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Old 06-05-2011, 09:53 PM   #26
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Ford doesn't have a Corvette equivalent. The Mustang is all they have to compete with both the Camaro and Corvette, so they are definitely going to release trim packages that the Camaro can't compete with but the Corvette can, and that's not a failing of the Camaro.

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Old 06-05-2011, 09:58 PM   #27
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Lightweight wheels are attainable. As are some power-adders for the LS3. Then, you don't have to live within the constraints of a Corvette which is quite non-functional in terms of cargo and passenger space.
Agreed, you can make the LS3 blow the doors of a BOSS 302... yet still have a stock looking car and interior with cargo space. Might not be for everyone, but its a perfect combo for me, Loads of power and speed (S/C or bolt ons), and on the nice sunny day when I want to go to the beach, I can pack up the cooler/chairs in my Camaro and make a day of it . Not so easy in a vette or Boss 302 is it?
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:02 PM   #28
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The next time I see a boss 302 will be the first time. Thats not what chevy is worried about,its the GT500, there actually selling
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:05 PM   #29
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No offense but did you go from wanting a Camaro to wanting a Camaro AutoX equipped to a Mustang to a Corvette Grand Sport for what $100,000.00? Also at roughly 2x the cost of any car you were considering or wishing GM would build?
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:09 PM   #30
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Unless you mean because the GT is better you're mistaken
How about a car that is actually in production that competes with a Vette?
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:25 PM   #31
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I couldn't care less about performance...a Mustang is still just a Mustang. Nice cars and all, but Camaros they ain't. It goes beyond performance.
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A vivid testament to the simple fact that you can not please all of the people all of the time...at least most of us are happy with our ride.
+1

Driving OrangeVert this weekend, everyone who commented seemed to love the IO Camaro vert and sound of the LS3!! Can it beat a Mustang? Maybe, maybe not. Didn't buy it to race.

It's a bundle of fun to drive, makes me and my wife feel like rock stars! And oohh the throaty SS V8 roar, thirsty bird but oh what fun!! '68 to '72 era again, but this time we were able to do it right!! Can't wait for next weekend's outings!
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:26 PM   #32
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Is a lower weight that important?

Mustang = anorexic 70 lb girl.

Camaro = a smokin hot 110 lb victoria secret model.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:43 PM   #33
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Unless you mean because the GT is better you're mistaken
In what area would the Ford GT beat a ZR1 Corvette exactly? It certainly isn't in the o-60 or the 1/4 or top speed or cornering and braking. Not to mention the GT cost about 40k more that a base ZR1 does today.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:43 PM   #34
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Since we are on the topic of mustangs, I hear people talking about how the new 5.0. Mustang GT runs a tad faster than the SS. I would believe that with JUST new gearing in the SS that as at least equivalent to the 5.0's 3.73, they would be on par.
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:29 PM   #35
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When the 5th Gen Camaro platform has been out as long as the S-197 and still hasn't offered anything, then you might have grounds to complain. But expecting to see this kind of stuff on the third model year into production doesn't sound reasonable - it sounds petulant.

Ford doesn't have a Corvette equivalent. The Mustang is all they have to compete with both the Camaro and Corvette, so they are definitely going to release trim packages that the Camaro can't compete with but the Corvette can, and that's not a failing of the Camaro.
You have a good point regarding the lifespan of the S197 and the C5, however the Camaro has been in planning for much, much longer than it's been in production. Chevy has the technology to make this happen, and I don't doubt they have a Camaro sitting somewhere in the R&D dept just like I'm describing.

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A vivid testament to the simple fact that you can not please all of the people all of the time...at least most of us are happy with our ride.
I'm not asking them to build me a custom Camaro. All I've said is that I wish they'd listen to not just my request, but the requests of many Camaro/potential Camaro owners.

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the Camaro can compete with the GT, but the Boss is a track day car that is in it's own category. what GM brings to that fight is still an overweight, big wheeler.. of course you can get a Grand Sport at much more money, and it's a great car, but i think for the price would you rather have a Boss or a widebody c6? if only GM got serious as Ford, Porsche, Lamborghini, and Ferrari when it comes to lightweight options...
My choice was a widebody C6 .

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Originally Posted by H3LL1ON View Post
No offense but did you go from wanting a Camaro to wanting a Camaro AutoX equipped to a Mustang to a Corvette Grand Sport for what $100,000.00? Also at roughly 2x the cost of any car you were considering or wishing GM would build?
Not sure where you're getting your pricing on Grand Sports, but I paid less for my Grand Sport than the common rumored $50k price of the upcoming ZL1 Camaro.

But to answer your question, I started shopping for a fun daily driver that can pull double-duty for some weekend fun. That fun will be autox, some occasional drag-strip runs and probably some track day fun. Any of the above put a value on weight reduction and two of the three emphasize handling.

There was a time when the F-body held title to all of those grass-roots racing forums. The 3rd and 4th gen Camaros/Firebirds tended to dominate, especially when it came to events that emphasized handling. There has been a role-reversal in that aspect with the C5 and S197. I'm just asking that GM retake that leadership role.

