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Old 09-19-2011, 12:52 AM   #1076
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The car is being sold into an environment that will have somebody, at some point, fuel up with 87 at some podunk gas station in the middle of nowhere...they've planned for it, I'm sure. I just hope the fuse pull works.



C0CKTAILS, anyone?
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:45 AM   #1077
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Get your friends to come it and help us. Tomorrow we have free pizza and beer.

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Old 09-19-2011, 09:43 AM   #1078
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:44 AM   #1079
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:49 AM   #1080
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
While, if I had the money, I'd pay more for Z28 than a Z06 if it were superior in every way. Even if I had the money, I might not pass on ZL1 (because that happens to fit what I'm looking for moreso now), but being the CAMARO-nut that I am, it wouldn't even be a question for me. I'm not sure how successful Z28 would be at that price, but I fully support the idea and that those who do have the means would have that choice.

All I care about is that CAMARO is the best it can possibly be and continue it's success. Whether I can afford it or not is of no consequence, however, it should still be attainable by the common man, like almost all CAMAROs of the past. To stray from that would be a big disappointment. While the Z28 you suggest would probably do that, I can make the exception, because I want the Pony from Dearborn to be beat that bad.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:06 AM   #1081
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Pete,
Not for me. If money was not an object I'd buy a Z06 now in all black. I'm looking for the Z28 as has been described. I really want the LS7 in it, it just feels right for the Z28 ideology. I'll light weight it myself.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:14 AM   #1082
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Pete,
Not for me. If money was not an object I'd buy a Z06 now in all black. I'm looking for the Z28 as has been described. I really want the LS7 in it, it just feels right for the Z28 ideology. I'll light weight it myself.
I understand. As the devil's advocate this Monday morning...

What if the Z/28 slotted closer to the ZR1 by every measure?
What if it handled as well as your AC Miata?

OK, the Miata is a stretch
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:24 AM   #1083
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
I can't speak for the Z/28 over ZL1 thing.. But, I would love to have that on my SS.. I have the power now.. I just need the handling and ability to put it all to the ground.. my 11.973 was babying out of the hole.. throw in some nice weight reduction and I'd be very happy with it.

I had a 98 Steeda GT with the full G-Trac set up on it.. Man, that thing would take turns like it was on rail.. It couldn't do straight line for crap due to that 4.6 and the 4R70W slushbox, but man could that thing handle..
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:58 AM   #1084
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I can't speak for the Z/28 over ZL1 thing.. But, I would love to have that on my SS.. I have the power now.. I just need the handling and ability to put it all to the ground.. my 11.973 was babying out of the hole.. throw in some nice weight reduction and I'd be very happy with it.

I had a 98 Steeda GT with the full G-Trac set up on it.. Man, that thing would take turns like it was on rail.. It couldn't do straight line for crap due to that 4.6 and the 4R70W slushbox, but man could that thing handle..
I can help you with that
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:04 AM   #1085
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
Pete for that kind of money I would just update the CTS to that other Caddy.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:10 AM   #1086
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I can help you with that
I've read, re-read, thought about, read yet again, etc. that "book" on the site... Even after all that, I'm still taking it all in and planning on things.. Trying to decide what it is I want to do with the car..

This is a DD for me.. Not a dyno queen, not a track only car, etc.. I need more traction in the straight line and in the twisties, but I don't want to push so far to one that I start messing with the other.. I know I need wheels/tires and more susp set up since the only thing I have now is PFADT solid subs and their trailing arms..

Now that I see that Camaro Fest 3 is going to be in Indy.. I really have to get on the ball about beefing up the set up..
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:30 AM   #1087
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I've read, re-read, thought about, read yet again, etc. that "book" on the site... Even after all that, I'm still taking it all in and planning on things.. Trying to decide what it is I want to do with the car..

This is a DD for me.. Not a dyno queen, not a track only car, etc.. I need more traction in the straight line and in the twisties, but I don't want to push so far to one that I start messing with the other.. I know I need wheels/tires and more susp set up since the only thing I have now is PFADT solid subs and their trailing arms..

Now that I see that Camaro Fest 3 is going to be in Indy.. I really have to get on the ball about beefing up the set up..
We can do both. When you have time, give me a call to discuss your strategy.

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Old 09-19-2011, 12:22 PM   #1088
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Old 09-19-2011, 04:48 PM   #1089
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Pete, there are only a few ways I can see another Camaro beating a ZL1 "in every measurable way":

1) Subtituting the LSA with the LS-NINE which, in and of itself, would demand a higher tag...but would contravene the "ZL1 being the mightiest Camaro EVER!" hoopla credited with the "return" of the ZL1 moniker.

