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Old 07-22-2011, 06:02 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Yo THREE!

We have simplified. Now YOU have to work YOUR magic on the Z/28. Price point is certainly a key component, but what other features of the Z/28 will draw in buyers from Ford and a wide range of imports? An LS7 is mission critical. The allure of the LS7, a special wheel and tire fitment and badging would be enough. We take the FE4 and run with it. Brembo makes a two piece front rotor for the CTS-V, maybe we use a few other 'lightweight' off the shelf bits i.e. Brembo two piece front CTS-V rotors, CTS-V front calipers, titanium exhaust and we have a Z/28 priced between the SS and ZL1.

At least we think we do. We would like you to do a reality check for us or better yet tell Al you have the Z/28 sorted out.
To me what Pete is saying makes perfect sense. It's logical. People want the Z-28 now. It won't hurt sales of either high performance model of Camaro. It will offer choice. It will open the market up and bring buyers into the fold. Chevy has a big tent. Let's make it bigger. Pedder's is a premiere authority on the subject and out of respect to their accomplishments I listen to what they say. Their insight and development in conjunction with GM could save lots of GM think tank time and get this baby on the road without alot of grief. Off the shelf, proven, already tested and certified parts and assemblies from the vast GM power arsenal are waiting. Beefed up drivetrain goodies from the ZL1 add to the firepower. It's all there....it's a beautiful plan Pete. Oh Chevy, there's a plan you might wanna hash out that could be another homerun waiting. You still got hits left in your GEN5 Camaro bat! Win, lose or draw Pete thanks for trying to bring this to fruition.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:45 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
Volume, margin, & development/production cost.

Contrary to popular belief, GM isn't in the business of selling cars. They're in the business of making money. If they can make more by adding the Z28 to the lineup, chances are they'll do it. If they can't ... they won't (unless Lutz did more damage to the bean counting division than previously thought).

I'm a corporate manager, I get that. Its just that almost all the pieces are available for a self promoting product. Appears to be a no brainer. I know that I don't know what I don't know. Ya know?
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:10 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
To me what Pete is saying makes perfect sense. It's logical. People want the Z-28 now. It won't hurt sales of either high performance model of Camaro. It will offer choice. It will open the market up and bring buyers into the fold. Chevy has a big tent. Let's make it bigger. Pedder's is a premiere authority on the subject and out of respect to their accomplishments I listen to what they say. Their insight and development in conjunction with GM could save lots of GM think tank time and get this baby on the road without alot of grief. Off the shelf, proven, already tested and certified parts and assemblies from the vast GM power arsenal are waiting. Beefed up drivetrain goodies from the ZL1 add to the firepower. It's all there....it's a beautiful plan Pete. Oh Chevy, there's a plan you might wanna hash out that could be another homerun waiting. You still got hits left in your GEN5 Camaro bat! Win, lose or draw Pete thanks for trying to bring this to fruition.
But sadly by this simple plan you are, 6 months from introduction, blatantly stating for all to see that as great as the ZL1 is...........................it just ain't enough. Awesome marketing plan for that top o the line, best, awesomest Camaro ever made. That's what you are up against. It would be like announcing at an electronics show that you have a new fabulous iPhone 5 that is the best iPhone EVER. But before it comes to market you announce another iPhone that simply clutters the message of how the other iPhone, although the best iPhone ever engineered, doesn't quite do what you REALLY want an iPhone to do.

At this point, you have to accept that the ZL1 will be the best Camaro EVER...............................and then wait a while and hope there is a business case for a Camaro that isn't the best EVER, but will go around the track a little bit better than the best most technologically advanced Camaro ever built.

Summary.................you are up against yourself.