And for those who are too new to the F-body game to know, I'm not asking for something GM hasn't done in the past. The 1LE cars, especially the 1LE 3rd gens, were special and sold well.
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:40 PM   #36
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Since we are on the topic of mustangs, I hear people talking about how the new 5.0. Mustang GT runs a tad faster than the SS. I would believe that with JUST new gearing in the SS that as at least equivalent to the 5.0's 3.73, they would be on par.
In reality the 3.31, 3.55 and 3.73 Mustangs all have almost identical times on stock tires due to traction issues. The car I drove had the 3.55 and required quite a bit of feathering to launch without tons of spin.

I don't doubt the Camaro would benefit from a more aggressive ratio.

My intent wasn't to start another Mustang vs Camaro thread. My intent was to express an opinion on my desire to see additional options on an already very cool platform.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:48 AM   #37
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No problem there. I appreciate mustangs and I don't have that whole "rivalry" thing. Sports cars are all sweet to me.
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:04 AM   #38
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First I want to say "congrats" on the Grand Sport! A Corvette Grand Sport convertible with a 6 speed manual and dual mode exhaust, will be my next car! Couldn't afford one this time around, but will try to buy a two or three year old one in the future!
I too am a long time GM guy and have owned several Vette's new and used along with new Camaro's, Trans AM's and a couple of Grand National Buicks.
GM is watching Ford as Ford has been watching GM! Actually, we have Ford to thank for the Corvette and Camaro. In late 1954 the Corvette was seriously considered to be discontiued when over a 1000 cars were not sold at the end of the model year. Ford came out with the Thunderbird for 1955 and there was no way Chevrolet was going to let Ford have the edge (even though the early TBirds out sold the Vette by a large margin). Chevrolet stuck with the Corvette and soon became a real sports car. When Ford came out with the Mustang in '64 Chevy's answer was the Camaro in '67. And it goes on and on and on! There will be a Camaro Z/28 to compete with the Boss 302 just as the original Boss 302 came out to compete with the Z/28 years ago. For now, I think it was more important for Chevrolet to go after the Shelby with the ZL1.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:38 AM   #39
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Unless you mean because the GT is better you're mistaken
New ZR1 toasts it.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:05 AM   #40
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i hope General Motors takes action!
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:18 AM   #41
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A real GM fan wouldn't find a poorly built car better than the GM product just because the Ford is lighter. Maybe GM could shave some weight from the Camaro by using Power Wheels interiors too.
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:29 AM   #42
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Why the fascination with the Boss, how many do you see on the street? The ones that are out there will more than likely be sitting in a hvac controlled garage. IMO we have the 5.0 covered, now what Chevy has to do is cover the GT500 ala ZL1. Chevy is on the right track.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:00 AM   #43
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We won't see the Z28 until the engine for the C7 Corvette is finalized. There's been a lot of recent debate on this. I'd still like to see a high revving 5.5 liter V8 built on the 3.6 liter V6 technology.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:05 AM   #44
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A real GM fan wouldn't find a poorly built car better than the GM product just because the Ford is lighter. Maybe GM could shave some weight from the Camaro by using Power Wheels interiors too.
Like I said, I'm not going to start another Camaro v. Mustang thread.

Another comment asked why I was so concerned about what Ford is doing; I'm concerned because that is the competition. That is the car that I will compete against in autox or road course events in stock class. If the cars are equal or nearly equal then it comes down to driving skill. If there's a large imbalance, then it's an impossible uphill battle to win. Using autox as an example and as only one portion of the argument, look at the F-stock results from the last National Championship. This is guys like you and I out there driving our cars we love everyday, not some professional driving a highly-modified car. Camaros used to dominate this class and it was the car to have. Last year, over 20 of the top 27 finishers were Mustangs. Not a single Camaro. As a loyal GM guy, that bothers me. Not only do I want to see the Camaro on top, but I'd really love to see a Camaro on top with my name as driver next to it. I guarantee that will not happen in a Camaro with the current configuration.

I use autox as only one example, it does not matter what type of racing you like to do--drag racing, road racing, autox, drifting, etc, extra weight is a hinderance.

What I'm saying if you read my posts is that I simply want a lighter-weight car that is capable of competing in grassroots motorsports. It might be fun to watch professional racing, but that's not me. I want to go and do it, not watch it.

If you would all prefer, remove the Boss 302 or Mustang part of my comments if that's what bothers you. Instead insert my comparison to previous generation F-bodies. As I said in my last post, give me a 1LE, WS6, whatever you want to call it.

Maybe you're right, I'm not as GM loyal as I used to be. That doesn't come from what GM or what Ford has done. I think it's more of a function of maturity and living through the recent economy. Blind faith or loyalty have been replaced with a more objective view of the options. I'm more concerned now about getting every dollar's worth of performance from my purchase than in the past.

