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Old 06-12-2011, 01:09 PM   #126
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Well I thought about waiting for the ZL-1 (about 10 minutes). No doubt it will be an awesome car but here are my concerns for all of you talking prices. It's a first run of a new performance model. It sounds like it will be a limited production run (1 qtr 2012). It's already being talked about in the $50-55k range and it's not even close to production. For those of us older guys, remember when GM released cars like the ZR-1, GNX, etc for the first time? Sticker price and off the showroom floor price were two totally different numbers and not in a good way. Bottom line, if I was a betting man, for at least the first year, the ZL-1 is going to go for well over sticker. Will be interested to see how many anxiously awaiting it's release will actually be able to afford buying it. If you can good on ya. No hard feelings either way cause first and foremost I am a car guy so I can be happy modding an SS, driving a stocker ZL-1, or anything else for that matter. Excited to see it released but not going to in my garage anytime soon.
One of the main reasons GNX's sold for over MSRP at many of the dealerships that had them was that it was a very limited production vehicle with only 547 being produced, and the GNX was only offered for one model year, 1987.

The 1990 and 1991 ZR1s were also somewhat limited in production (availability of the Mercury Marine engine was a limiting factor along with the price, of course) with just over 3000 being produced in 1990 and just over 2000 being produced in 1991.

I don't believe that the availability and pricing of the 2012 ZL1 will be analogous to the 1987 GNX or the 1990 and 1991 ZR1's, as it has been stated that the ZL1 will not be a limited production vehicle. The ZL1 will have a two quarter (half year) production run for the 2012 model year. Then, of course, the ZL1 will have a full year production run in 2013, and thereafter.

I believe that individuals will be able to obtain 2012 ZL1's at MSRP with a little diligence (finding a dealer that sells at MSRP) and a little patience.

I think it's great that those of us who want a ZL1 will be able to purchase one, and those who want an SS and modify the hell out of it (or not) can do so.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:13 PM   #127
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The guys that have 550hp ZL1 will still have a warranty.... You will not!

To each their own!
I think these guys who shot their waad on the mods are a little pissed because of no warranty and they won't have the cash for a ZL1.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:19 PM   #128
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I am very glad that this will be a regular production vehicles. It gives the zl1 a chance at being a sales and image draw for the camaro, as well as giving an opportunity for enthused fans to buy one.

As for the prices, its been my experience that any car can be bought at the right price (meaning no mark-ups). The key will be using some "street smarts" when shopping, and finding that dealer that wants to make an honest sale. I don't believe in mark-ups (and neither does the resale market) and I'll never overpay for a new car; However it will all depend on how well the car sells in order to obtain a good discount. Timing will definitely be the key in getting a zl1 at the right price.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:20 PM   #129
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After spending lots o' money modding Jeeps and cars a $55K price tag is a deal. Can you get an SS to 575 at the crank for a a little money? Yes. Can you get an SS to 575 w/ magnetic supension, active exhaust, bigger brakes, bigger drive shaft, bigger half shafts, stronger torque converter, stronger transmission, improved aeros, working hood, improved interior, etc.? Not even close. And you'll be able to have a warranty if you can bear not to touch it.

Hell I had that much in an 01 Jeep TJ(Wrangler) when all was said and done and I did 90% or the labor.

Believe it or not thes car is a bargain. I'm sure there are guys here w/ that much into their SSs pretty quick w/ some mods to go. And trust me there can be a ton of headaches when modding a car in regards to reliability and drivability.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:22 PM   #130
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I obviously can't speak for any other SS owners, but there was no way I could have waited another 3 years to get into a Camaro. Will I end up spending as much, or more, on mods to get my car to ZL1 levels? Maybe, but like I said, at least I'm driving one now and not sitting on the couch with my fingers crossed waiting for the day a ZL1 shows up at the doorstep.
I was actually waiting on the Z28 but that's looking more like a pipe dream with each passing update on the ZL1.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:33 PM   #131
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Those of us with modded SS's could care less about a warranty.....we knew the consequences for our actions. I have barely used any warranty I have ever had on my vehicles. For the price of a ZL1, I would have a nice used Z06 in my garage. The ZL1 is a great looking car, minus the steering wheel, and I'm sure if I didn't have my modded SS I would look at one after the price comes down a bit, but all this talk about warranties kills me. I'm still right around the price tag of a ZL1 with all my upgrades including my new 418 stroker motor. Can't wait to give the ZL1 a beat down with my supposed inferior parts car. Call me when the warrantied ZL1 hits low 10s like mine and we will have a better argument........until then, who cares about one. Have fun with both cars. Those of us that race regularly don't think about these things anyways. If it breaks, then fix it with better, stronger parts.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:34 PM   #132
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I think these guys who shot their waad on the mods are a little pissed because of no warranty and they won't have the cash for a ZL1.
Wrong, guess again.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #133
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One of the main reasons GNX's sold for over MSRP at many of the dealerships that had them was that it was a very limited production vehicle with only 547 being produced, and the GNX was only offered for one model year, 1987.

