Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
JDP Motorsports
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2011, 05:58 PM   #86
Matt@KB
 
Matt@KB's Avatar
 
Drives: 67 Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rancho Cucamonga
Posts: 83
FILTERS & PIPES

4.5" (1750 CFM) vs 4" (1412 CFM) pipes are 33" long like Camaro Mammoth standard production kit.
Good filter design will increase flow.
Matt@KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 05:59 PM   #87
Matt@KB
 
Matt@KB's Avatar
 
Drives: 67 Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rancho Cucamonga
Posts: 83
33" LONG PIPES ONLY

4.5" (1609 CFM) vs 4" (1121CFM). Once the length is determined, the inlet opening must be optimized.
Matt@KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 06:01 PM   #88
Matt@KB
 
Matt@KB's Avatar
 
Drives: 67 Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rancho Cucamonga
Posts: 83
SHORT 3" PIPES

The 4.5" x 3" flows 1324 CFM vs the 4" x 3" 1064 CFM.
It illustrates how crucial the relationship between pipe size and length is. But 33" long pipes flow 1609 and 1121 respectively.

Matt@KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2011, 08:18 PM   #89
MARZ
 
MARZ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 BMW 335d
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: U.S.
Posts: 65
I love it. If you have any kind of issue with KB or their product, or don't agree with something they've stated, it must be because you're a Whipple dealer and making everything up. I guess the KB customers complaining about the super-high IAT's are lying too, right? I've seen several posts from Whipple owners, most of whom have either relocated their IAT sensor to the "correct" location or have one of Whipple's new kits with the sensor already moved (wow, a supercharger company that actually responds to their customer's concerns and demands rather than resorting to excuses and rhetoric) and I haven't heard one peep about high IAT's.
MARZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 08:24 AM   #90
JANNETTYRACING
PRESIDENT CALIBRATOR JRE

 
JANNETTYRACING's Avatar
 
Drives: YELLOW 2013 ZL1 AUTO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT.
Posts: 10,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt@KB View Post
4.5" v 4.0" INLET PIPING

Perhaps this data will explain why I prefer the 4.5" pipe vs the 4" or 3.5"- and cool air vs hot air. PD superchargers kits are extremely sensitive to ANY inlet restriction. Our goal is to keep it as close to “0" restriction as possible at all HP levels. Here is the Camaro rear inlet Mammoth system. All components are flow tested individually and as an assembly during the R&D phase. The custom KB bench will flow 1200HP and can actually measure the CFM/boost/HP loss on the bench without a dyno. Years of testing has given us a data base to compute inlet tract HP loss.

Everyone knows what a stock Camaro inlet system looks like. It flows 964 CFM (see KB website Camaro superchargers) vs 1750 CFM ( 4.5" Mammoth production) and 1412 (4"). That’s +20%.

Note how length and the filter itself affect air flow. We test all GM, Ford and Dodge stock inlets, throttle bodies and manifolds. They were originally designed to be efficient at 125-650 less HP so are a restriction to the supercharger and make it less efficient.

Also, all our data is based on outside the engine bay cool air. Hot under-hood air not only contains less oxygen it’s volume is directly proportional to temperature. So this hot air, which occupies more space, does not flow as well through the inlet components or supercharger.

We occasionally test with the dyno room heated up to 180*. This does require leaving the room.

What I would like to see is this same set up tested with the 4.5 VS the 4 inch tube.

What does this exact set up flow?

It is my opinion that the throttle body is the restriction here not the pipes.

It comes down to the same question I have been asking

AT WHAT HP LEVEL DOES THE 4 INCH INLET PIPE BECOME A RESTRICTION ON A 3.5 INCH THROTTLE BODY???

Any Air flow system is only as good as it's smallest Hole.

Ted.
__________________
Technical information, Parts Sales, Professional Installation, and Custom Dyno Tuning.
Please vist our web sites for all your performance needs!
Ted Jannetty
Jannetty Racing Ent Inc.
2984 East Main St.
Waterbury Ct. 06705
203-753-7223
tedj@jannettyracing.com
www.jannettyracing.com
www.turboaddictionparts.com
Performance Parts
JANNETTYRACING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:12 AM   #91
old motorhead

 
Drives: Maggie blown LS3 vette
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SE TX
Posts: 1,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
What I would like to see is this same set up tested with the 4.5 VS the 4 inch tube.