Everyone has different priorities when they purchase a performance car. Some emphasize styling, some emphasize performance. I fall into the latter group. If I were the former, as it sounds some of you are, then the Camaro wins hands down. No doubt. However, there is a large group of us performance car buyers that emphasize performance.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:12 AM   #45
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Why the fascination with the Boss, how many do you see on the street? The ones that are out there will more than likely be sitting in a hvac controlled garage. IMO we have the 5.0 covered, now what Chevy has to do is cover the GT500 ala ZL1. Chevy is on the right track.
My fascination with the Boss comes from the concept and well-executed result. I would like Chevy to do the same with the Camaro, that's all. Doesn't even have to be a special model like the Boss; in fact I'd rather it not. I'd rather see a 1LE option on the SS like in the past generations. That would prevent it from being a garage-queen model like you're referring to, and instead a readily available option for those of us who want that extra level of suspension performance and weight reduction.

If I owned a Boss, it would only sit in a HVAC-controlled garage between weekend activities.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:42 AM   #46
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Ok, lets make this simple. Remove all references in my previous posts regarding other car manufacturers.

My suggestion:

1LE option package:

- 18 or 19" wheel to shave weight and give more options on race rubber

- Revised more aggressive suspension tuning; include adjustable dampers as available on 4th gen 1LEs

- add in some light-weight components; nothing major but enough to shave another 100-150lbs. If necessary delete options (aka again previous gen 1LE's) to save weight that aren't necessary; one option that isn't costly is a set of manual-operated race seats (aka that other car we're not referencing that starts with a "B" )

- revised more aggressive transmission or differential gearing

- Functional brake ducting

This package would be great start and require little or no further development or cost. The Camaro would still be giving up size and some weight disadvantage to the competition but would make up for it with the better drivetrain.

For those who argue that the C5 is too new of a platform to have such options, I disagree. The 4th gen Camaro debuted in 1993 with a 1LE option package from the get-go.

The 1LE package was successful for Camaro in the past, why not make it work again?
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:11 AM   #47
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You have a good point regarding the lifespan of the S197 and the C5, however the Camaro has been in planning for much, much longer than it's been in production. Chevy has the technology to make this happen, and I don't doubt they have a Camaro sitting somewhere in the R&D dept just like I'm describing.


And I'll add that I think that had GM's bean counters had done a better job planning for tough times like Ford had, and they didn't go bankrupt and have to restructure in '09, then those R&D cars would be coming out faster. As it is, they waited till the Camaro had already demonstrated that it was a good seller in spite of some of the drawbacks and misgivings, and are now more willing to invest in bringing some of those vehicles out.

I mean, they didn't even bother to have the V6 engines' horsepower SAE certified till the 2011 model, and while the original sales had the V8 dominating, the V6 is now the most-sold model and is getting a new engine in 2012.

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Unless you mean because the GT is better you're mistaken
Hehe, I think the GT is an amazing car, but they aren't being made any longer, so since we've been talking about stock cars that are being made, or will be available in the near future, it doesn't count.

I think that it's valuable to have a company's cars in competitions, or at least have a halo car that is produced in small numbers but represents what the company feels is a pinnacle of it's accomplishments, but unless they make it available to the everyman, it's not going to largely impact more than a few collector's garages.

I will agree with the sentiment that the current Camaro is not the pinnacle of the possible design, but it's still a very important cornerstone in the House of Camaro. It's the first model since the first model to not have a previous run into it, and it had to make it on it's own merits.

Now that it has, and I think sales indicate it's a hit, I believe that GM can have the budget and motivation to push harder and make the Camaro even better than they are now. Were it not doing as well, I doubt you'd be seeing the ZL1 and many of the other changes they've done for 2012.
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Old 06-06-2011, 10:15 AM   #48
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I'll probly get knocked, but in my own opinion, this SS is the best Camaro ever. Heavy or not.. Same goes for the 5.0.. Ppl will always find something to complain about. I do agree with JJKJ about not everyone puts styling before performance.. It works both ways.. But I personally do put performance before styling.. Doesn't mean I won't buy a Camaro soon.. I still plan on an Orange atriped white SS.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:02 PM   #49
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The 1LE was only available to law enforcement so while you may have been able to find one used, it really wasn't a money generator for Chevrolet.

Remember one thing when you buy a Mustang, at the end of the day it sucks driving a Ford and that doesn't change until you get rid of it.
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Old 06-06-2011, 12:17 PM   #50
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The 1LE was only available to law enforcement so while you may have been able to find one used, it really wasn't a money generator for Chevrolet.

Remember one thing when you buy a Mustang, at the end of the day it sucks driving a Ford and that doesn't change until you get rid of it.
Incorrect. The 1LE was available to anyone. You're thinking of the B4C package which had some similarities with the 1LE package. The B4C package was only available to law enforcement departments.

To me it doesn't matter as much who's name or what name is on the side of the car as much as how it makes me smile when I hit the go/stop pedals. Some people get greater satisfaction out of looking at their car, I get greater satisfaction out of driving it--as it was meant to be driven.
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