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Old 05-30-2011, 06:22 PM   #101
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^ how do we find out? Hey Number 3?
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:35 PM   #102
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Here's the encouraging news. The Camaro's current Chief Engineer does have a better understanding of the car than perhaps his predecessor had. It's no accident that the Camaro GT500 competitor got a last minute name change to ZL1.

The target for a REAL Z/28 is the Boss - and that's a good thing. Camaro's current architecture does have it's limitations but at least the right focus is finally there.

Let' see what they come up with!
Would like to know if there is any more info on this???
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:40 PM   #103
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Show cars don't mean any R&D has been done. All it means for sure is that stuck an LS7 into a Camaro engine bay, not the most difficult of tasks. It might not have even ran.
it did run. but like you said, all it was, was an LS7 and a six speed trans. nothing much more to it.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:05 PM   #104
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Forged wheels may offer a reduction. But GM has some pretty severe wheel requirements. I know shopping for my Sky I can find some "race" wheels that save about 8 pounds per wheel. But race means no potholes.

Manual seats for sure, but only a few pounds. I know my Sky has power height on the driver side, but manual for all others. So that can work.

I will let Pedders comment on this. My first instinct is they actually weigh a bit more. But that is a factless observation. Factless no more we save about 18 pounds with Xa coilovers and breakeven with the Supercars.

I haven't seen the EPS mass. ZL1 has EPS, SS doesn't so if it weighs less it's good. Plus better FE.

LS7 is for sure more power and awesomeness. But just big bucks due to the manual build in Wixom. I'd hope for a nice LS3 bump. Problem there is you now make the LS7 obsolete. Why pay big bucks for 505 when you can get 450+ for much less.

Gearing something that I think could add an immediate benefit. Honestly not sure why we haven't tapped into this.

I like your numbers, which would require the LS7.

I think your cost is ok, but not with the LS7 which is the contradiction.

But for me, here is what I would do to drop the weight and still have a car pleasant to drive every day.

Start with a 1SS

Eliminate all engine covers and plastic in the engine compartment. If it isn't moving fuel or coolant..............gone.

Manual seats.

No fog lamps. No LS filler. Just a simple fascia.

No mail slot.

No floor mats. (optional on 1SS anyway??)

No trunk trim, no flat load floor, no spare, no inflator. Just a can of fix a flat.

No folding rear seat. Yes, I want a rear seat or I'd just buy a Corvette. But I don't need latches and pull strap to fold it down on very rare occasions.

I'd remove some but not all NVH treatments. Lighter dash mat, reduced mastic materials on the body.

Eliminate the push/push fuel door and add the finger cup back in. This eliminates the push pin mechanism.

Smaller bare bones console. Simple arm rest in between the seats.

No power passenger side rear view mirror.

Go to a 15 gallon fuel tank. Saves full tank of fuel mass and also just a smaller, lighter tank.

Thinner glass for windshield, doors, back light and quarter glass.

That might, and I'm guessing save 50 pounds, not counting the reduction of 3 gallons of gas (an extra 20 pounds)

Adds:

Carbon fiber hood

Titanium exhaust (C5 Z06)

Glass Matt battery (bad for performance, but good for mass)


Magnesium front cradle (C6 Z06)

Low mass race wheels (C5 had titanium but wouldn't go quite that far)

Again, guessing a bit, you might save another 100 pounds.

So total reduced weight 150 pounds over a 1SS.

If at all possible, get the Wixom LS3 (reported to make more power) and add tweak it where possible. Only asking for 450 at the crank.

Now add the suspension improvements from the ZL1 minus MR shocks.

Widen the front tires to help understeer.


Now you have a slightly lighter, slightly more powerful and slightly better handling car.

That will likely not get your 0 - 60 in 4.0 seconds or 12 second 1/4, but might make the rest of your numbers.
#3 has the Z28 close to dialed. I would add:

ZL1 / CTS-V Brakes

Two piece rotors

Brake ducts where the gogs used to be.

