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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 07-11-2012, 09:12 PM   #1726
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No validation would be required. Why? Because if GM doesn't know the LS7 inside and out by now validation would be a waste of time. I'll get flamed over this, but the LS7 Z/28 is a want to build by TEAM Camaro. IF they want to make it happen, it will happen. The more we tell them we want it, the more likely it is we'll see one. Every obstacle between here and there is simply a matter of want to.

I see the LS7 Z/28 coming out in the last 5th Gen model year. FI motors are great. Having said that, nothing says MUSCLE CAR like a Normally aspirated big cam motor that is uncomfortable at idle and has more TQ to the wheels than the driver has brains The L/28 puts down 600 to the rear wheels. The clutch is an on off switch. Gracefully engaging 1st gear requires 3,000 RPM, a bit of clutch slip and more throttle. From 3,000 to 7,000 RPM it makes more power than any remotely sane person would want. The exhaust is an ear splitting symphony. We get the power down through a full Pedders Suspension. We stop with a massive set of Brembo brakes. Most everyone that comes into contact with the car loves it, but says it is too much for a daily driver. I think it is PERFECT for a DD. A ZL1 based LS7 Z/28 with the cheapest set of wheels, tires, struts, coils and sway bars would make a perfect Z/28. The buyer could DIY or have Dealer installed full Pedders and a set of Forgeline 19x10.5 wheels shod with Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19/XL tires. It is as close to a dream come true Camaro from the factory we can ask for. It would be a fitting end to the 5th Gen as you will NEVER AGAIN see an LS7 like motor in an OEM vehicle. The emissions at idle due to the cam are too high. I see EPA waivers for this project in my dreams.



Being remotely sane all I can say is wow, Wow, and WOW! This is musc to my ears, I'm all in....the meanest motor scooter and baddest go getter FI N/A Camaro Z/28 shall rule the paved Earth only if GM says it's a go. All it will take is a corporate green light. We have the technology...let's get this done Chevy. I nominate this for post of the day. Thanks Pete for the read....
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #1727
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From what I can gather the 1LE has a cooler for the tranny, but none for the differential. That leads me to believe it is a SS differential. From memory, the retail cost of the ZL1 from hubs to shafts to differential is about $4,500 at retail for parts. If the Z/28 is a real track car, we want the best that Chevrolet has to offer.
We want the best they have to offer but will Chevy build it?
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:45 PM   #1728
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The engine cost is a serious hurdle There is one hurdle and only one - Emissions.

Internal development cost What would they be? A badge or a fascia change? I could care less. Make it the Z28 option code. Problem solved.

Feel free to continue to think of 100 reasons why they should not build the Z/28. None of them matter. The only real obstacle to a LS7 Z/28 is EMISSIONS.
You are partially correct in that to get an LS7 in a Camaro presents several serious issues preventing it from happening. However due to low productions numbers, content cost is likely a bigger factor than emissions in getting the car's business case made inside GM. Gas guzzler taxes seem to be somewhat accepted among buyers so far on GM performance vehicles.

There is no reason to debate development costs of putting a different engine in the Camaro any further. You either understand that the days of just swapping out engines like some kind of COPO special are over and that GM is an OEM manufacturer and all vehicles they produce must meet high standards and stand behind a warranty. Don't confuse development costs of the LS7 or the Camaro independently. It means that they must be certified, packaged, durability tested and crash tested… etc. together. The costs and engineering time are probably not high in relation to what was spent on the ZL1 program but again another hurdle against the business case the car needs would need to make. Money and time was spent to bring the 1LE package to the Camaro and that was without a engine change.

You can call them excuses but this is the reality facing a car like has been proposed here. Nobody at GM wanted a 3750-4100 lb Camaro but that became reality for it return and to be competitive in the marketplace.

Moving forward. The Z28 brand is very strong now. And although it may be due to its absence from the lineup, GM can't just slap the moniker on any Camaro. I think we are all in agreement that it needs to be a handling fist objective to the core of the vehicle.
But would it be accepted without an LS7?
Even if it could out handle the BOSS 302 and hang with it on overall performance but maybe not outright straight line speed.
Would it be accepted if in order to do so GM had to put tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup and make them an option?
Would a Z28 in the 445HP range and 3900 lb curb weight be accepted?

