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Old 05-29-2011, 12:05 PM   #85
JusticePete
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
So the distinction between the ZL1 and the Z28 would be LS7 and Pedders fixed height Supercar coilovers?

Btw, I'll tweak my ZL1 the day I get it.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:14 PM   #86
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Pete, thanks for your input.

I agree a modified LS3 is the way to go for a new Z/28.

What's your opinion of the 376/480 LS3?
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:15 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
But Pete, you end up with something more hard core than most folks want to live with on a frequent/daily basis. The GS and Carbon Vettes are still "live-able". The BOSS is "live-able". How much, and what's the RPO code, for the ear plugs?

Ask Number 3 what the total cost is (and TIME involved) to bring an "LS3+" to the RPO table. The LS7 (save wet sump, which is GM parts-specific) is READY.

This is to be a Z/28...not the SSX...which you're welcome to turn YOUR Z/28 into.
Pete don't get us wrong. We want a car that handles but as Lowdown stated we can't believe that GM would or should make a car that is not highly saleable. The alternative is to put in the more powerful and available LS7. This allows for a competitive Camaro performance and cost wise to the Boss. And of course we want the ZL1 brakes, drivetrain, etc. The simpler we keep this the faster to production and less expensive it will be.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z View Post
Pete, thanks for your input.

I agree a modified LS3 is the way to go for a new Z/28.

What's your opinion of the 376/480 LS3?
Number 3 has stated the expense of the LS7 is in it's being low production. Why start on something new with less power that will also be built in low numbers? Makes no sense.
Instead use what exist and by adding to it's production it should lower the cost.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:27 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
So the distinction between the ZL1 and the Z28 would be LS7 and Pedders fixed height Supercar coilovers?

Btw, I'll tweak my ZL1 the day I get it.
Yes and none of the extra fluff standard, but available. A true drivers car with no forced induction. Simply the difference between a GT500 and a Boss, but in Camaro form.

ZL1 = GT500
Z28 = Boss
OK not really equal, better.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:32 PM   #90
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In my mind, a Z28 is a handling car with a lot of horsepower. What I am getting from this thread is that a Z28 is a lot of horsepower that handles?
For me its a handling car with some extra power....

Im not hung up on the weight... I just want it to handle like its on rails!

Hell the boss is heavier than the GT coupe so what makes us think the Camaro isn't going to be the same way

Last edited by ShnOmac; 05-29-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #91
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"What is 'right' as a Z/28", should be the question.

Whether we like it or not, the BOSS is the benchmark.

Take a 1SS...cloth (standard-grippier seats)...lightest that exists. Deletes will save a few pounds, but sadly will ADD COST. Minimized sound deadener. Seam sealer plays well north of the Mason-Dixon. Thin glass? Not really. Can the console be deleted, and the necessary hardware re-routed? What about an RPO for Rear Seat/Belts/Bags Delete as a separate option?

ZL1 Forged Wheels/Tires (or perhaps a Z/28-specific tire like the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports?)

ZL1 Brakes/ABS/StabiliTrak/TC

Revised Springs/Bars/Bushings...as required (Pete, do you need a PO?)

Wet-sump LS7 with ZL1 Tremec

ZL1 Splitter/Spoiler Pkg. ONLY

Z/28-specific Headrests/Mats ONLY

Z/28-specific Badges/Graphics (graphics deleteable @ n/c)

Z/28 Rear 1/4 Vents ala "Leno" - non-functional, but "someone" will have a kit...

NO "trick" hood/ground effects/geegaws...

ZL1 HD Driveline pieces (diff/axles etc.)

In this raging debate over LS7 vs. enhanced LS3, two distinct advantages exist:

1) The LS7 is a "done deal"...good-to-go, as they say

2) If you build a 500hp LS3+, it will NEVER have the TORQUE of the LS7. Pete, is more torque a good thing on a track, especially for corner exit? On the street? Is there anywhere that extra torque is a bad thing, icy roads excepted?
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:16 PM   #92
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Two additional GM beancounter benefits:

1) Utilizing ZL1 components brings their unit co$t down...cheaper for the Zee, more profit for the BIG Zee

2) Same applies to the "outrageous" co$t of the LS7...more built = lower unit cost

The more commonality between 1SS AND ZL1 AND Z/28, the quicker the lil Zee will happen, at reduced cost, and at reduced "burden". And at INCREASED PROFITS for GM. After all, more units, sooner = more profits...

