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Old 09-19-2011, 08:47 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
The argument against calling the ZL1 a Z28 was that the "Z28" was a track-focused car...ultra-high power was not an ingredient. And apparently GM agreed in principle. So how is amplifying that established "bad formula" to a new extreme....a Z28?
Well, what i think Pete is saying that all the frills of the ZL1 will be gone, which equals weight loss......including MR and the supercharger....... now you keep all the oil & diff coolers, put Supercar Coilovers on it, with an aggresive 427 in there... and it is a purpose built track machine that could quite possibly outperform the ZL1..

So the heritage of the Z28 is preserved do to the "better" track suspension, reduced weight, possibly ram air.... (look at some of the actual Racing camaros)... due to power to weight ratios..... it could happen...

am I getting the point pete
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:49 PM   #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLSTWIN View Post
Well, what i think Pete is saying that all the frills of the ZL1 will be gone, which equals weight loss......including MR and the supercharger....... now you keep all the oil & diff coolers, put Supercar Coilovers on it, with an aggresive 427 in there... and it is a purpose built track machine that could quite possibly outperform the ZL1..

So the heritage of the Z28 is preserved do to the "better" track suspension, reduced weight, possibly ram air.... (look at some of the actual Racing camaros)... due to power to weight ratios..... it could happen...

am I getting the point pete
That wouldn't outperform a ZL1 in all respects. Pete's talking Z06-KILLING performance...
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:16 PM   #1095
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Good luck with the 100k+ Camaro, because that would most likely be the number to be a Z06 Killer.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:25 PM   #1096
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Over the weekend I was thinking about something. The premise of this thread is that a LS7 Z/28 would be close in performance to a ZL1, be more road course friendly in a traditional sense and cost more than a SS but less than a ZL1. How would you feel if the Z/28 that had superior performance to a ZL1 in every measurable way, a Z/28 that could roast a Z06, do it on any type of track, do it all day long, had most everything you wanted including weight reduction, but cost more than a ZL1?
Sure, why not? Doing it yourself is going to cost twice as much.
Suspension upgraades, engine upgrades, and now a stroked / forged engine, and supercharger will literally walk the ZL1 but definately costs more.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:26 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by 91Z28350 View Post
Good luck with the 100k+ Camaro, because that would most likely be the number to be a Z06 Killer.
Over a buck, it would need to be a ZR1 Killer
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:42 PM   #1098
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Hmm how much would a handmade aluminum frame, carbon fiber body panels and a twin turbo 6.2 cost? LOL, I take two ZR-1's Thank You.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:27 AM   #1099
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There have been sources that have stated that the ZL1 was very close to the top speed of the Grand Am Continental Tire series GS.R at VIR. The GS.R is a base 426hp LS3 at a race weight of 3350lbs, while a 3900lb, 505hp car would obviously struggle with weight, better VIR lap times come from handling the violent "S's". Depending on the lap time, I could see a vast improvement in a lighter car. While the CTS-V pulled a 144mph top speed at VIR (which is around where the ZL1 is said to be) the CTS-V still could not out handle the GT500 throughout the rest of the track. During that run, the GT500 only pulled a 137mph (same as the 5.0) down the back stretch but still bested the CTS-V due to the weight and S bends. Once the GT500 reaches 142-145mph on that stretch, the lap time dropped to 2:58.48 down from 3:04.

In tracks with elevation changes and repeated S bends, a lighter car, regardless of horsepower will likely take a more powerful car. Even on a very fast track like Willow, the Boss was only half a second off the GT500. Everywhere else the Boss pulls ahead because it is easier to handle. At VIR, being 3800lbs and being subjected to the S bends is a violent and scary experience. The CTS-V and GT500 were pulling between 1.1 and 1.5gs at 60-90mph, the difference (and reason the CTS-V lost) was due to the 5-6mph loss the Caddy let up due to excessive Gs. With a 505hp, 3900lb car, it wouldn't be far fetched to think that although the Z28 couldn't reach 145mph, it would dominate the ZL1 throughout the entire track. I can easily see top speeds reaching 140mph with those stats...

And that would be the first 3 laps @ 3 minutes per lap, lap 4 would have the ZL1 heat soaked and its only advantage (power) would be lost. Two cars, both close to 500hp, one weighing 300lbs more. That power to weight ratio would begin to fluctuate drastically in the ZL1 and still... the Z28 would be cheaper...