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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I'm a corporate manager, I get that. Its just that almost all the pieces are available for a self promoting product. Appears to be a no brainer. I know that I don't know what I don't know. Ya know?
Yes.............................strangely, I know exactly what you mean.
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:16 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
To me what Pete is saying makes perfect sense. It's logical. People want the Z-28 now. It won't hurt sales of either high performance model of Camaro. It will offer choice. It will open the market up and bring buyers into the fold. Chevy has a big tent. Let's make it bigger. Pedder's is a premiere authority on the subject and out of respect to their accomplishments I listen to what they say. Their insight and development in conjunction with GM could save lots of GM think tank time and get this baby on the road without alot of grief. Off the shelf, proven, already tested and certified parts and assemblies from the vast GM power arsenal are waiting. Beefed up drivetrain goodies from the ZL1 add to the firepower. It's all there....it's a beautiful plan Pete. Oh Chevy, there's a plan you might wanna hash out that could be another homerun waiting. You still got hits left in your GEN5 Camaro bat! Win, lose or draw Pete thanks for trying to bring this to fruition.
You give us far too much credit. The Z/28 WE specd out earlier today is not my idea or a Pedders idea. Everyone in the thread contributed to it. I just put it in a single post.
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:52 PM   #649
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Number 3, at the risk of alienation, I personally (and that's ALL I speak for, here...) will NOT be waiting with bated breath for the "official GM version" of an SLP ZL585...'cause, if I was, I'd already have one. And THAT is the singular hole in this whole Team-think...

Again (it's only me...), I want what so clearly has been laid out throughout the now-almost-700 posts and 28 pages of this-here thread: I want a Camaro Z06. More power, with NO MORE WEIGHT. More "feel". More "neutrality". More "balance". More "gription". NO MORE WEIGHT. NO MORE ELECTRONIC NANNIES. I'll drive the mofo. When/as required, in a "safe environment". Like a surgeon uses a scalpel. NOT an electronic lazer-guided sawzall that feels like a scalpel, kinda-sorta. BOTH will get admirable results. But MY satisfaction is doing it with "talent" and "finesse (real, or imagined...), NOT "better living through electronics". I have nothing against Delphi and/or Bosch, but I DO have something against 150 needless pounds stuck on the nose of my favorite pursuit...MY ZEE. And NOT "augmented" (some might say "band-aided") by a more weighty suspension.

I don't want "King Kong". I don't want a Donkey Kong. I want what chases King Kong's ass back to the Sea of Japan...a samuri who's NOT afraid of the size of his "sword"...

As to the specifics, it strikes me as short-sighted, frankly, if the Team is NOT co-developing a ZEE along with the ZL1...already... So much can be shared, and therefore co$t$ can be spread over more units. And piece-costs reduced. Against BOTH existing "benchmarks": GT 500 AND BOSS LS.

ZEE-specific and/or shared:

Power-to-weight? LS7. Wet-sumped.
Brakes? Brembos. BIG ones, upfront. 2-piece rotors.
Chassis? Harder durometer bushings. Pete, what are the Part numbers? FE4. Gription Supreme rubber. On forged wheels.
Driveline? CTS-V diff/axles...like the ZL1. Along with the HD Tremec. Like the ZL1.
Appearance? Splitter/spoiler, ZL1-derived. Aero-correct. MANDATORY.
Paint/Stripes/Differentiation? What's left in the budget to extract heat, "lightly"...
Price-point? BOSS LS territory.
Sales? Figure on 10 FULL DAYS' Production, to start... "Oshawa, can you handle that?!"

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-22-2011 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:29 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Number 3, at the risk of alienation, I personally (and that's ALL I speak for, here...) will NOT be waiting with bated breath for the "official GM version" of an SLP ZL585...'cause, if I was, I'd already have one. And THAT is the singular hole in this whole Team-think...

Again (it's only me...), I want what so clearly has been laid out throughout the now-almost-700 posts and 28 pages of this-here thread: I want a Camaro Z06. More power, with NO MORE WEIGHT. More "feel". More "neutrality". More "balance". More "gription". NO MORE WEIGHT. NO MORE ELECTRONIC NANNIES. I'll drive the mofo. When/as required, in a "safe environment". Like a surgeon uses a scalpel. NOT an electronic lazer-guided sawzall that feels like a scalpel, kinda-sorta. BOTH will get admirable results. But MY satisfaction is doing it with "talent" and "finesse (real, or imagined...), NOT "better living through electronics". I have nothing against Delphi and/or Bosch, but I DO have something against 150 needless pounds stuck on the nose of my favorite pursuit...MY ZEE. And NOT "augmented" (some might say "band-aided") by a more weighty suspension.

