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Old 07-24-2011, 06:52 PM   #673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Obviously a ZL1 does not need a specific ZL1 engine.
If they can make money on the car they will find a way to provide a 6Gen ZL1.
They will but, it will be called Z28.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:58 PM   #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
youtube has your answer.
I found Ligenfelter's S/C LS7 but not a NA LS7 2010/11 Camaro.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:50 PM   #675
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No disagreement here. But there are two ways to do this. One is to make some assumptions on the parts and let the dealers intstall them.

The other is to assume all the liability and warranty for those parts. Which mean that they meet or exceed ALL of GM's specifications.

So lets just speculate that there is an example of an aftermarket part that GM wanted to put on it's cars. But when this well know part was tested to GMs standards it FAILED.

Now keep in mind, the aftermarket company does not take the hit for quality, GM does.

So GM takes the more conservative approach and actually assures that the parts you get are up to snuff. It's just that way.

Did you know that the accessory wheels available at GM are run to all of GMs durabilty tests? Yep, they are. GM will not make assumptions on the "goodness" of the parts. So they have to be tested to our standards, not theirs.

Now that being said, could GM do more? Sure they could. But just like most things regarding GM and the Camaro, it isn't as easy as thumbing through a catalogue and picking out parts that you want to cover the warranty for.

And no risk of friendship.

Now GM does offer a lot of parts for the Camaro that fit the bill here through gmpartsdirect.com. But those are mostly dress up items with some exhaust. Could there be chassis upgrades? Yes, but now I have to go retest a lot of things. A performance calibration? Yes, but the same thing occurs. I have to go and retest.

Not sure what other OEMs do but GM does seem to be a little conservative on chassis and powertrain.
Agreed, fully.

"Conservative"...does that mean they err on the side of "quality AND safety first and foremost"...or does that mean "we'll do it if/when we get around to it"? An example:

The "Heritage Grille" and "21-inch wheels" first seen on the "Dale Earnhardt Jr. Concept" @ SEMA '08. We contracted the same Tier supplier to built an "exact duplicate" of that car. A couple of problems arose. The Heritage Grille finally arrived in FEB/10...and the exact 21s are still MIA, after countless assurances they'd be available in "2nd 1/4"...then "3rd 1/4"...then "4th 1/4" 2010. These assurances came from GM Parts...direct...in Grand Blanc. We're now in 3rd 1/4 '11...good thing we substituted the SLP 20" versions and delivered the car only ONE YEAR after initial order...

As I mentioned in my initial post, certification and validation takes time. "Others" have assigned "specs" that MUST BE MET. Wheel specs are NOT new, or news, to Tier suppliers. Neither is "testing". It's not the first time GM would go to an existing Tier supplier, ask for something specific to be built to a very specific set of criteria (be they SAE or otherwise), expecting a timely result with a proper product that passes timely testing...and coordinate that product's availability through their existing Parts system.

But 16+ months for an Accessory GRILLE...and the still-missing "promised" WHEELS after almost 3 YEARS?

Simply two examples...

Is this a case of "priorities", or "changing markets"...or benign neglect? "Someone" ain't "minding the store"...and this is literally costing GM million$...

...and NO, this is NOT intended to put ANYONE on the spot. But it IS, in the very least, puzzling AND frustrating. From a consumer's point of view as well as a supplier's point of view.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:54 PM   #676
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SecondChance, I am not in the know like Number3 and certain others, but I would be very, very surprised if the LSA went into the new 6th Gen. chassis no matter how well it sells. I could be really wrong, but I do not see the 6.2 engine in the next Camaro.
I doubt the LSA will make it to the 6th gen too. But thats only because I expect the entire gen IV family of engines to be dead by that time. When the gen V engines come, I fully expect to see a forced induction variant of their mainstream performance V8 for use in their top tier performance cars, replacing both the LSA and LS9.
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My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:19 PM   #677
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Open question to all:

Other than the Chevy built show car LS7 Camaro built for the SEMA show two years ago, has any one built a Camaro with stock LS7 power and off the shelf suspension to see what this car would actually do?
As stated, and agreed to, the LSA crate engine and the LS7 crate engine cost almost the same, over the counter. The LSA is MORE...at least by "conventional wisdom"...and essentially an OEM-supplied version of the Maggie/Eaton, highly popular conversion. "Easy money". EVERYONE wants one, don't ya know?!

The LS7, as found in the crate, is dry-sumped. "Packaging problems" ensue. Forget the weight penalty. Forget the ultimate vehicle dynamics.

There WERE discussions, direct with GM PP, to do ONE LS7-powered Camaro, late '09, but the outside development funding di$appeared before the project started. Had that project borne the fruit that was expected, there would already be a "ZEE" in the marketplace...!!! And, although he is personally unaware of this specific project, Pete would have been involved...along with a particular "outsourced" Pedder's-friendly and -inclined GM chassis engineer...

Ergo, my particular, and specific, passion for this car...

"Close...but no cigar..."
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:43 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
They will but, it will be called Z28.
???
Thats' the point they are 2 different cars with different missions.
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:21 AM   #679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldJedi View Post
I found Ligenfelter's S/C LS7 but not a NA LS7 2010/11 Camaro.
I had found one made by ADM but the more I looked into it. some had just taken a couple LS7 eng covers and slapped them on the ls3. oh well. there are a lot of ls7 2010 camaros, just none are stock. I found one with 561 hp but had full exhaust and cam. . .but they are on there.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:35 AM   #680
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According to Automotive News, via gminsidenews.com, the Gen-5 Camaro appears essentially untouched through MY 2014.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...2014-a-104659/

That would appear to allow something between 18-24 months "available" for a Gen-5 Camaro Z/28, if you give the ZL1 a 6-12 month "head start".