These are more realistic questions for any talk of Z28 in the 5th Gen Camaro. Although a car like this seems to be an option for the SS in 2013.
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:31 PM   #1729
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You are partially correct in that to get an LS7 in a Camaro presents several serious issues preventing it from happening. However due to low productions numbers, content cost is likely a bigger factor than emissions in getting the car's business case made inside GM. Gas guzzler taxes seem to be somewhat accepted among buyers so far on GM performance vehicles.

There is no reason to debate development costs of putting a different engine in the Camaro any further. You either understand that the days of just swapping out engines like some kind of COPO special are over and that GM is an OEM manufacturer and all vehicles they produce must meet high standards and stand behind a warranty. Don't confuse development costs of the LS7 or the Camaro independently. It means that they must be certified, packaged, durability tested and crash tested… etc. together. The costs and engineering time are probably not high in relation to what was spent on the ZL1 program but again another hurdle against the business case the car needs would need to make. Money and time was spent to bring the 1LE package to the Camaro and that was without a engine change.

You can call them excuses but this is the reality facing a car like has been proposed here. Nobody at GM wanted a 3750-4100 lb Camaro but that became reality for it return and to be competitive in the marketplace.

Moving forward. The Z28 brand is very strong now. And although it may be due to its absence from the lineup, GM can't just slap the moniker on any Camaro. I think we are all in agreement that it needs to be a handling fist objective to the core of the vehicle.
But would it be accepted without an LS7?
Even if it could out handle the BOSS 302 and hang with it on overall performance but maybe not outright straight line speed.
Would it be accepted if in order to do so GM had to put tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup and make them an option?
Would a Z28 in the 445HP range and 3900 lb curb weight be accepted?

These are more realistic questions for any talk of Z28 in the 5th Gen Camaro. Although a car like this seems to be an option for the SS in 2013.
We again hear what your saying and we have discussed these points some time ago. We have argued debated and all else and then we turned our attention to the positive. How? By arguing the why not?. The how can this be done? What is the biz case? Is the part currently available? Feel free to read the entire thread and some others here and you'll see where we started and how we got to where we are. Most of the guys posting here have been with this thread for quite a while. Enjoy.

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Old 07-12-2012, 04:26 PM   #1730
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We again hear what your saying and we have discussed these points some time ago. We have argued debated and all else and then we turned our attention to the positive. How? By arguing the why not?. The how can this be done? What is the biz case? Is the part currently available? Feel free to read the entire thread and some others here and you'll see where we started and how we got to where we are. Most of the guys posting here ave been with this thread for quite a while. Enjoy.
I've looked over the thread from time to time since it started. I'm just responding to another poster. If my point and several others that have brought it up sounds very similar it's because nothing has changed since this thread has started.

If I am reading correctly it's either GM makes a Z28 proper by powering it with an LS7 or don't do one at all.

Would that be an accurate assessment of main underlying point of the thread?
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:34 PM   #1731
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Not necessarily ONLY an LS7...but it MUST have more to it than simply a rebadged 1LE, with substantially more than 426 hp...
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:08 PM   #1732
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I've looked over the thread from time to time since it started. I'm just responding to another poster. If my point and several others that have brought it up sounds very similar it's because nothing has changed since this thread has started.

If I am reading correctly it's either GM makes a Z28 proper by powering it with an LS7 or don't do one at all.

Would that be an accurate assessment of main underlying point of the thread?
Yes and no. We've considered it more as a business move, if you will. In other words how would they (GM) make a Z28 today considering the bloodline of the car using what's available off the shelf so to speak. This thread followed a number of others that had us nicely bickering over what a Z28 needs to be. The conclusion is as you've read, using what is ready to be built with the least amount of R & D. We are wanting a best bang for the business bucks. Also a marketing masterpiece. Or a Z28 that lives up to its original heritage, before it got muddied up. However, if the new LT based engines are available and give it the high-revving added punch beyond the standard V8 Camaro I think we're all in. But wouldn't a 427 based Z28 be totally AWESOME?!
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:08 PM   #1733
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Not necessarily ONLY an LS7...but it MUST have more to it than simply a rebadged 1LE, with substantially more than 426 hp...