I don't want "King Kong". I don't want a Donkey Kong. I want what chases King Kong's ass back to the Sea of Japan...a samuri who's NOT afraid of the size of his "sword"...

As to the specifics, it strikes me as short-sighted, frankly, if the Team is NOT co-developing a ZEE along with the ZL1...already... So much can be shared, and therefore co$t$ can be spread over more units. And piece-costs reduced. Against BOTH existing "benchmarks": GT 500 AND BOSS LS.

ZEE-specific and/or shared:

Power-to-weight? LS7. Wet-sumped.
Brakes? Brembos. BIG ones, upfront. 2-piece rotors.
Chassis? Harder durometer bushings. Pete, what are the Part numbers? FE4. Gription Supreme rubber. On forged wheels.
Driveline? CTS-V diff/axles...like the ZL1. Along with the HD Tremec. Like the ZL1.
Appearance? Splitter/spoiler, ZL1-derived. Aero-correct. MANDATORY.
Paint/Stripes/Differentiation? What's left in the budget to extract heat, "lightly"...
Price-point? BOSS LS territory.
Sales? Figure on 10 FULL DAYS' Production, to start... "Oshawa, can you handle that?!"
As you have not called me any names you are far from alienating me.

My comments were more around the "I want it NOW" tone in someones earelier post, not "I want IT" posts with which you and I are pretty much on the same page.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:47 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Number 3, at the risk of alienation, I personally (and that's ALL I speak for, here...) will NOT be waiting with bated breath for the "official GM version" of an SLP ZL585...'cause, if I was, I'd already have one. And THAT is the singular hole in this whole Team-think...

Again (it's only me...), I want what so clearly has been laid out throughout the now-almost-700 posts and 28 pages of this-here thread: I want a Camaro Z06. More power, with NO MORE WEIGHT. More "feel". More "neutrality". More "balance". More "gription". NO MORE WEIGHT. NO MORE ELECTRONIC NANNIES. I'll drive the mofo. When/as required, in a "safe environment". Like a surgeon uses a scalpel. NOT an electronic lazer-guided sawzall that feels like a scalpel, kinda-sorta. BOTH will get admirable results. But MY satisfaction is doing it with "talent" and "finesse (real, or imagined...), NOT "better living through electronics". I have nothing against Delphi and/or Bosch, but I DO have something against 150 needless pounds stuck on the nose of my favorite pursuit...MY ZEE. And NOT "augmented" (some might say "band-aided") by a more weighty suspension.

I don't want "King Kong". I don't want a Donkey Kong. I want what chases King Kong's ass back to the Sea of Japan...a samuri who's NOT afraid of the size of his "sword"...

As to the specifics, it strikes me as short-sighted, frankly, if the Team is NOT co-developing a ZEE along with the ZL1...already... So much can be shared, and therefore co$t$ can be spread over more units. And piece-costs reduced. Against BOTH existing "benchmarks": GT 500 AND BOSS LS.

ZEE-specific and/or shared:

Power-to-weight? LS7. Wet-sumped.
Brakes? Brembos. BIG ones, upfront. 2-piece rotors.
Chassis? Harder durometer bushings. Pete, what are the Part numbers? FE4. Gription Supreme rubber. On forged wheels.
Driveline? CTS-V diff/axles...like the ZL1. Along with the HD Tremec. Like the ZL1.
Appearance? Splitter/spoiler, ZL1-derived. Aero-correct. MANDATORY.
Paint/Stripes/Differentiation? What's left in the budget to extract heat, "lightly"...
Price-point? BOSS LS territory.
Sales? Figure on 10 FULL DAYS' Production, to start... "Oshawa, can you handle that?!"