2) A serious diet on a ZL1 chassis, with an LS7 as motor-vation and weight-savings initiater.

3) A diet on the soon-to-be LSA'd version. Kinda "ZL1 meets SSX"... Anytime you lose weight, you increase performance. How much performance did you think you need? And how heavy is your money belt?! We'll help you lighten that, too!

As exciting as a Z06-version Camaro would be (which is essentially what we seek, here), to copy the exact Z06 recipe with serious weight reduction and LS7 engine, I think, will seriously dilute the take-rate when all the co$t$ are factored in...and likely add serious development time and dollar$.

In the hierarchy of "Camaro-dom", the Z/28 has rarely been the biggest-ticket version...but HAS been, generally, "Best Bang for the BUCK!" for those thinking in terms of corners instead of straight-lines. Against SS/IROC/SS again, a price advantage for the Z/28 cum Z28 was present...and a weight advantage, by way of SBC vs. BBC (Gen-1/early Gen-2), and then no cladding/doodads vs. festooned with stuff (Gen-3 and -4). 1LE, remember?

IF (caps) such a beast as you describe was made available, methinks a name other than "Z/28" might be required...

For me, at least, a mid-$40s track star, preferably LS7'd, that humbles the BOSS LS is what I would be very happy with, thank you very much!

EDIT:

Of course, the above ramblings are with regard to a GM-built/backed version...

Now, if we're going outside the normal GM-built supply chain, and venturing into the realm of Aftermarket "tuner versions", things can get very interesting...very quickly...but, also, very expensively, relative to OEM substitution of "upgraded componentry". Paying "full pin" for an LS7 upgrade, for instance, over an SS-LS3, bloats the price point. A "tuned" LS3, in some n/a manner, becomes much more viable...and the OEM's mandatory requirements of certification/validation/crashability are not generally required. Potential liability issues, from light-weight engineering AND alternative/non-OEM running gear built into the final product, ARE something not exactly inconsequential for the Aftermarket to factor into final pricing. If Little Jonny or Janie piles up their re-engineered SuperMaro, and it's added-on/substituted components in any way contribute to nasty after-effects, OHOH!!

And...if it's an Aftermarket version, it WILL be named other than "Z/28"...
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:24 PM   #1090
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Pete, there are only a few ways I can see another Camaro beating a ZL1 "in every measurable way":

1) Subtituting the LSA with the LS-NINE which, in and of itself, would demand a higher tag...but would contravene the "ZL1 being the mightiest Camaro EVER!" hoopla credited with the "return" of the ZL1 moniker.

2) A serious diet on a ZL1 chassis, with an LS7 as motor-vation and weight-savings initiater.

3) A diet on the soon-to-be LSA'd version. Kinda "ZL1 meets SSX"... Anytime you lose weight, you increase performance. How much performance did you think you need? And how heavy is your money belt?! We'll help you lighten that, too!

As exciting as a Z06-version Camaro would be (which is essentially what we seek, here), to copy the exact Z06 recipe with serious weight reduction and LS7 engine, I think, will seriously dilute the take-rate when all the co$t$ are factored in...and likely add serious development time and dollar$.

In the hierarchy of "Camaro-dom", the Z/28 has rarely been the biggest-ticket version...but HAS been, generally, "Best Bang for the BUCK!" for those thinking in terms of corners instead of straight-lines. Against SS/IROC/SS again, a price advantage for the Z/28 cum Z28 was present...and a weight advantage, by way of SBC vs. BBC (Gen-1/early Gen-2), and then no cladding/doodads vs. festooned with stuff (Gen-3 and -4). 1LE, remember?

IF (caps) such a beast as you describe was made available, methinks a name other than "Z/28" might be required...

For me, at least, a mid-$40s track star, preferably LS7'd, that humbles the BOSS LS is what I would be very happy with, thank you very much!


Very well said as always.

If I'm paying BIG $$$$$ for a car it's going to have the letter V in it somewhere....

Vanna is there a Z?
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Old 09-19-2011, 06:32 PM   #1091
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In the new pics in the ZL1 section under the Track Version ZL1 look close and it appears there is a naca duct inlet in front of the rear wheel well covered by the black mesh. Add that to the missing aero peices and fake looking hood hoodpinned to an obvious real hood underneath... Guys I'm feelin' Z28.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:13 PM   #1092
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I understand. As the devil's advocate this Monday morning...

What if the Z/28 slotted closer to the ZR1 by every measure?
What if it handled as well as your AC Miata?