Based on the Chicago Announcement timeline of about 9 months to showrrom floor, using pre-developed ZL1 components potentially shaves time AND cost. But I like the NAIAS Annoucement timeline...with Spring'12 deliveries...
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:42 PM   #93
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I'm lowdown with that!
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:39 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
"What is 'right' as a Z/28", should be the question.

Whether we like it or not, the BOSS is the benchmark.

Take a 1SS...cloth (standard-grippier seats)...lightest that exists. Deletes will save a few pounds, but sadly will ADD COST. Minimized sound deadener. Seam sealer plays well north of the Mason-Dixon. Thin glass? Not really. Can the console be deleted, and the necessary hardware re-routed? What about an RPO for Rear Seat/Belts/Bags Delete as a separate option?

ZL1 Forged Wheels/Tires (or perhaps a Z/28-specific tire like the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports?)

ZL1 Brakes/ABS/StabiliTrak/TC

Revised Springs/Bars/Bushings...as required (Pete, do you need a PO?)

Wet-sump LS7 with ZL1 Tremec

ZL1 Splitter/Spoiler Pkg. ONLY

Z/28-specific Headrests/Mats ONLY

Z/28-specific Badges/Graphics (graphics deleteable @ n/c)

Z/28 Rear 1/4 Vents ala "Leno" - non-functional, but "someone" will have a kit...

NO "trick" hood/ground effects/geegaws...

ZL1 HD Driveline pieces (diff/axles etc.)

In this raging debate over LS7 vs. enhanced LS3, two distinct advantages exist:

1) The LS7 is a "done deal"...good-to-go, as they say

2) If you build a 500hp LS3+, it will NEVER have the TORQUE of the LS7. Pete, is more torque a good thing on a track, especially for corner exit? On the street? Is there anywhere that extra torque is a bad thing, icy roads excepted?
Torque is acceleration on the street or track so more is almost always better. There is a point of diminishing returns in the sense if you can't put it down you don't need it. Gearing makes a ridiculous difference, but the penalty is fuel economy.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:36 PM   #95
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^hence the need for overdrive.
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:30 AM   #96
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^hence the need for overdrive.
OK by me.
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:26 PM   #97
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. There is a point of diminishing returns in the sense if you can't put it down you don't need it
I was actually just thinking about this while dreaming about the future Z/28. Any guesses on when the "point of diminishing returns" starts to come into play on our Camaro? Lets say we are running 305's on all four corners and of course its fully pedderised.....
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:02 PM   #98
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Update:

I came across this previous post from Number 3, which certainly has merit...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=131653&page=3 Post #54

...which reinforces my contention that "deleting" and "substitution" on a significant scale will co$t a TON...but not come close to SAVING a "ton".

"Race car prepping", although changing the basic dynamics through a lowered cg and lowered Curb Weight, will make the car unliveable, on a regular/daily basis, for most of those seriously interested in such a "hard core handler", while literally exposing the car to a shortened life in climates other than the desert SouthWest...

Maybe GM PP needs to offer an "SSX Package"...racer-friendly...and then, to quote Darrell Waltrip and NASCAR, "Have at 'er, boyz!"

1) Let's be careful with features/options to minimize CW, while watching the cost/benefit closely;

2) To get to or under 8.0 lbs/hp (BOSS territory), again while watching the cost/benefit factors, simply requires an LS7 with wet-sump.

A 450hp enhanced LS3, in a 3700lb chassis = 8.22 lb/hp, is heavier than the BOSS, with a greater overall Mass, and greater Frontal Area. Too close to call, how this comparo might turn out.

3850lb/500hp = 7.7...with faaarrr more torque than the BOSS...or any n/a LS3. I think this one wins...everytime!
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