Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
B&M
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Dragstrip and Launch Techniques Discussion

Dragstrip and Launch Techniques Discussion 1/4 mile, 1/8 mile, launch discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-11-2009, 06:10 PM   #1
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
horsepower vs torque

i just found a really good explanation of the relationship between the two and which really wins races.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-ls...hp-torque.html


that page also has a link to a 1/4 mile time estimator (it puts the 5th gen LS3 @ 12.9)

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/qua...it=Get+Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
What's the advantage of High revs with the same power?

http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 07:17 PM   #2
MRK III Z28
SoCal C5 Family Member
 
MRK III Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 1968 Mustang
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Ana, California
Posts: 199
Send a message via AIM to MRK III Z28
Thanks Zebra that was a good read
MRK III Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 09:58 PM   #3
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
I wrote a 'beginners guide' a while ago (same title, but oddly a slightly different topic . . .)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
and before that, I created this thread: Whats the advantage of high revs with the same power?

Just a bit more supplementary info for those who are interested.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 10:03 PM   #4
Camaro_Corvette
36.833283,-76.021958
 
Camaro_Corvette's Avatar
 
Drives: Team 1LE
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 23,168
OOOH, good read
__________________
I hate parking threads...
Camaro_Corvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 10:29 PM   #5
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I wrote a 'beginners guide' a while ago (same title, but oddly a slightly different topic . . .)


and before that, I created this thread: Whats the advantage of high revs with the same power?

Just a bit more supplementary info for those who are interested.
i understood that, but afterwards, my head
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 10:30 PM   #6
Camaro_Corvette
36.833283,-76.021958
 
Camaro_Corvette's Avatar
 
Drives: Team 1LE
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 23,168
ROTFLMAO
__________________
I hate parking threads...
Camaro_Corvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 10:41 AM   #7
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
YYYYEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!! Tech' talk
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 10:59 AM   #8
garagelogic
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
i just found a really good explanation of the relationship between the two and which really wins races.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-ls...hp-torque.html


that page also has a link to a 1/4 mile time estimator (it puts the 5th gen LS3 @ 12.9)

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/qua...it=Get+Results
Thanks for sharing. It's always a good idea to help educate the masses on things that are commonly misunderstood.

BTW, did you include the weight of the driver along with the curb weight of the car when you arrived at that 12.9 number? I used the 3860 curb weight listed for the manual SS (426hp) and a driver weighing 140lbs (4000 total weight) and arrived at a 13.065

Using the same calculator, a GT500 (500hp) with a curb weight 3920 of plus the same 140lb driver (4060 total weight) gave me a 12.448

While there have been GT500's in stock form run those numbers, it is not the norm. I would hazard to say if the calculator is worth anything at all, very few SS Camaro's will be running 13-flat in stock form. Time will tell, I guess.

Last edited by garagelogic; 03-13-2009 at 02:10 PM.
garagelogic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 02:00 AM   #9
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Thanks for sharing. It's always a good idea to help educate the masses on things that are commonly misunderstood.

BTW, did you include the weight of the driver along with the curb weight of the car when you arrived at that 12.9 number? I used the 3860 curb weight listed for the manual SS (426hp) and a driver weighing 140lbs (4000 total weight) and arrived at a 13.065

Using the same calculator, a GT500 (500hp) with a curb weight 3920 of plus the same 140lb driver (4060 total weight) gave me a 12.448

While there have been GT500's in stock form run those numbers, it is not the norm. I would hazard to say if the calculator is worth anything at all, very few SS Camaro's will be running 13-flat in stock form. Time will tell, I guess.
good point! i just used curb weight. by the way, does curb weight include a tank of gas?

and that calculator is definitely just an approximator. get a good tail wind & a nice cool temp and you might could pull off high 12s
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 03:05 AM   #10
Mythic
 
Mythic's Avatar
 
Drives: '03 Monte Carlo SS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VaBeach VA
Posts: 349
http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower
Mythic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 03:20 AM   #11
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
good link!

Quote:
The car with the V8 will be named Redneck, and the car with the 4 cylinder will be named Ricer. The V8 can rev to 6000RPM and produce a ton of torque, while 4 cylinder can to rev way up to 9000RPM and produce a fair bit of torque.
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 09:02 AM   #12
garagelogic
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
good point! i just used curb weight. by the way, does curb weight include a tank of gas?

and that calculator is definitely just an approximator. get a good tail wind & a nice cool temp and you might could pull off high 12s
Yes, as I understand it, the official curb weight number is a reflection of what the car would weigh with all available options installed and a full tank of fuel.

