Recommended fuel: 91 octane

Valve size (in): 2.20" titanium intake, 1.61" sodium filled exhaust


For those potentially offended by the thoughts (and price) of an LS7-engined 427 Z/28, well, we'll just call it a "COPO"...
I have to go with you that there is as good of a chance for the hot cam LS3 to make it to the Z28 as the LS7. And I believe the LS 376/480 actually has more power below 6600 rpm (redline) than the LS7 if you compare them at the respective rpm.
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:46 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by flopjack View Post
I have to go with you that there is as good of a chance for the hot cam LS3 to make it to the Z28 as the LS7. And I believe the LS 376/480 actually has more power below 6600 rpm (redline) than the LS7 if you compare them at the respective rpm.
Actually, that would put you "against" me. You will NOT see a 49-state LS3+ "ZEE", was my point... Sorry for any confusion.

As to an LS7 427 Camaro, if someone of importance doesn't like the thought of it being called a "Z/28" (as happened with the Z/28 cum ZL1), then call the damn thing a COPO. At least GM owns that name, and no "consideration" would be required/expected...

And NO...I do NOT want Barry Manilow doing a theme-song of the "COPO CAMARO"...!!!

EDIT:

Please keep in mind the "Heritage" (with a purposeful capital H) at play here. Gen-1 derived styling. Gen-1 derived naming.

The original Z/28 was a homolagation-purposed vehicle, with a sub-305" engine, for Trans Am qualification. An "interim" offering. That's why only 602 were sold in '67. No one really knew about it...and it wasn't in the brochure.

Had it NOT been for the 305"-max ruling by SCCA, a Z/28 quite likely would have had the then-current Vette 327-350 hp L79 as its motor-vation. "Off-the-shelf". EASY.

The '69 ZL1 was an answer to NHRA's Super Stock requirement of "50-minimum", "Production-built". Like the Hemi 'Cudas and Darts of '68. Only Chev could do it totally on an assembly-line. Sadly, the beancounters decided ALL COSTS were to be passed along...$4,160 option!!

That rationale exists today. "Play all you want, but the costs get passed along". So, in a timely fashion, enhancing an LS3 to Production standards comes with a price. Even more complex and expensive than it was in '69. While the LS7 sits at Wixom, waiting...far less "development" required. Far less cost per unit to "prepare for Production", if you will.

THAT'S why the poll, a month ago, with only a "$5,000 differential"...and THAT'S why displacement is NOT an issue... COSTS are (and always will be). The disparity between a "hot" LS3 and an on-the-shelf ready-to-go LS7 is LESS than the costs "in the crate"...or, at least, should be...

As to what's "under the cam", man I'm only concerned about "ON-CAM"...and that, my friends, plays to the LS7! Just like it did with the lil 302 back in the day...

More "Heritage"!

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-26-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:23 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by flopjack View Post
I have to go with you that there is as good of a chance for the hot cam LS3 to make it to the Z28 as the LS7. And I believe the LS 376/480 actually has more power below 6600 rpm (redline) than the LS7 if you compare them at the respective rpm.
Not really.
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Name:  LS376-480.jpg
Views: 224
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The LS376 has a bit more power in the midrange, but the LS7 beats it both down low and up top. Plus, we know that the LS7 meets all of GM's durability & emissions requirements for passenger car applications. Can't say the same thing for the LS376.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:36 PM   #690
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...and if you visit a Vette Z06 forum, or LS1 forum, you'll know @ 505/470 the LS7 ain't breakin' a sweat...
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:15 PM   #691
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Number 3,

Is there a minimum number of LS7's that must be made each year? and is the Z06 maintaining this number safely?
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:14 PM   #692
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Blizzard, Z06 Production Figures are as follows:

2006 = 6272
2007 = 8159
2008 = 7731
2009 = 3461
2010 = 518 (!); ZR1 = 1577

* Does not include "crate engine" production

I'd say there's room @ the Wixom Inn for LS7 "occupancy"...
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:17 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Blizzard, Z06 Production Figures are as follows:

2006 = 6272
2007 = 8159
2008 = 7731
2009 = 3461
2010 = 518 (!)

* Does not include "crate engine" production

I'd say there's room @ the Inn for LS7 "occupancy"...
This is what I am guessing, but I still think there is some news about the GenV V8's to come shortly with relation to the Z28.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:24 PM   #694
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According to GM's "tentative" production plans, the next-Gen Vette is slated for MY-14...sometime in '13?...and Gen-6 Camaro for MY-15...so will we see a next-Gen V8 in a this-Gen Camaro?

That would be a $64 (at least!) question...

If there's an "edict" that the new V8 is Vette-first, and the Camaro is to follow at a discrete distance, then a current-Gen Z/28 requires a current-Gen ready-to-go powerplant.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:35 PM   #695
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According to GM's "tentative" production plans, the next-Gen Vette is slated for MY-14...sometime in '13?...and Gen-6 Camaro for MY-15...so will we see a next-Gen V8 in a this-Gen Camaro?

That would be a $64 (at least!) question...

If there's an "edict" that the new V8 is Vette-first, and the Camaro is to follow at a discrete distance, then a current-Gen Z/28 requires a current-Gen ready-to-go powerplant.
I have no inside information but still hold to my statement that we will hear something about the 2 very soon. But I do love the sound of 2013 Camaro Z28 LS7.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #696
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I do love the sound of 2013 Camaro Z28 LS7.
Just wait till ya HEAR it!!

It'll put the "fear of God" in them-there 'Stang Supervisors...
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:59 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
According to GM's "tentative" production plans, the next-Gen Vette is slated for MY-14...sometime in '13?...and Gen-6 Camaro for MY-15...so will we see a next-Gen V8 in a this-Gen Camaro?

That would be a $64 (at least!) question...

If there's an "edict" that the new V8 is Vette-first, and the Camaro is to follow at a discrete distance, then a current-Gen Z/28 requires a current-Gen ready-to-go powerplant.
With all the tooling that will have to be changed, I just don't see how they can keep building LS3's along side next gen engines. The only way it would work is if they changed plants, but I'm pretty sure they've already announced that they're spending millions on their plant St Catharine's so that it can continue to build V8s when the next gen comes so ...
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