The 1990 and 1991 ZR1s were also somewhat limited in production (availability of the Mercury Marine engine was a limiting factor along with the price, of course) with just over 3000 being produced in 1990 and just over 2000 being produced in 1991.

I don't believe that the availability and pricing of the 2012 ZL1 will be analogous to the 1987 GNX or the 1990 and 1991 ZR1's, as it has been stated that the ZL1 will not be a limited production vehicle. The ZL1 will have a two quarter (half year) production run for the 2012 model year. Then, of course, the ZL1 will have a full year production run in 2013, and thereafter.

I believe that individuals will be able to obtain 2012 ZL1's at MSRP with a little diligence (finding a dealer that sells at MSRP) and a little patience.

I think it's great that those of us who want a ZL1 will be able to purchase one, and those who want an SS and modify the hell out of it (or not) can do so.

Valid points and you very well could be correct. We shall see if a two quarter production run and over-zealous dealers impact the bottom line on the contract. I am still betting the mark-up will be over the top for at least the first year. If they continue to produce, the prices will self-correct. I'm not in the market for one so I'll just sit back and watch.

On another note, nice little collection in your stable.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:41 PM   #134
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I am absolutely just giddy about this car!
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:46 PM   #135
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Those of us with modded SS's could care less about a warranty.....we knew the consequences for our actions. I have barely used any warranty I have ever had on my vehicles. For the price of a ZL1, I would have a nice used Z06 in my garage. The ZL1 is a great looking car, minus the steering wheel, and I'm sure if I didn't have my modded SS I would look at one after the price comes down a bit, but all this talk about warranties kills me. I'm still right around the price tag of a ZL1 with all my upgrades including my new 418 stroker motor. Can't wait to give the ZL1 a beat down with my supposed inferior parts car. Call me when the warrantied ZL1 hits low 10s like mine and we will have a better argument........until then, who cares about one. Have fun with both cars. Those of us that race regularly don't think about these things anyways. If it breaks, then fix it with better, stronger parts.


Yes,but it will never be a ZL1, nor will never have the esteem and value! My money is on the ZL1.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:46 PM   #136
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And on another note......all the extra goodies on the ZL1 are great, but to upgrade to the ones you actually need on an SS is not that expensive. I have no drivability issues and no trouble with braking. I won't be on a road course so I'm good there too. Driveshaft is fine and so is the tranny. If they go, I will replace them. I'm sure the car is a bargain, but I for one am not butt hurt by it for any reason. I like my early production SS. And it makes it even more fun when a car that is not supposed to be that fast wipes the floor with Shelbys and Z06's at the track. I also don't care about the ZL1 name. I didn't mod mine to be one. I modded it to be a bad ass SS pony killer.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:50 PM   #137
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Based on what my CTS-V did stock, the Zr1 should have no problems hitting mid to high 11s with an auto. Hopefully they can keep the weight below 4000 lbs.

I am willing to bet the higher than 550hp number will probably come from a better flowing exhaust than what is on the cts-v. I just don't see them changing anything in the motor just to put it in the zl1. Changing from the puny 2inch to a 3 inch exhaust and a set of mufflers on my V gave me another 25rwhp. I would say they will rate hp at 575hp. I seriously doubt they will go as high as 600hp stock
Actually I think they could make 600hp or close very easy. Since the new GT500 is rumored to be around 600hp, they could do the exhaust just as you said, and make some adjustments in the tune to get them more in that range without really compromising the engine or components from their perspective.

Really though, unless your putting slicks on there, there is only so much you can get out of some street tires before its all a level playing field anyways really.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:52 PM   #138
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And on another note......all the extra goodies on the ZL1 are great, but to upgrade to the ones you actually need on an SS is not that expensive. I have no drivability issues and no trouble with braking. I won't be on a road course so I'm good there too. Driveshaft is fine and so is the tranny. If they go, I will replace them. I'm sure the car is a bargain, but I for one am not butt hurt by it for any reason. I like my early production SS. And it makes it even more fun when a car that is not supposed to be that fast wipes the floor with Shelbys and Z06's at the track. I also don't care about the ZL1 name. I didn't mod mine to be one. I modded it to be a bad ass SS pony killer.

Then why are you posting in the ZL1 thread and trying to rain on our parade?

You may not care about warranty but many of us do. I've been there, done that, and have that T-shirt. I'm done turning wrenches. If that's what you want to do then more power to you. But coming in to this thread to defend whatever you're trying to defend or justify isn't productive or condusive to this particlular thread. You say you're not butt hurt but you words and actions tell otherwise.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:54 PM   #139
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Yes,but it will never be a ZL1, nor will never have the esteem and value! My money is on the ZL1.
Ok.....the first time a ZL1 pulls up next to me and I blow it's doors off, I'll ask the guy about the esteem and value of owning it.
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:57 PM   #140
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Then why are you posting in the ZL1 thread and trying to rain on our parade?

