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Old 07-09-2011, 12:35 AM   #18
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Ted, good to see a fellow Ty'er on another forum! I think we've spoke on the phone before over a few different things.. anyway..

Has anyone approached KB regarding the tube size? I totally agree with you, and was even considering putting a "bottleneck" inside the 4.5 and see if it helps. Mine has always been spongy around idle. Not to contradict myself either because I'm learning the tuning as fast as I can, but wouldn't teh VE tables and/or the MAP tables, and the combination of the 3 correct for the lower resolution within the MAF?
Granted, I do think the look of the huge polished tube is pretty tough, but looks doesn't mean squat if you cant drive it.
I have many of the "make your own CAI" components in my store and what got me thinking of the bottleneck idea was that one of the MAF tube pieces has a selection of different diameter cones to intall to help correct MAF calibration and selection. Why not put a small 6-8" long )( within the tube to increase the air velocity at the sensor? I know intake plenum volume is somewhat critical, but I can also see where a 3" tube may be too restrictive on a blower car, let alone with a big cam?
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:17 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by HRC View Post
Ted, good to see a fellow Ty'er on another forum! I think we've spoke on the phone before over a few different things.. anyway..

Has anyone approached KB regarding the tube size? I totally agree with you, and was even considering putting a "bottleneck" inside the 4.5 and see if it helps. Mine has always been spongy around idle. Not to contradict myself either because I'm learning the tuning as fast as I can, but wouldn't teh VE tables and/or the MAP tables, and the combination of the 3 correct for the lower resolution within the MAF?
Granted, I do think the look of the huge polished tube is pretty tough, but looks doesn't mean squat if you cant drive it.
I have many of the "make your own CAI" components in my store and what got me thinking of the bottleneck idea was that one of the MAF tube pieces has a selection of different diameter cones to intall to help correct MAF calibration and selection. Why not put a small 6-8" long )( within the tube to increase the air velocity at the sensor? I know intake plenum volume is somewhat critical, but I can also see where a 3" tube may be too restrictive on a blower car, let alone with a big cam?
LOL, yeah you caught me Doing What I love to do, MAKE HP!

I have, but they don't feel my Opinion is Valid.

Same with the IAT issues.

It is best to keep the pipe size consistent and smooth to avoid Turbulence, 4 inch is the Correct Size.

Ted.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:58 PM   #20
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My car is sitting at ECS getting that exact tube done. THey told me the same thing last week and when I contacted KB I was told they were not aware of this issue and referred me to the KB tuner. I just received email saying that the honeycomb stream straightener would resolve this. ???? What honeycomb straightener, not in my kit???? So I will let ecs do their magic and be done with this.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:00 PM   #21
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Never said anything like that Ted we have shown nothing but appreciation for your input and information. We have to ask ourselves why only a small amount of shops can't seem to tune the tube while some can? You implied that it cant be done with the current tube but it can. 4" is not the correct size for our kit. NO NEED TO CHANGE THE TUBE just find a good tuner who can tune for the way the kit comes.
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LOL, yeah you caught me Doing What I love to do, MAKE HP!

I have, but they don't feel my Opinion is Valid.

Same with the IAT issues.

It is best to keep the pipe size consistent and smooth to avoid Turbulence, 4 inch is the Correct Size.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:21 PM   #22
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Never said anything like that Ted we have shown nothing but appreciation for your input and information. We have to ask ourselves why only a small amount of shops can't seem to tune the tube while some can? You implied that it cant be done with the current tube but it can. 4" is not the correct size for our kit. NO NEED TO CHANGE THE TUBE just find a good tuner who can tune for the way the kit comes.
When I called about the intake tube I was shut down immediately, again I only Deal in FACTS.

I can tune with the 4.5 inch tube, and Have several times, AGAIN I didn't say I couldn't tune with it.

I find we make exactly the same power and have better resolution with the 4 inch tube.

Also the L99 Cars Trans Computer can not properly calculate engine Torque with the 4.5 inch Tube.

Most all of these cars run a STOCK or Ported STOCK TB so why do we need a 4.5 inch tube?

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:47 PM   #23
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Never said anything like that Ted we have shown nothing but appreciation for your input and information. We have to ask ourselves why only a small amount of shops can't seem to tune the tube while some can? You implied that it cant be done with the current tube but it can. 4" is not the correct size for our kit. NO NEED TO CHANGE THE TUBE just find a good tuner who can tune for the way the kit comes.

If ted cant tune it, I dont think jesus would be able to tune it lol
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:49 PM   #24
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If you can tune it then why have people change it? No need to change it then if it can be done. You contradict yourself by saying you can do it but all this time you been saying it has to be changed to a 4". Why do you want to sell customers smaller tubes if you can tune the 4.5"?
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When I called about the intake tube I was shut down immediately, again I only Deal in FACTS.

I can tune with the 4.5 inch tube, and Have several times, AGAIN I didn't say I couldn't tune with it.

I find we make exactly the same power and have better resolution with the 4 inch tube.

Also the L99 Cars Trans Computer can not properly calculate engine Torque with the 4.5 inch Tube.

Most all of these cars run a STOCK or Ported STOCK TB so why do we need a 4.5 inch tube?