More aggressive sway bars

The 'small' changes are HUGE. 30 more HP / TQ with more aggressive gears will make a HUGE difference in performance. Taking over 100 pounds out of the car is another HUGE plus. Just taking the highlighted in red steps toward the Z28 makes the project cost effective for GM and the consumer.
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:59 PM   #105
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What do you mean?
Anything beside what you had already stated regarding the Camaros chief engineer?
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:00 PM   #106
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Anything beside what you had already stated regarding the Camaros chief engineer?
Yes, Al should Pedderise every Camaro that goes down the line
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:05 PM   #107
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Wow 18 lbs. Saved with Peddders coilovers?!!!

Pete the 4.5 lbs. Per corner added unsprung weight from the Supercars does it negate the Supercars benefits?
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:34 PM   #108
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I'm just saying that I think Al Oppenheiser "gets it". I think he understands the Camaro. I also think he gets what a REAL Z/28 is all about - something which probably hasn't been the case previously.

We should also thank the Boss Mustang for giving GM a little bit of clarity here as well.
Gotcha and no doubt the Boss caused the name change.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:53 PM   #109
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Wow 18 lbs. Saved with Peddders coilovers?!!!

Pete the 4.5 lbs. Per corner added unsprung weight from the Supercars does it negate the Supercars benefits?
The Xa coilovers are lighter than stock. The Supercars are the same. We save weight on both coilover models with the high silicone, high strength steel we use. The Xa is a 42mm diameter monotube while the Supercar is a 52mm monotube. As we increase the diameter of the coilover along with the oil volume we add weight. The larger diameter bore and piston equate to smoother control. Add in a reservoir for additional oil volume. Combine them and the ability to dissipate heat is increased. Out testing results are that the Supercars deliver over a one second per lap gain. That is HUGE! Nickey Chicago just ran thier Road race version at the Autobahn in Joliet and picked up over 2 seconds with the Supercars and CTS-V brakes.

Long story short, just like the heavier ZL1 dif and halfshafts adding durability means more weight. That means we look to shave weight in other components like titanium exhaust, powerless seats....
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:44 AM   #110
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You know, as cool as the LS7 is, I don't understand why anyone would pay more for an LS7 with less HP than an LSA, especially when you can mod the LSA so cheaply. Yes, the LS7 is a great engine, but I wouldn't pay extra for one over an LSA, especially if they got rid of the dry sump oil system.

Driving in a Z06 is a blast! I'm all for it! That's where the LS7 belongs!
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:33 AM   #111
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I don't know why the "urban legend" of LS7s co$ting more than LSAs persists. GM PP sells LS7s for about $3,000 LESS than an LSA...and I seriously doubt they use the LS7 as a "loss leader"...

If we're talking about BOSS production numbers being roughly the equivalent for a Z/28, by the time you do ALL the work necessary to get a "hot" LS3 ready for Production, you'll eat up most of the currently-$6,000 difference 'tween the current RPO LS3 crate engine, and the LS7...with at least 10% less hp and an even greater differential in torque.

As per Number 3's assertion, that low/mid-$40s was "do-able" for the LS7, I doubt you'll see much sticker relief with the "hot" LS3. BOSS set a price mark that's not likely to decrease with GM, so let's get as much n/a engine as we can! And THAT would be the LS7. Delete/change what "fits" the budget, then add the wheels/tires/bushings/bars/bits 'n pieces...

With 2SSs @ mid/upper $30s, and the ZL1 breaking $50,000 (+options), a low/mid-$40s Z/28 splits the difference, and rightly fits the price ladder.