You may not care about warranty but many of us do. I've been there, done that, and have that T-shirt. I'm done turning wrenches. If that's what you want to do then more power to you. But coming in to this thread to defend whatever you're trying to defend or justify isn't productive or condusive to this particlular thread. You say you're not butt hurt but you words and actions tell otherwise.
I'm just commenting on all the posts about the SS being inferior and modding being so bad because of having no warranty. If I wanted a ZL1 I'd go get one. I can afford it trust me. But all of the put downs on the modded cars are getting old. And last I checked anyone could post anywhere they wanted.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:03 PM   #141
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I'm PRETTY sure that a majority of the people who order a ZL1 will mod it. I certainly won't be surprised to see many in the 600 rwhp range after about 3,000-5,000 dollars worth of mods.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:04 PM   #142
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I'm just commenting on all the posts about the SS being inferior and modding being so bad because of having no warranty. If I wanted a ZL1 I'd go get one. I can afford it trust me. But all of the put downs on the modded cars are getting old. And last I checked anyone could post anywhere they wanted.

An SS is inferior to the ZL1 in stock form.

No ones putting down a modded car except for the fact that it loses it's warranty and may or may not have inferior parts down the line from the built engine. No one knows what's in that modded car and who did the mechanical work. It could've been built right or wrong. I've been modding vehicles long enough to know that you never know what's someone had done when they molest a car. If you truley do it correctly you'll be in ZL1 $ very quickly.

According to your own words your car is better. Why do you care what we say here?
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:06 PM   #143
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I'm PRETTY sure that a majority of the people who order a ZL1 will mod it. I certainly won't be surprised to see many in the 600 rwhp range after about 3,000-5,000 dollars worth of mods.
I doubt it, it may seem like a ton of SS owners have modded their cars by adding superchargers, headers or whatever, but really its only a drop in the bucket compared to those that have not.

I think the ratio will be even more so in that favor with the $50k +/- ZL1.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:07 PM   #144
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Good news, but didn't we all kind of expected it? Zeta flows a bit better than Sigma cars, Probaly a more agressive exhaust compared to the CTS-V and isnt it useing electric steering which reduces drivetrain loss like the 2011 GT-500. Assuming boost stays the same I bet it comes in about 575hp Maybe 580hp on the high-end.

Edit: the key advantage I expect the ZL1 will have over the GT-500 is traction, not really power.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:12 PM   #145
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An SS is inferior to the ZL1 in stock form.

No ones putting down a modded car except for the fact that it loses it's warranty and may or may not have inferior parts down the line from the built engine. No one knows what's in that modded car and who did the mechanical work. It could've been built right or wrong. I've been modding vehicles long enough to know that you never know what's someone had done when they molest a car. If you truley do it correctly you'll be in ZL1 $ very quickly.

According to your own words your car is better. Why do you care what we say here?
That's just it. I don't really care which is better but some like to comment about why we wasted our money modding or why it's easier to just get a ZL1. Valid points on all sides. But those same people down the modders and act like warranty is everything. Jut want some of that talk to calm down. Ask a guy that actually modded about why they did it and if they care about warranty before so many go on a rant about it or make comments about it being inferior. Of course it is stock vs stock but with all the cash in mine I guarantee I'm still right around the ZL1 and have some better parts to boot. I love all Camaros but am just tired of all the put downs for doing what so many of us have done.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:24 PM   #146
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As far as I'm concerned, a modded car is like flushing money down a toilet. No dealer will give you a penny more for any of your mods. I hope you like your modded car because your stuck with it or you'll loose your shorts when you sell or trade. Believe me, I have been that route.
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:29 PM   #147
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As far as I'm concerned, a modded car is like flushing money down a toilet. No dealer will give you a penny more for any of your mods. I hope you like your modded car because your stuck with it or you'll loose your shorts when you sell or trade. Believe me, I have been that route.
Once again......didn't mod it to get money from a dealer or to sell it. I keep my cars and do the work on them. Still have my modded GTO and plan on buying a Vette or CTS V next. I don't buy to trade or sell. That makes no sense. And yes I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Why buy to sell anyways?
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:31 PM   #148
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And how is it flushing money away? If you got it then spend it. Sure as hell can't take it with me when I die.....
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:34 PM   #149
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any idea if it will be offered in the synergy green?
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:43 PM   #150
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That's just it. I don't really care which is better but some like to comment about why we wasted our money modding or why it's easier to just get a ZL1. Valid points on all sides. But those same people down the modders and act like warranty is everything. Jut want some of that talk to calm down. Ask a guy that actually modded about why they did it and if they care about warranty before so many go on a rant about it or make comments about it being inferior. Of course it is stock vs stock but with all the cash in mine I guarantee I'm still right around the ZL1 and have some better parts to boot. I love all Camaros but am just tired of all the put downs for doing what so many of us have done.
I haven't read many posts on C5 where people have stated that those who have modified their SSs have wasted their money. However, I have read some posts where people have indicated that purchasing a ZL1 will be a waste of money, since they say that they can obtain the same performance with a modified SS for less money.

I am one of the people to whom a factory warranty is important since at this point I don't want to have to fix any major items myself. I also like the fact that the ZL1 will be ready for the strip and the track right off of the showroom floor.
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