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:59 PM   #25
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If you can tune it then why have people change it? No need to change it then if it can be done. You contradict yourself by saying you can do it but all this time you been saying it has to be changed to a 4". Why do you want to sell customers smaller tubes if you can tune the 4.5"?
I guess your skimming over the Stuff I write too fast, and assuming I said something I didn't.

It is all about Resolution and TCM Torque calculations.

Why reduce your Resolution when there is SO much Range in the Stock MAF.

I can understand if this is a carry over from the Ford Kits Where Maxing the MAF is So common, this would require a bigger tube or a MAFIA to scale the MAF back to increase the range.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:21 PM   #26
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Not assuming, its what you have told customers in the past maybe not in this thread but it has been said before. Some of your customer have called us to ask if its necessary after speaking with Janetty Racing. Why would this thread be started in the first place if someone didn't tell one of these customers it was necessary?
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:26 PM   #27
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Not assuming, its what you have told customers in the past maybe not in this thread but it has been said before. Some of your customer have called us to ask if its necessary after speaking with Janetty Racing. Why would this thread be started in the first place if someone didn't tell one of these customers it was necessary?
Because when you hear something second hand it can easily be taken out of context.

And it is 1 Customer, Whom I explained the Resolution issue to and it was his words not mine.

Unless I called you and told you personally or put it in writing on this site it may not be reliable or translated Properly.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:52 PM   #28
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But you admit saying it then to one customer? And you back it up in this thread. So i would say that makes it pretty reliable. Maybe not 100% correct on what came out of your mouth but you do admit to telling a customer the only way to fix it is to change the tube to the 4". All we are saying is that it does NOT need to be changed to fix the issue which has been proven by the shops that can tune it.
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Because when you hear something second hand it can easily be taken out of context.

And it is 1 Customer, Whom I explained the Resolution issue to and it was his words not mine.

Unless I called you and told you personally or put it in writing on this site it may not be reliable or translated Properly.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:11 PM   #29
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But you admit saying it then to one customer? And you back it up in this thread. So i would say that makes it pretty reliable. Maybe not 100% correct on what came out of your mouth but you do admit to telling a customer the only way to fix it is to change the tube to the 4". All we are saying is that it does NOT need to be changed to fix the issue which has been proven by the shops that can tune it.
This is Getting Stupid Now.

I didn't tell that customer I could not tune it, SO WRONG AGAIN!

I said it would be Easier with better resolution, Again your Getting Second Hand Information and Putting words in my mouth.

He gave up on me before I could finish the tune, I did not give up on him.

I had one Here Last Friday with a Pretty Big Cam in it and It Runs Really Good, LS3, Customer is Totally Satisfied, but I still would like to have better resolution.

I can't help it if I am in the Pursuit of Perfection.

So Please Stop Dancing Around the FACTUAL DATA.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:27 PM   #30
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I don't see a problem. I asked a question and was just looking to see if my tuner was correct with his remarks about the maf and intake tube. Which turns out to be on par with what TJ was saying. The fact that it takes a few days to get a response from KB and my car was sitting in my tuners lot, I needed answers. Now I know my options.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:45 PM   #31
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Not putting words in your mouth just saying what was said and what we see from your post. Seems to all add up. We hear from a customer you recommend this and then you back it up here so put the two together. If you can tune that LS3 with a pretty big cam and the 4.5" tube, why would you tell another customer to change his tube to a 4". No dancing around Ted just going by what has been told to our customer, which was that you recommended a smaller tube to get the car to run right when it was all in your tune. Again something you STILL BACK ON HERE.
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This is Getting Stupid Now.

I didn't tell that customer I could not tune it, SO WRONG AGAIN!

I said it would be Easier with better resolution, Again your Getting Second Hand Information and Putting words in my mouth.

He gave up on me before I could finish the tune, I did not give up on him.

I had one Here Last Friday with a Pretty Big Cam in it and It Runs Really Good, LS3, Customer is Totally Satisfied, but I still would like to have better resolution.

I can't help it if I am in the Pursuit of Perfection.

So Please Stop Dancing Around the FACTUAL DATA.

Ted.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:47 PM   #32
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The problem is misinformation given out by shops. You don't need to change your tube you just need a good tuner that knows his/her stuff. You got to ask yourself why all the KB kit owners can run there kit with the tube but only a few can't? Its in the tune.
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I don't see a problem. I asked a question and was just looking to see if my tuner was correct with his remarks about the maf and intake tube. Which turns out to be on par with what TJ was saying. The fact that it takes a few days to get a response from KB and my car was sitting in my tuners lot, I needed answers. Now I know my options.
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #33
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Here is My Take on the Intake tube, No Flaming Please.

Although it is GREAT for the BIG Peak HP number Driveability suffers due to lost resolution.

The Gen5 MAF has a Range of 16000 Hz, Even some of our KILLER builds only Reach 14500 Hz so we have Plenty of MAF in a 4 in pipe.

Stock Cars with no Supercharger will go to 9000 Hz

With the 4.5 inch KB pipe at 10 psi boost we Rarely see more than 9000 Hz

Going to a 4 inch intake tube restores resolution, and torque calculations done by the TCM, so this is especially important on the L99 Cars.