I agree. There has to be something that makes the Z28 different so it doesn't get lost in the noise like the whole Z28/SS of the 4th gen.
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:47 PM   #1734
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KarFan, the long and short of it is we have discussed this intently for over three years, we have cried, moaned, begged, pleaded, we have looked at what would be acceptable and what would not be, we have looked at what fits the heritage of the Z/28 and what does not, we have looked at the business case in terms of praticality and profit, I don't think there is much of anything we have ignored or overlooked in the years of discussions here in the Z/28 forum. I don't think there has been any information in any of your posts here that has not already been looked at in one form or another. I think the people that post here on a regular basis and follow all of the Z/28 threads are probably one of the most informed groups of posters on Camaro 5. While I appreciate your insight and input (as I'm sure most others here do), I think we're at the point we need some insight that has not been brought up here, don't know where it would come from cause I'm sure we have covered almost all known info and data.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:06 PM   #1735
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Let's refresh some weight-to-power numbers:

BOSS LS = 3631 lb/444 hp = 8.18 lb/hp

1LE = 3920 lb/426 hp = 9.20 lb/hp (Dual Mode may free up 5-10 additional hp; if 436, then 9.00 lb/hp)

ZEE = 3920 lb/480 hp = 8.17 lb/hp; 3920/505 (LS7) = 7.76 lb/hp

Therefore, forgetting gear ratios 'n tires sizes and all other factors, a Gen-5 ZEE needs 480+ hp to be where it needs to be...and where WE WANT IT TO BE...

That doesn't leave many certified/validated engine options.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #1736
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Yes and no. We've considered it more as a business move, if you will. In other words how would they (GM) make a Z28 today considering the bloodline of the car using what's available off the shelf so to speak. This thread followed a number of others that had us nicely bickering over what a Z28 needs to be. The conclusion is as you've read, using what is ready to be built with the least amount of R & D. We are wanting a best bang for the business bucks. Also a marketing masterpiece. Or a Z28 that lives up to its original heritage, before it got muddied up. However, if the new LT based engines are available and give it the high-revving added punch beyond the standard V8 Camaro I think we're all in. But wouldn't a 427 based Z28 be totally AWESOME?!
We are in agreement that an LS7 in a 1LE is the closest to a Z28 that GM would have for the 5th Gen Camaro right now. We differ in how strong of a business case that makes for GM and if it’s worth doing.

The Gen V V8 is a very interesting opportunity not only for a Camaro model like Z28 but for Camaro period. The timing of introduction in the C7 does make for a very interesting option for the end of the 5th Gen Camaro product run. Unlike the LS7 it will be a mass produced replacement for the Gen IV engines so production and certification costs would be spread across the Camaro line. When coupled with the expected fuel economy and power increase over the Gen IV engines now the business case gets a lot better.

The only sticking point would be if GM wants to take resources by then from the impending 6th Gen development to put the Gen V V8 into the last one or two model years of the 5th Gen Camaro.

GM could use the engine change in 2014-15 to introduce a Z28 model to keep interest in the car at the end of its product cycle.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:49 PM   #1737
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Let's refresh some weight-to-power numbers:

BOSS LS = 3631 lb/444 hp = 8.18 lb/hp

1LE = 3920 lb/426 hp = 9.20 lb/hp (Dual Mode may free up 5-10 additional hp; if 436, then 9.00 lb/hp)

ZEE = 3920 lb/480 hp = 8.17 lb/hp; 3920/505 (LS7) = 7.76 lb/hp

Therefore, forgetting gear ratios 'n tires sizes and all other factors, a Gen-5 ZEE needs 480+ hp to be where it needs to be...and where WE WANT IT TO BE...

That doesn't leave many certified/validated engine options.

Electronic steering on the 1LE should also free up some HP. GM may not change the advertised HP of the LS3 but I would think 1LE models with dual mode could get real close to BOSS 302 HP numbers.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:55 PM   #1738
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...but carry 300 extra lb...so for an equal weight-to-power, more boil in the boiler room would be required...