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Old 06-01-2011, 01:07 PM   #112
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I don't know why the "urban legend" of LS7s co$ting more than LSAs persists. GM PP sells LS7s for about $3,000 LESS than an LSA...
I believe that if you read the fine print, that doesn't include the dry sump oil system, which really puts you in a tight spot. Now you either have to mod your car to accept the dry sump system and buy the dry sump system, or you have to adapt the LS7 to work without one, which I've never seen done before. Either way, it's not going to be cheap.

Another thing that the LSA has over the LS7 is about 80 Lbs Ft of torque.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LS7! It's a great engine! If they put one in the Z28, it would be cool, but I'd still buy a ZL1.
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:12 PM   #113
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Thinner glass would require crash recertification, the windshield and rear glass is part of the structure of the vehicles nowadays. Side glass I can not speak too. There is more to adding the LS7 than just dropping it in the Camaro like people have said, it will require new emission and fuel standard tests......it WILL require those test not may. The OEMs have to meet stardards that none of most here understand or comprehend, just cause you can bolt in an LS7, Pedder suspension, and a louder exhaust does not mean GM can that easy! The LS7 is a HAND built engine not the production line piece like the LS3 is, higher volume will not see cost returns everyone thinks. Of course a retuned LS3 will need to be recertified too (but it could be done on a regular production line and not hand built), this why it is so hard for the OEMs to come out with these cars today. We don't know how long Ford worked on and what the cost was the bring the Boss to light of day.

I would:

1. Reduce sound deadener
2. Retune the LS3 for 450hp much like Ford did to the 5.0 in the Boss
3. Better seats that are lighter (Recaros is a factory seat in other OEMs)
4. LOOSE the big heavy blingy wagon wheels (18's will fit, and the need for ZL1 brakes goes away, forget the ZL1 heavy a$$ 20" too they are wrong for a handling car)
5. Gearing (3.70?)
6. Decontent the Z/28 in standard forum, allow costumers to add to weighty stuff back if they choose too.
7. A tastefull body kit and front splitter (a serious challenge today....the ZL1/Bumblebee nose is UGLY!!! IMO)
8. Retune the suspension (swaybars, springs, and shocks) By the way Pedder is not the end all be all suspension kit out there.

Adding HP to keep up with the Boss in a handling car is like "Screwing for virginity", weight is a bigger deal in a car that handles than even a drag car.
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:25 PM   #114
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I believe that if you read the fine print, that doesn't include the dry sump oil system, which really puts you in a tight spot. Now you either have to mod your car to accept the dry sump system and buy the dry sump system, or you have to adapt the LS7 to work without one, which I've never seen done before. Either way, it's not going to be cheap.

Another thing that the LSA has over the LS7 is about 80 Lbs Ft of torque.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LS7! It's a great engine! If they put one in the Z28, it would be cool, but I'd still buy a ZL1.

Earlier, in this thread and others, mention has been made of "wet-sump LS7". The dry-sump tank suffers from packaging issues in the Camaro, and does NOT pass any sort of crash test when "front-end mounted", the simplest refit seen thus far... Great for "aftermarket", not so for OEM.

Wet-sump'd, the LS7 vs. LS3 weight issue...isn't. An LS7'd Z/28 will weigh virtually the same as a 1SS before being "Z-ified"...

The avoidance of the LSA is to get away from the 150 extra lbs. on the nose...the bugaboo that necessitates the MR suspension on the ZL1 which, by itself, adds further weight... ZL1s will Curb greater than 4,000 lbs.

EDIT: Q-ship's "Q-ship" Z would price out under $40Gs...or should...and IF there's a Z/28, no way will it undercut the BOSS's pricepoint. So what more needs to be added/changed/deleted?
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:36 PM   #115
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Earlier, in this thread and others, mention has been made of "wet-sump LS7". The dry-sump tank suffers from packaging issues in the Camaro, and does NOT pass any sort of crash test when "front-end mounted", the simplest refit seen thus far... Great for "aftermarket", not so for OEM.

Wet-sump'd, the LS7 vs. LS3 weight issue...isn't. An LS7'd Z/28 will weigh virtually the same as a 1SS before being "Z-ified"...