OK, the Miata is a stretch
The argument against calling the ZL1 a Z28 was that the "Z28" was a track-focused car...ultra-high power was not an ingredient. And apparently GM agreed in principle. So how is amplifying that established "bad formula" to a new extreme....a Z28?
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:47 PM   #1093
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The argument against calling the ZL1 a Z28 was that the "Z28" was a track-focused car...ultra-high power was not an ingredient. And apparently GM agreed in principle. So how is amplifying that established "bad formula" to a new extreme....a Z28?
Well, what i think Pete is saying that all the frills of the ZL1 will be gone, which equals weight loss......including MR and the supercharger....... now you keep all the oil & diff coolers, put Supercar Coilovers on it, with an aggresive 427 in there... and it is a purpose built track machine that could quite possibly outperform the ZL1..

So the heritage of the Z28 is preserved do to the "better" track suspension, reduced weight, possibly ram air.... (look at some of the actual Racing camaros)... due to power to weight ratios..... it could happen...

am I getting the point pete
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:49 PM   #1094
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Well, what i think Pete is saying that all the frills of the ZL1 will be gone, which equals weight loss......including MR and the supercharger....... now you keep all the oil & diff coolers, put Supercar Coilovers on it, with an aggresive 427 in there... and it is a purpose built track machine that could quite possibly outperform the ZL1..

So the heritage of the Z28 is preserved do to the "better" track suspension, reduced weight, possibly ram air.... (look at some of the actual Racing camaros)... due to power to weight ratios..... it could happen...

am I getting the point pete
That wouldn't outperform a ZL1 in all respects. Pete's talking Z06-KILLING performance...
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:16 PM   #1095
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Good luck with the 100k+ Camaro, because that would most likely be the number to be a Z06 Killer.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:25 PM   #1096
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
Sure, why not? Doing it yourself is going to cost twice as much.
Suspension upgraades, engine upgrades, and now a stroked / forged engine, and supercharger will literally walk the ZL1 but definately costs more.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:26 PM   #1097
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Good luck with the 100k+ Camaro, because that would most likely be the number to be a Z06 Killer.
Over a buck, it would need to be a ZR1 Killer
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:42 PM   #1098
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Hmm how much would a handmade aluminum frame, carbon fiber body panels and a twin turbo 6.2 cost? LOL, I take two ZR-1's Thank You.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:27 AM   #1099
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There have been sources that have stated that the ZL1 was very close to the top speed of the Grand Am Continental Tire series GS.R at VIR. The GS.R is a base 426hp LS3 at a race weight of 3350lbs, while a 3900lb, 505hp car would obviously struggle with weight, better VIR lap times come from handling the violent "S's". Depending on the lap time, I could see a vast improvement in a lighter car. While the CTS-V pulled a 144mph top speed at VIR (which is around where the ZL1 is said to be) the CTS-V still could not out handle the GT500 throughout the rest of the track. During that run, the GT500 only pulled a 137mph (same as the 5.0) down the back stretch but still bested the CTS-V due to the weight and S bends. Once the GT500 reaches 142-145mph on that stretch, the lap time dropped to 2:58.48 down from 3:04.

In tracks with elevation changes and repeated S bends, a lighter car, regardless of horsepower will likely take a more powerful car. Even on a very fast track like Willow, the Boss was only half a second off the GT500. Everywhere else the Boss pulls ahead because it is easier to handle. At VIR, being 3800lbs and being subjected to the S bends is a violent and scary experience. The CTS-V and GT500 were pulling between 1.1 and 1.5gs at 60-90mph, the difference (and reason the CTS-V lost) was due to the 5-6mph loss the Caddy let up due to excessive Gs. With a 505hp, 3900lb car, it wouldn't be far fetched to think that although the Z28 couldn't reach 145mph, it would dominate the ZL1 throughout the entire track. I can easily see top speeds reaching 140mph with those stats...

And that would be the first 3 laps @ 3 minutes per lap, lap 4 would have the ZL1 heat soaked and its only advantage (power) would be lost. Two cars, both close to 500hp, one weighing 300lbs more. That power to weight ratio would begin to fluctuate drastically in the ZL1 and still... the Z28 would be cheaper...

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Old 09-20-2011, 11:36 AM   #1100
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Nothing for nothing here..but I wonder why does the LS7 have to be reserved for the Corvette as it seemingly appears to be? Why can't the current configuration be placed in a Camaro with a wet sump? Why can't we use the ZL1 drivetrain with a LS7 on a lowered FE4 enhanced(Pedders) suspension with the wheels and tires to match? Why can't the LS7 have a functional hood scoop with ram air and a low restriction exhaust system? Nothing more, nothing less. That in my mind would be worthy enough for the legendary Z28 moniker without all the emphasis as to what it can do on a skip pad versus this competitor or what times it brings in at the "Ring versus that competitor. What do you think? We have discussed these things and tossed them all about. It's not like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Keep it simple. Please bring it back.
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