If recent history tells us anything, "The Laws of Physics" actually ARE...
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:59 PM   #1739
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2 points. #1. The Camaro has been a HUGE success. That being said it has MORE than paid for its R&D. The R&D for the LS7 was paid for long ago as well. 2 very large cost paid for. Now point #2. Marketing. The Z28 nameplate WILL cause a lot of rumble from mags and such as well as the Camaro community in general. A number of SS owners are looking to trade up and $50-60K is a bit much, but mid $40's is a much easier stretch. All companies produce the next "better" product in hopes of getting the customer to "stretch" to their max in a purchase. It also fills the pricing gap between the SS and ZL1. Then couple that with the "legendary" Z28 with a "legendary" 427...I'm sold!
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:02 PM   #1740
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Electronic steering on the 1LE should also free up some HP. GM may not change the advertised HP of the LS3 but I would think 1LE models with dual mode could get real close to BOSS 302 HP numbers.
Be careful what you wish for. EPAS on the Mustangs is not without a few issues, and wider tires seem to exaggerate any problems.

From my point of view, unless you're a drag racer looking to push every last possible HP and ft-lb out the flywheel end, the end result is sometimes not worth it. I don't know how to evaluate the bragging rights matter for this sort of compromise without inserting a fairly strong personal bias.


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Old 07-12-2012, 07:11 PM   #1741
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Be careful what you wish for. EPAS on the Mustangs is not without a few issues, and wider tires seem to exaggerate any problems.

From my point of view, unless you're a drag racer looking to push every last possible HP and ft-lb out the flywheel end, the end result is sometimes not worth it. I don't know how to evaluate the bragging rights matter for this sort of compromise without inserting a fairly strong personal bias.


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Old 07-12-2012, 07:39 PM   #1742
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Could be the "problem" isn't on your end . . .


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Old 07-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #1743
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lol so the car is going to have 2 engines? ooops read to fast corrected....ps the ls7 is to expensive for them to mass produce it probably aint going to happen
Go back and read through the thread, your statement/issue has already been answered. Multiple times!
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:10 PM   #1744
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lol so the car is going to have 2 engines? ooops read to fast corrected....ps the ls7 is to expensive for them to mass produce it probably aint going to happen
Another one...

Oh thanks for visiting, bye bye now.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:15 PM   #1745
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lol so the car is going to have 2 engines? ooops read to fast corrected....ps the ls7 is to expensive for them to mass produce it probably aint going to happen
Friggin troll!
UNO!
Get rid of that POS BMW.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #1746
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Off topic...I really am not impressed with BMW's. And I don't care what the boys at TG say.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:54 PM   #1747
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All true Chance and the other 6 OG's chiming in....this is all rehashed talk, gone over and through many times over....with nothing new brought in by the new posters. It's like a phonograhic needle skipping on a LP record...ah yes, the old vinyl records...now there's something to talk about....
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:19 PM   #1748
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All true Chance and the other 6 OG's chiming in....this is all rehashed talk, gone over and through many times over....with nothing new brought in by the new posters. It's like a phonograhic needle skipping on a LP record...ah yes, the old vinyl records...now there's something to talk about....
Seems like I'm lurking more and more for good news.


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Old 07-12-2012, 09:45 PM   #1749
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Off topic...I really am not impressed with BMW's. And I don't care what the boys at TG say.
I owned (rented) a M6 N54 335i Sport and I am impressed. With a $200 tuning chip it would have outrun my stock LS3 SS at the drags and at the track, had 4 doors (very convenient) and got over 30 MPG on the highway (If you stayed out of the turbos.) and had great sport seats. The build quality was much higher than the SS. Sure it listed $4K higher than the Chevy, but it is one of the most versatile cars ever made. I wish I could have afforded to keep it as my daily driver and made my SS a more extreme summer weekend car.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:53 PM   #1750
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lol so the car is going to have 2 engines? ooops read to fast corrected....ps the ls7 is to expensive for them to mass produce it probably aint going to happen
At first I was giving you the benefit of the doubt (everyone is titled to a opinion) but now that you have posted the same thing twice you do appear to be trolling. Am I wrong?






EDIT: all of his post are very random..... odd. Bot maybe?
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