The avoidance of the LSA is to get away from the 150 extra lbs. on the nose...the bugaboo that necessitates the MR suspension on the ZL1 which, by itself, adds further weight... ZL1s will Curb greater than 4,000 lbs.

EDIT: Q-ship's "Q-ship" Z would price out under $40Gs...or should...and IF there's a Z/28, no way will it undercut the BOSS's pricepoint. So what more needs to be added/changed/deleted?
Weight OK, they make the Z28 LSA blower, heads and block out of titanium to get back to LS3 weight. Money Where are we with the engine choice
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:58 PM   #116
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Earlier, in this thread and others, mention has been made of "wet-sump LS7". The dry-sump tank suffers from packaging issues in the Camaro, and does NOT pass any sort of crash test when "front-end mounted", the simplest refit seen thus far... Great for "aftermarket", not so for OEM.
Cool! I missed that! Too much thread and not enough time! That certainly would make hot rodding with the LS7 a lot easier.
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Old 06-01-2011, 03:33 PM   #117
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You know, as cool as the LS7 is, I don't understand why anyone would pay more for an LS7 with less HP than an LSA, especially when you can mod the LSA so cheaply. Yes, the LS7 is a great engine, but I wouldn't pay extra for one over an LSA, especially if they got rid of the dry sump oil system.

Driving in a Z06 is a blast! I'm all for it! That's where the LS7 belongs!
Weight, throttle control, & heat soak.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:22 PM   #118
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The crate engines available from GMPP do not talk to the OE computers. They do not support gauge function. This is by design and government regulation.

Heat soak, yech! We are talking massive coolers (oil and PS) for a Z28 and a dif cooler.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:43 PM   #119
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Engine choice, Pete? I'm stickin' with the LS7...

Built in these volumes (5000 or so), that's 5 TIMES the Z06. Contrary to other opinion, and even if "hand-built", unit co$t$ MUST be decreased...more blocks/heads/ti rods/cranks etc. And yes, there is some validation work to be done. But the vast majority of development has already been accrued, and can now be amortized over far more units, for whatever duration the LS7 remains (likely through balance of current-Gen Vette, approaching the next-Gen Camaro and therefore next-Gen engines). Compare the expendiency and costs to validating FOR PRODUCTION PURPOSES a "hot" LS3 (there IS a difference between Parts criteria and Production criteria, and the revised LS3 would have to be smog'd, which it currently isn't...LS7 is). Again, more torque (not inconsequential in a car of this size, regardless of its final Curb), more power more easily, more rev-able, and, at this unit size, not much (if any) more expensive at source.

If an LS7 CAN be made available, "within pricing/cost constraints", why wouldn't we want it?

BTW, Scoggin-Dickey sells a MAST-built LS3-based 427 with Eagle internals for $16,995. Makes 600hp. They ALSO sell a similarly-constructed and -pieced LS7-based 427 for the SAME PRICE. Power from the LS7 version? 650hp ...same price, same displacement, similar componenets! So which engine is the basis for greater potential?
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:48 PM   #120
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Engine choice, Pete? I'm stickin' with the LS7...

Built in these volumes (5000 or so), that's 5 TIMES the Z06. Contrary to other opinion, and even if "hand-built", unit co$t$ MUST be decreased...more blocks/heads/ti rods/cranks etc. And yes, there is some validation work to be done. But the vast majority of development has already been accrued, and can now be amortized over far more units, for whatever duration the LS7 remains (likely through balance of current-Gen Vette, approaching the next-Gen Camaro and therefore next-Gen engines). Compare the expendiency and costs to validating FOR PRODUCTION PURPOSES a "hot" LS3 (there IS a difference between Parts criteria and Production criteria, and the revised LS3 would have to be smog'd, which it currently isn't...LS7 is). Again, more torque (not inconsequential in a car of this size, regardless of its final Curb), more power more easily, more rev-able, and, at this unit size, not much (if any) more expensive at source.