What does this exact set up flow?

It is my opinion that the throttle body is the restriction here not the pipes.

It comes down to the same question I have been asking

AT WHAT HP LEVEL DOES THE 4 INCH INLET PIPE BECOME A RESTRICTION ON A 3.5 INCH THROTTLE BODY???

Any Air flow system is only as good as it's smallest Hole.

Ted.
A 4" pipe has fully 30% more flow capability vs a 3.5" pipe. Obviously, a 4" pipe in front of a 3.5" orifice creates no restriction.
old motorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 09:23 AM   #92
JANNETTYRACING
PRESIDENT CALIBRATOR JRE

 
JANNETTYRACING's Avatar
 
Drives: YELLOW 2013 ZL1 AUTO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT.
Posts: 10,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by old motorhead View Post
A 4" pipe has fully 30% more flow capability vs a 3.5" pipe. Obviously, a 4" pipe in front of a 3.5" orifice creates no restriction.
__________________
Technical information, Parts Sales, Professional Installation, and Custom Dyno Tuning.
Please vist our web sites for all your performance needs!
Ted Jannetty
Jannetty Racing Ent Inc.
2984 East Main St.
Waterbury Ct. 06705
203-753-7223
tedj@jannettyracing.com
www.jannettyracing.com
www.turboaddictionparts.com
Performance Parts
JANNETTYRACING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:42 AM   #93
East Coast Supercharging

 
East Coast Supercharging's Avatar
 
Drives: 8 second C5 Drag Car, C6 Road racer
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cream Ridge, NJ 609-752-0321
Posts: 763
I like centrifugals.





Doug @ ECS
East Coast Supercharging is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 10:58 AM   #94
NickJRE


 
NickJRE's Avatar
 
Drives: Nothing Fun.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: CT
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by East Coast Supercharging View Post
I like centrifugals.





Doug @ ECS

NickJRE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2011, 08:47 PM   #95
Matt@KB
 
Matt@KB's Avatar
 
Drives: 67 Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rancho Cucamonga
Posts: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARZ View Post
I love it. If you have any kind of issue with KB or their product, or don't agree with something they've stated, it must be because you're a Whipple dealer and making everything up. I guess the KB customers complaining about the super-high IAT's are lying too, right? I've seen several posts from Whipple owners, most of whom have either relocated their IAT sensor to the "correct" location or have one of Whipple's new kits with the sensor already moved (wow, a supercharger company that actually responds to their customer's concerns and demands rather than resorting to excuses and rhetoric) and I haven't heard one peep about high IAT's.
Never presume or assume anything. The "stock" LS3/L99 IAT sensor is a part of the MAF and cannot be relocated. They are using a sensor from another application (coincidentally the same as ours) Delphi P/N 12160244. If the sensor is not the same, chances are the transfer function is not the same. That causes erroneous readings. You have the stock transfer function in your tune. So does the "other" kit's tune. This means the IATS will read lower (significantly lower) all the way along the function. The lower the temperature the more the error towards a "colder than reality" reading.

CORRECT IAT TEMPERATURE
If you are unsure your transfer function is correct, try this simple test: Wait until the car is completely cooled (24 hrs minimum). This will stabilize the temperatures of both the ECT and IAT so they should match. Put both the IAT and ECT parameters in your PID list and do a simple key on. DO NOT START THE CAR. Just take data. If the IAT transfer function is correct, you will see the ECT and IAT both match (within a degree like below).



INCORRECT IAT TEMPERATURE

However, if the 12160244 sensor is used and the STOCK transfer function is used (as in your case and the "other" kit), you will see the following error (13 degrees LOWER in this case):



As you can see, using the STOCK transfer function with the 12160244 sensor will cause the temperature to be read considerably lower than reality.

For those interested in correcting their transfer functions, we have supplied the following corrected function for the 12160244 sensor:

Ohms Value C Value F
48 150 302
60 140 284
78 130 266
101 120 248
133 110 230
178 100 212
242 90 194
283 85 185
334 80 176
395 75 167
469 70 158
559 65 149
671 60 140
809 55 131
980 50 122
1195 45 113
1465 40 104
1806 35 95
2240 30 86
2795 25 77
3511 20 68
4441 15 59
5658 10 50
7263 5 41
9399 0 32
12261 -5 23
16120 -10 14
21371 -15 5
28582 -20 -4
38583 -25 -13
52594 -30 -22
72437 -35 -31
100865 -40 -40

We have not seen or tested any other Camaros (mfg tune or re-tuned) with the IATs corrected. Even the brand new one we tested today. We hope this will help show a more “realistic” view of actual temperatures. We are exploring other reasons why the “other” kit may show lower that reality readings and will report our findings for those interested.