Last edited by thePill; 09-20-2011 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:36 AM   #1100
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Nothing for nothing here..but I wonder why does the LS7 have to be reserved for the Corvette as it seemingly appears to be? Why can't the current configuration be placed in a Camaro with a wet sump? Why can't we use the ZL1 drivetrain with a LS7 on a lowered FE4 enhanced(Pedders) suspension with the wheels and tires to match? Why can't the LS7 have a functional hood scoop with ram air and a low restriction exhaust system? Nothing more, nothing less. That in my mind would be worthy enough for the legendary Z28 moniker without all the emphasis as to what it can do on a skip pad versus this competitor or what times it brings in at the "Ring versus that competitor. What do you think? We have discussed these things and tossed them all about. It's not like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Keep it simple. Please bring it back.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:38 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
Nothing for nothing here..but I wonder why does the LS7 have to be reserved for the Corvette as it seemingly appears to be? Why can't the current configuration be placed in a Camaro with a wet sump? Why can't we use the ZL1 drivetrain with a LS7 on a lowered FE4 enhanced(Pedders) suspension with the wheels and tires to match? Why can't the LS7 have a functional hood scoop with ram air and a low restriction exhaust system? Nothing more, nothing less. That in my mind would be worthy enough for the legendary Z28 moniker without all the emphasis as to what it can do on a skip pad versus this competitor or what times it brings in at the "Ring versus that competitor. What do you think? We have discussed these things and tossed them all about. It's not like we are trying to reinvent the wheel here. Keep it simple. Please bring it back.
Keep in mind with the set up you are talking about here requires a dry sump system due to the lateral Gs it will create on the track.

Safety first.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:51 AM   #1102
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Keep in mind with the set up you are talking about here requires a dry sump system due to the lateral Gs it will create on the track.

Safety first.
Good thought, will this set up be that much more different G wise and risk oil cavitation over that of the ZL1 LSA? Is there something I am not aware of any difference between the LS7 and the LSA in their oiling systems other than the fact the LS7 has a dry sump all out race oil delivery system to prevent cavitation and catostrophic engine failure. The LSA has a conventional pan and pick up on it does it not? Supposedly the ZL1 corners and accelerates very hard and does not have a dry sump set up. Will it be much of an issue from an engineering standpoint to locate a dry sump oiling system on a Camaro? If you could elaborate a bit....
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:54 AM   #1103
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Dry sump mandatory?!?

Not at these Gs...a C5 Z06 is capable of near 1.10 G on a skid pad, with wet sump...a number the ZL1 will not likely match...and ITS "all wet", too...
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:13 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
Good thought, will this set up be that much more different G wise and risk oil cavitation over that of the ZL1 LSA? Is there something I am not aware of any difference between the LS7 and the LSA in their oiling systems other than the fact the LS7 has a dry sump all out race oil delivery system to prevent cavitation and catostrophic engine failure. The LSA has a conventional pan and pick up on it does it not? Supposedly the ZL1 corners and accelerates very hard and does not have a dry sump set up. Will it be much of an issue from an engineering standpoint to locate a dry sump oiling system on a Camaro? If you could elaborate a bit....
If what I'm reading here in the last few posts about a Camaro Z28 ripping up a Z06...it better have a dry sump system on it as it will meet or exceed the Gs that Z06 is pulling. I highly doubt the ZL1 will come anywhere near the lateral Gs that will require a dry sump.

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Dry sump mandatory?!?

Not at these Gs...a C5 Z06 is capable of near 1.10 G on a skid pad, with wet sump...a number the ZL1 will not likely match...and ITS "all wet", too...
True, but if we're aiming for the ulimate track Camaro that will run with a Z06, we're going to want that dry sump.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:22 PM   #1105
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You are forgetting that skidpad Gs and Gs that are actually generated at the track is completely different. Watch the video of the GT500s record run at VIR and you can see that the Gs sometimes reach 1.2 and are, in most corners, above 1.0g. Also, pay close attention to the speed at which those Gs are at. The current ZL1 will likely pull Gs closer to what the GT500 and CTS-V does in real track duty (1.1-1.3g+)

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Old 09-20-2011, 12:50 PM   #1106
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Allow me to remind everyone, the Pedders Camaro and Mustang already run faster than a Z06. They out run a CTS-V race car running slicks compared to the Pedders street cars on street tires. We have the Challenger, Mustang and Camaro all pulling sustained 1.3 G turns with peaks into the 1.4 range.

With the vehicles we have tested I can say with confidence that the Mustang and Camaro are so close on road course it is hard to pick a winner, to pick a best vehicle. At the risk of repeating myself, the Mustang is a great track car. On the edge, it doesn't talk to you. On the edge the Mustang screams at you. On the edge, the IRS in the Camaro whispers gently in your ear. Both are fast. Both are different. The weight savings helps and hurts the Mustang. The three link rear suspension feels wobbly. It goes, but is not secure. The Camaro IRS weight hurts and helps. It inspires confidence. A good driver will be very fast in a 5th Gen.

Now back to the Z/28 Dream Car. The benchmark is not a Z06. The Pedders Camaro with a ProCharger has already been there and done that. My DREAM Z/28 walks a Z06. My DREAM Z/28 does sweat a Mustang in any configuration. My DREAM Z/28 is Chicago style.

They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way!

No blower weight up front. No F/I heat soak. Better brakes. A differential that puts power down regardless of G load. Lighter weight wheels. Square wheel and tire setup. Creative lightening. Hoop with removable bar for two well installed 5 point harnesses. Brake ducts. N/A 600 RWHP. Better clutch. Separate hydraulic fluid reservoirs. Heat extraction. Thermal management.

My DREAM Z/28 has everything the first Pedders Supercar had, but more across the board. No more fly swatter. My Z/28 would be a Muscle Car Phalanx capable of destroying most anything that gets in the way. Yes I know the Camaro is a relatively large and heavy car for this assignment, but if it were the size of a Vette it wouldn't be a challenge.
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