Also a Stock Car will Idle around 2500 Hz the KB with 4.5 in Pipe will Idle around 1500 Hz, so Again Lost Resolution.

Ted.
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The problem is misinformation given out by shops. You don't need to change your tube you just need a good tuner that knows his/her stuff. You got to ask yourself why all the KB kit owners can run there kit with the tube but only a few can't? Its in the tune.


Matt, I am not here to argue with you by any means, and I respect your position on the boards here, along with purchasing products from you. However, I have to agree with Ted here, and your approach towards him seems a little less then professional IMHO.

Ted is providing factual data that is absolutely true. Can the set up be tuned as it sits? Yes, is it less then perfect in my personal opinion? Yes, not all tuners are ok with less then perfect.

Not only does it cause less resolution of the MAF, but it also messes with trans tables on the auto's because of that.

So by what you have posted here, myself and Ted basically do not know what we are doing as tuners, and the customers should go elsewhere? Ted seems to have a pretty good reputation here, and I hope the same for myself. I do not personally know Ted's tuning back ground, but I have literally tuned 1000's of LS powered vehicles, Many of them being record holding cars like fastest stock bottom end LS1-LS6-LS2, LS3, and fastest supercharged Vette. With a quick look at my EFI live V2 box, I have made over 8000 down loads since mid 09, and thats not including the cars we tune with HP tuners or SCT. I do not consider myself the smartest guy in the world, but after tuning all day, everyday for the last ten years, even I picked up a few things along the way. Proper sized charge tubes with a card style MAF, and MAF placement, is one of them.

I'm also curious why you would cancel someones warranty if they change the intake tube? The throttle body is 4", so it necks down anyway, changing the intake tube would not effect your product in the least? This is going to cost the customer a fair amount of money and time, my additional time added to the tuning process, and now the warranty will be null and viod?

If we can proceed with this thread in a professional manor, I'll be happy to provide data logs etc to back up what Ted and I are saying, along with new data logs after we replace the intake tube today. If not, then this is my first and last post in this thread.



Thanks, take care.

Doug @ ECS
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:13 AM   #34
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I can see where your coming from but not once have I questioned who Ted is as a person. What I questioned is the need to change the 4.5" tube. I have been nothing but nice and respectful to Ted before he made contradicting comments and made it seem as we if didn't take his information seriously before I even chimed in. We know Ted has a great reputation on here that is why we want it to be known that the 4.5" tube doesn't have to be changed to get the car to run right. Someone with such influence in the Camaro community making claims like that would cause serious problems and concern for customers, especially since it is NOT necessary. So to get KB customers to changes their kits for something that is not needed is what were trying to stop. What doesn't make sense is that many shops are tuning for the 4.5" tube with no issues. He even said himself he can tune with the 4.5" tube, even on a car with a built engine and big cam. I just ask why can you only tune for the 4.5" tube on some not all? Warranty will be void due to the altering of the kit, why wouldn't it be? The 4.5" tube is a major portion of the kit. Ted said it himself he can tune the 4.5" tube so you should have no problems as well. Again, no reason to change the 4.5" tube.
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Matt, I am not here to argue with you by any means, and I respect your position on the boards here, along with purchasing products from you. However, I have to agree with Ted here, and your approach towards him seems a little less then professional IMHO.

Ted is providing factual data that is absolutely true. Can the set up be tuned as it sits? Yes, is it less then perfect in my personal opinion? Yes, not all tuners are ok with less then perfect.

Not only does it cause less resolution of the MAF, but it also messes with trans tables on the auto's because of that.

So by what you have posted here, myself and Ted basically do not know what we are doing as tuners, and the customers should go elsewhere? Ted seems to have a pretty good reputation here, and I hope the same for myself. I do not personally know Ted's tuning back ground, but I have literally tuned 1000's of LS powered vehicles, Many of them being record holding cars like fastest stock bottom end LS1-LS6-LS2, LS3, and fastest supercharged Vette. With a quick look at my EFI live V2 box, I have made over 8000 down loads since mid 09, and thats not including the cars we tune with HP tuners or SCT. I do not consider myself the smartest guy in the world, but after tuning all day, everyday for the last ten years, even I picked up a few things along the way. Proper sized charge tubes with a card style MAF, and MAF placement, is one of them.

I'm also curious why you would cancel someones warranty if they change the intake tube? The throttle body is 4", so it necks down anyway, changing the intake tube would not effect your product in the least? This is going to cost the customer a fair amount of money and time, my additional time added to the tuning process, and now the warranty will be null and viod?

If we can proceed with this thread in a professional manor, I'll be happy to provide data logs etc to back up what Ted and I are saying, along with new data logs after we replace the intake tube today. If not, then this is my first and last post in this thread.



Thanks, take care.

Doug @ ECS
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LOL, yeah you caught me Doing What I love to do, MAKE HP!

I have, but they don't feel my Opinion is Valid.

Same with the IAT issues.

It is best to keep the pipe size consistent and smooth to avoid Turbulence, 4 inch is the Correct Size.

Ted.
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