More to come.......
Matt@KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2011, 08:17 PM   #96
Adam@ST
 
Drives: 2010 SS Camaro
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
Any Air flow system is only as good as it's smallest Hole.

Ted.
I will work on the other questions...but....the smallest hole may be the t-body, but depending on how the air is directed into the t-body, will decrease,BUT in KB's inlet design INCREASE the flow of the t-body. I used the flowbench at Kenne Bell for 2 days doing some of my own research. I did flow testing on inlets, t-bodies, and sheet metal inlet manifolds. The more air you can supply to the t-body, the more the t-body will flow.
Thanks Adam@ST
Adam@ST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2011, 08:16 AM   #97
JANNETTYRACING
PRESIDENT CALIBRATOR JRE

 
JANNETTYRACING's Avatar
 
Drives: YELLOW 2013 ZL1 AUTO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT.
Posts: 10,862
I have the honeycomb sitting on my desk, We used this exact product years ago from a company called Turbo Air Guide or TAG for short.

They increased throttle response and boost rise off Idle but the mid range and top end suffered due to the restriction it posed by reducing cross section.

Just and FYI , I am Way beyond basics of Air flow Dynamics

Building and tuning engines for over 30 years and studying the laws of physics I know a thing or two about how air moves.

You can't possibly believe that the Honeycomb does not reduce Cross section or restrict air flow at any diameter vs straight pipe.

Your Right at 550 HP it does not restrict Air flow but Neither does a 4 inch pipe at 675 RWHP or 775 Engine HP.

So I will ask again, At What HP does the 4 inch pipe become a restriction on a 3.5 in throttle body??????

I already know the answer I am just waiting for a response.

By the Way, that 4.5 to 4 in coupler creates turbulence at the TB with the STEP in size, Any Engineer knows that this reduction in size should be done with a 7 degree included angle convergent cone, not a Step.

Ted.
__________________
Technical information, Parts Sales, Professional Installation, and Custom Dyno Tuning.
Please vist our web sites for all your performance needs!
Ted Jannetty
Jannetty Racing Ent Inc.
2984 East Main St.
Waterbury Ct. 06705
203-753-7223
tedj@jannettyracing.com
www.jannettyracing.com
www.turboaddictionparts.com
Performance Parts
JANNETTYRACING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2011, 08:28 AM   #98
red 2011 ss
 
Drives: red 2011 ss
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
I have the honeycomb sitting on my desk, We used this exact product years ago from a company called Turbo Air Guide or TAG for short.

They increased throttle response and boost rise off Idle but the mid range and top end suffered due to the restriction it posed by reducing cross section.

Just and FYI , I am Way beyond basics of Air flow Dynamics

Building and tuning engines for over 30 years and studying the laws of physics I know a thing or two about how air moves.

You can't possibly believe that the Honeycomb does not reduce Cross section or restrict air flow at any diameter vs straight pipe.

Your Right at 550 HP it does not restrict Air flow but Neither does a 4 inch pipe at 675 RWHP or 775 Engine HP.

So I will ask again, At What HP does the 4 inch pipe become a restriction on a 3.5 in throttle body??????

I already know the answer I am just waiting for a response.

By the Way, that 4.5 to 4 in coupler creates turbulence at the TB with the STEP in size, Any Engineer knows that this reduction in size should be done with a 7 degree included angle convergent cone, not a Step.

Ted.
So ted are you going to make and sell this 4" tube? I want on the list.
red 2011 ss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2011, 06:10 PM   #99
Caliman93230

 
Caliman93230's Avatar
 
Drives: LS3S/C
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CALI
Posts: 1,344
Hey Ted can you verify the calibration for the whipple is it right or wrong ?
__________________
MODS whipple 2.9L s/c, ADM race scoop, 600 rwhp 550 wrtq, .
Caliman93230 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2011, 08:49 AM   #100
JANNETTYRACING
PRESIDENT CALIBRATOR JRE

 
JANNETTYRACING's Avatar
 
Drives: YELLOW 2013 ZL1 AUTO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT.
Posts: 10,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliman93230 View Post
Hey Ted can you verify the calibration for the whipple is it right or wrong ?
It seems the Factory IAT sensor calibration is Wrong For Both Whipple and KB since they use the same Delphi Sensor.