You had me at Camaro Z06
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:20 AM   #652
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Awesome spirited discussion gentleman, bravo to all! Theres alot of dialogue to digest on this page!!!. It was fast and furious. Thanks Number 3 for the Corporate view and frank discussion. By all measure it looks like we are back at square one. Pushing the envelope and being creative is a common thread for us car guys, for the good or the bad. Reincarnation of the Z right now is a fanciful idea. Could it be done with the ideas presented in this thread? Sure! But would it be proper...not really, not at this time. Number 3 convinced me of that. I for one don't think that it would steal any thunder from the ZL1, and as Pete said, could possibly be brought in for a price between the SS and ZL1. I could settle for that if it could be done...the payments would be easier. Plus, I am a Z-28 guy and, well, you know...it's a loyalty thing. However, I trust in the judgement of GM and if they feel it is not viable then so be it. I am good to go with that and look forward to getting a ZL1 as I have all along. But, I would have a real hard choice to make if I had one between a Z-28 or a ZL1.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:43 AM   #653
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What we don't want to lose sight of is the choice. GM wins every time when the choice is between a SS, Z28 and ZL1. GM can lose when the Choice is between a SS and a GT or Boss or Boss LS or GT500. People in marketing and or product planning have a matrix running on this right now. Not because of the thread, but because it is what they do.

Base SS $34K
Base Z28 $44K
Base ZL1 $54K

For the high performance buyer I see clear choices based on engine choice and price point. I also see conquest sales for Chevrolet at all three price points. With the simplified Z/28 list it really comes down to three items.

1. Can the LS7 and short list of goodies, go into the Z/28 at $44K?
2. Does the market research support what we belive to be true?
3. Does the business case support what we belive to be true?

Wander over to the SS vs Mustang threads on this forum. I get the feeling a large percentage of Ford sales are made over engine choice. That includes the GT Premium Chassis because people are so 'sold' on 'Ford's superior engine technology' (Boss and GT500). Please don't flame me over that line. It is an OBSERVATION. It is my OPINION of what a Ford owner / buyer thinks. It is why I love the LSA choice for the ZL1 and would love the LS7 choice for the Z/28. They put GM's engine technology front and center in the Camaro vs whatever buying decision process.

I should stop before I offend my friends over at GM.

PS: If GM decides to build the Z/28 with a LS7 all I want for compensation is VIN 427

Now that we have made the decision to go forward with the LS7 Z/28 based on this thread, can we talk about the limited production run Camaros. Those would be 100 car runs from LPE and of course the PEDDERS Edition.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:27 AM   #654
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PS: If GM decides to build the Z/28 with a LS7 all I want for compensation is VIN 427

Now that we have made the decision to go forward with the LS7 Z/28 based on this thread, can we talk about the limited production run Camaros. Those would be 100 car runs from LPE and of course the PEDDERS Edition.
not ssx, but SSP or Z/28P
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:30 AM   #655
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I would love to see a dealer installed Pedders option backed by GM. What do ya think Pete?
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:33 AM   #656
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Now that we have made the decision to go forward with the LS7 Z/28 based on this thread, can we talk about the limited production run Camaros. Those would be 100 car runs from LPE and of course the PEDDERS Edition.
So...we need a thread for "Special/Limited Edition GM-Built Camaros We'd Like To See @ 'Hometown Chevrolet' " ? If I wasn't so shy, I'd start that one...
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:33 AM   #657
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I would love to see a dealer installed Pedders option backed by GM. What do ya think Pete?
Do you mean when you order the car? I agree.
I believe you can order the stuff at your dealer and have your dealer install them now and it is fine. That is why I wanted to clarify what you meant.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:40 AM   #658
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I would love to see a dealer installed Pedders option backed by GM. What do ya think Pete?
I don't understand why there is NOT a "formal" relationship between GM Performance Parts and GM Divisions for pre-sale upfits.

Other manufacturers have their "performance boutique" parts that, if supplied/installed prior to first Retail Delivery, carry the Maufacturer's New Vehicle Warranty.

If the OEM-sold parts are up to standards, at premium prices and installed by "Factory-trained techs", and DO NOT COMPROMISE EMISSIONS, then why not?!

[Flame suit suitably worn...]
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