Keep in mind Ford stated the BOSS was a 2-MY build, only...
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:45 PM   #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
GM,
Use the LS7 before it fades into oblivion! Make a car that declares we at GM love our street/track enthusiast! A car that will be remembered for the fact that GM could and they did! Just build it!!!
Ha haaaaaa. It's called a Z06

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I think your right.
$7,000. Difference between the LS7 & LS3. Then $31,000. For a SS1. $2,000. For the suspension. Wheels, HD drivetrain & Misc. $3,000. - $4,000. More = $43,000.+. All from the parts bin. Just think of how easy it would be to market a 427 Z28,

Oh, what dreams are made of.
I'll buy one right now! Just badge it Z28!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not Number 3?
You know we are full agreement.

It's almost like we are listening to one of those tribute albums.................but instead of a bunch of groups covering various songs, this is a bunch of groups doing a cover of the same song.................."Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearBangr View Post
LS7 block
LS7 crank
PM rods
LS7 pistons
LS3 heads and intake

470 HP 470 TQ

There, 427 inch motor, way cheaper than LS7
and more under the curve power than a hopped up LS3
But now you've created an engine that does not exist and this creates more work..............and time. What you have essentially created is a bored and stroked LS3 but one that won't rev as high (reciprocating mass and titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves), it might not rev as high as an LS3 simply because of the heavier connecting rods.

This seems like a lot of trouble for 44 HP. Honestly not sure which is less work............tweaking an LS3 or this all new beast.

But now you have to ask where would you build this? The only 427 tooling is in Wixom for hand building. If you build it in Wixom, you save a bunch on exotic parts, but still have the expense of a low volume engine assembly.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:19 PM   #682
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Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"
I dont want it now.... I want it when its right!
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:51 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Ha haaaaaa. It's called a Z06



You know we are full agreement.

It's almost like we are listening to one of those tribute albums.................but instead of a bunch of groups covering various songs, this is a bunch of groups doing a cover of the same song.................."Give me #$%^&ing Z28 now!"



But now you've created an engine that does not exist and this creates more work..............and time. What you have essentially created is a bored and stroked LS3 but one that won't rev as high (reciprocating mass and titanium intake valves and sodium filled exhaust valves), it might not rev as high as an LS3 simply because of the heavier connecting rods.

This seems like a lot of trouble for 44 HP. Honestly not sure which is less work............tweaking an LS3 or this all new beast.

But now you have to ask where would you build this? The only 427 tooling is in Wixom for hand building. If you build it in Wixom, you save a bunch on exotic parts, but still have the expense of a low volume engine assembly.
Number 3, this post made me feel warm all over!!!
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #684
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Number 3, without delving deeply into the "whys" and the "wherefores" of Production Engine development, a perusal of GM PP's LS3+ crate engines (which are NOT "Production Engines") reveals one interesting tidbit...fuel requirements. The LS3-480 hp requires 92-octane giz-o-line which, if I'm not mistaken, is NOT available in the Golden State of California. I dare say CA's potential sales would be deemed "important" to any "business case".

Add in the LS3's 6600 rpm limits because of their powdered rods and nodular cranks and you arrive at a conclusion that they are inherently inferior to the metallurgy and engineering present in the LS7, not as rev-able...and NOT as "mystical" as a "427 Camaro".

The LS7, at 505 hp, is a starting point for those interested in "more". Clearly, these engines (limited by their hypereutectic pistons) are capable of "more"...much more... Specs follow, as per GM PP (http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/Pa...jsp?engine=2):

LS 376/480:

Block (P/N 12584727): Cast Aluminum with 6-bolt, cross-bolted main caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.06 x 3.62 (103.25 x 92mm)

Camshaft duration (@.050 in): 219 degree intake / 228 degree exhaust

Camshaft type (P/N 88958733): Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 10.7:1

Connecting rods (P/N 12617570): Powdered metal

Crankshaft (P/N 12597569): Nodular

Cylinder heads (P/N 12598594): LS3 rectangle port; as cast with 68cc chambers

Displacement (cu in): 376 cu in (6.2L)

Maximum recommended RPM: 6600

Recommended fuel: 92 octane

Valve lift (in): .525" intake / .525" exhaust

Valve size (in): 2.16 int / 1.59 exhaust


LS7/505:

Block Part Number (17802854): Cast aluminum w/6-bolt steel main bearing caps

Bore x Stroke (in): 4.125 x 4.00 (104.8 mm x 101.6 mm)

Camshaft Duration: 211 degree intake / 230 degree exhaust

Camshaft lift (in): .591" (15 mm) Intake and Exhaust

Camshaft Part Number: P/N 12571251

Camshaft type: Hydraulic roller

Compression ratio: 11.0:1

Connecting rods Type: Forged titanium

Crankshaft Part Number 12568819: Forged steel

Cylinder head Part Number: 12578450

Cylinder head Type: CNC Ported LS7 specific pattern 70 cc CNC combustion chambers

Displacement (cu in): 427 (7.0L)

Maximum rpm: 7000

Pistons Type: Hypereutectic aluminum

Recommended fuel: 91 octane

Valve size (in): 2.20" titanium intake, 1.61" sodium filled exhaust


For those potentially offended by the thoughts (and price) of an LS7-engined 427 Z/28, well, we'll just call it a "COPO"...
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:12 AM   #685
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I really really want a 5Gen LS7 Z28...BAD!
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:25 AM   #686
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I really really want a 5Gen LS7 Z28...BAD!
2cnd chance, don't give it a 2cnd thought...
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