The error is larger at Ambient temp and the error is Smaller as you head toward 90C or 195 F.

So Changing the Calibration only made Both Blowers Read HOTTER.

It was 90 F here on Sat and I loaded the Calibration for the IAT sensor on the KB car and drove on the Highway for several miles and the IAT never dropped below 148 F and ran as high as 155 F.

I Stopped for gas, filled the tank and drove around some more and the temps were between 165 and 175 F.

Seems the longer you drive it the hotter it gets.

This leads me to believe the Heat exchanger is not getting the air flow it needs, and or it is too small but we will know for sure when the Griffin Unit gets here in a week or so.

Ted.
__________________
Technical information, Parts Sales, Professional Installation, and Custom Dyno Tuning.
Please vist our web sites for all your performance needs!
Ted Jannetty
Jannetty Racing Ent Inc.
2984 East Main St.
Waterbury Ct. 06705
203-753-7223
tedj@jannettyracing.com
www.jannettyracing.com
www.turboaddictionparts.com
Performance Parts
JANNETTYRACING is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2011, 09:34 AM   #101
old motorhead

 
Drives: Maggie blown LS3 vette
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SE TX
Posts: 1,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
It seems the Factory IAT sensor calibration is Wrong For Both Whipple and KB since they use the same Delphi Sensor.

The error is larger at Ambient temp and the error is Smaller as you head toward 90C or 195 F.

So Changing the Calibration only made Both Blowers Read HOTTER.

It was 90 F here on Sat and I loaded the Calibration for the IAT sensor on the KB car and drove on the Highway for several miles and the IAT never dropped below 148 F and ran as high as 155 F.

I Stopped for gas, filled the tank and drove around some more and the temps were between 165 and 175 F.

Seems the longer you drive it the hotter it gets.

This leads me to believe the Heat exchanger is not getting the air flow it needs, and or it is too small but we will know for sure when the Griffin Unit gets here in a week or so.

Ted.
If ambient and IAT are the same at cold start up, does that mean the IAT calibration is correct? Both of my TVS2300's are that way at cold start and IAT's are 9 to 12 over ambient at cruise once everything warms up. Rises 35 to 40 over ambient during a 30 to 130 run.
old motorhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2011, 09:47 AM   #102
JANNETTYRACING
PRESIDENT CALIBRATOR JRE

 
JANNETTYRACING's Avatar
 
Drives: YELLOW 2013 ZL1 AUTO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT.
Posts: 10,862
Quote:
Originally Posted by old motorhead View Post
If ambient and IAT are the same at cold start up, does that mean the IAT calibration is correct? Both of my TVS2300's are that way at cold start and IAT's are 9 to 12 over ambient at cruise once everything warms up. Rises 35 to 40 over ambient during a 30 to 130 run.
We can assume is it correct at that particular temp.

Ted.
__________________
Technical information, Parts Sales, Professional Installation, and Custom Dyno Tuning.
Please vist our web sites for all your performance needs!
Ted Jannetty
Jannetty Racing Ent Inc.
2984 East Main St.
Waterbury Ct. 06705
203-753-7223
tedj@jannettyracing.com
www.jannettyracing.com
www.turboaddictionparts.com
Performance Parts
JANNETTYRACING is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hot air Intakes -By Kenne bell ADM PERFORMANCE Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 66 02-08-2011 09:33 PM
10.54@134 Kenne Bell SC'd Adam@ST USA - California 15 08-01-2010 04:14 PM
L99 Kenne Bell 2.8L Installed + Pics SonnyakaPig Forced Induction - V8 38 05-17-2010 04:20 PM
Kenne Bell Supercharger Release Special (FREE INSTALL) Total_Perf_Eng Forced Induction 33 04-16-2010 12:00 PM
List of Intakes that will work with the TVS-2300 MagnaCharger JJ2010 Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 26 03-19-2010 03:11 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.