If an LS7 CAN be made available, "within pricing/cost constraints", why wouldn't we want it?

BTW, Scoggin-Dickey sells a MAST-built LS3-based 427 with Eagle internals for $16,995. Makes 600hp. They ALSO sell a similarly-constructed and -pieced LS7-based 427 for the SAME PRICE. Power from the LS7 version? 650hp ...same price, same displacement, similar componenets! So which engine is the basis for greater potential?
Maybe the key to the Z28 is pre-orders. Say 5,000 pre-sold with non-refundable $5K deposits. Lock down the build sheet and limit the colors. They parade down the assembly line in an incredibly efficient process.

600 NA would make for an extraordinary Z28. Combine that kind of HP / TQ with new tranny and rear end gears... MONSTER Z28
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:52 PM   #121
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.

600 NA would make for an extraordinary Z28. Combine that kind of HP / TQ with new tranny and rear end gears... MONSTER Z28
Would it be tough to get that power to the ground? Seems like we are getting in to the area that slicks or really good sport tires are going to be needed at the track.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:56 PM   #122
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Maybe the key to the Z28 is pre-orders. Say 5,000 pre-sold with non-refundable $5K deposits. Lock down the build sheet and limit the colors. They parade down the assembly line in an incredibly efficient process.

600 NA would make for an extraordinary Z28. Combine that kind of HP / TQ with new tranny and rear end gears... MONSTER Z28
I'm not suggesting, or expecting, 600+...it was intended as a comparison between LS3 blocks 'n stuff vs. LS7. LS3 is stouT...LS7 is REAL STOUT!

Streamlined, and/or "batch-built"...certainly easier for the CAW to sign up for!

BTW, I erred in my S-D pricing...the difference is actually $3,000 in favor of the '3...sorry. Which, all other things considered, is likely what the difference should be based on the recipes we are likely to see from GM. Personally, I'd pay $3Gs more for the LS7-Z/28 combo...50 warranted horsepower, that still has another 50 left for "tuning", is a pretty nice place to be for that lil difference!
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:01 PM   #123
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Would it be tough to get that power to the ground? Seems like we are getting in to the area that slicks or really good sport tires are going to be needed at the track.
Coming out of GM it would probably have 305/30/20s in the rear. That would be sufficient. If I had my choice we would be talking about a Z28 with a square setup 305/30/19s all around. With a boosted 600 like the Pedders Camaro powering out of the corners took a very measured throttle to control the boost coming on. With an NA setup it would be freaking sick to drive. I am thinking about canceling my ZL1 for the Z28 being built here.
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:19 PM   #124
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Coming out of GM it would probably have 305/30/20s in the rear. That would be sufficient. If I had my choice we would be talking about a Z28 with a square setup 305/30/19s all around. With a boosted 600 like the Pedders Camaro powering out of the corners took a very measured throttle to control the boost coming on. With an NA setup it would be freaking sick to drive. I am thinking about canceling my ZL1 for the Z28 being built here.
I would be willing to bet that with 600 HP there would be quite a few people out driving their skill level realllll quick

The Z28 that is being built in here sounds pretty sweet to me. I guess we will have to wait and see if GM can make a case for it!

Maybe they will suprise us with a 5th GEN DI-V8..... what I can wish cant I???????
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:22 PM   #125
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I am thinking about canceling my ZL1 for the Z28 being built here.
Pete, that's the LAST thing GM wants to see in print!!! That's exactly why you'll not see any announcement (if there ever is one...) about a Z/28 till after ALL the '12 ZL1s are spoken for AND likely delivered...

Sadly...this recipe was good-to-go 18 months ago...but a suitable "fleet" of Camaros was not made available...and then Daddy BigBuck$ took his bat 'n ball home...

However, the price might have been a tad more than $45...
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