I have no doubt we will see instances where SS's are getting into the 12's. I think we will see evidence of SS's running in the mid-to-high 13's, too, due to factors such as track conditions, temps, driver error, etc.
garagelogic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #13
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
yeah. after driving slow cars all my life (with the exception of when i hit up used lots), i'm just happy with a 12-13 second car, period!
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2009, 05:00 PM   #14
Beamer
N00B
 
Beamer's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 Cobalt SS/SC-Toy | 97Cavalier-DD
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Indian Trail, NC(outside Charlotte)
Posts: 140
Send a message via Yahoo to Beamer
very good read
__________________
Beamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2009, 11:31 AM   #15
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
that guy has a few other good articles too
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2009, 12:14 PM   #16
boxmonkeyracing
juggernaut
 
boxmonkeyracing's Avatar
 
Drives: VRSCF, 2011 SS vert
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: kenly, nc
Posts: 3,345
Send a message via AIM to boxmonkeyracing Send a message via Yahoo to boxmonkeyracing
Someone's going to get a freak ls3 and be able to pull some crazy times lol. Can't wait to see the disbelief of some.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
boxmonkeyracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2009, 01:54 PM   #17
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
Someone's going to get a freak ls3 and be able to pull some crazy times lol. Can't wait to see the disbelief of some.
yeah... my LS3 is gonna accidentally get bored .030 over from the factory... what a freak!
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2009, 06:22 PM   #18
Xanthos
Almost-Original Postwhore
 
Xanthos's Avatar
 
Drives: Stick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 12,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
yeah... my LS3 is gonna accidentally get bored .030 over from the factory... what a freak!
Can I get my LLT thrown into the same batch as Zebra's LS3?
- Xanthos
__________________

Last edited by Xanthos; 03-19-2009 at 01:39 AM.
Xanthos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2009, 06:24 PM   #19
CamaroSpike23
Mr. Nitpicky
 
CamaroSpike23's Avatar
 
Drives: anything I can get my hands on
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: anywhere and everywhere
Posts: 22,860
Send a message via Yahoo to CamaroSpike23
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
Can I get my LLT throw into the same batch as Zebra's LS3?
- Xanthos
give it to me for a month....
__________________
Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogwinters View Post
Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelmanSS View Post
Post count is truly an accurate measure of how cool someone is on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Norris View Post
I piss excellence
and fart awesomeness
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.
"You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
But not all people were born awesome like you, Spike.
CamaroSpike23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 11:40 PM   #20
Riderover40
 
Riderover40's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 ABM Camaro 2SS LS3 w/RS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
i just found a really good explanation of the relationship between the two and which really wins races.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-ls...hp-torque.html


that page also has a link to a 1/4 mile time estimator (it puts the 5th gen LS3 @ 12.9)

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/qua...it=Get+Results
And Chev has tagged the LS3 at 12.9 and the L99 at 13.2
__________________
Roto Fab CAI, Magnacharger MP2300, Kooks HO SS 1-7/8" LT's, Kook's Catted Connectors, Corsa SS Dual Rear Exit Cat-Back for A6 with Lasered Livernois Signature 4" Dual Wall Exit Pipes, Barton Short Throw. 546 RWHP 517 RWT

This Car Rocks !! "Bring It On" GT-500
Riderover40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 09:00 AM   #21
Rock36
I just like V8s
 
Rock36's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Corvette Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 919
PLEASE READ THIS TOO

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

This is one of the best explanations I have ever read. It goes through some math, but it also has narrative explanations and examples, both real world and hypothetical.


The other reason why I like this is that it explains something that people always seem to forget about: GEARING and RPM REDLINES!!!! Those are so important too. This article compares two Corvettes (the LT1 vette and the preceding L98) two vette that are very similar except one makes more power over a broader range eventhough they have the same peak torque.

I'd almost recommend making that link or something like it a sticky....this is a must read IMHO
__________________
"Anyone know who sells the driver mods?"

2007 Corvette Z06: Le Mans blue, 2LZ


Last edited by Rock36; 05-04-2009 at 09:14 AM.
Rock36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 09:10 AM   #22
Rock36
I just like V8s
 
Rock36's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Corvette Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
That one is really good too
__________________
"Anyone know who sells the driver mods?"

2007 Corvette Z06: Le Mans blue, 2LZ

Rock36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 10:20 AM   #23
2SSJIM

 
2SSJIM's Avatar
 
Drives: CRT ZL1 #1400
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: AZ.
Posts: 908
Interesting articles! One question though, should you plug in the actual RWHP number of 364?
2SSJIM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 11:41 AM   #24
CamaroSpike23
Mr. Nitpicky
 
CamaroSpike23's Avatar
 
Drives: anything I can get my hands on
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: anywhere and everywhere
Posts: 22,860
Send a message via Yahoo to CamaroSpike23
horsepower sells cars, torque wins races.

horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you take with you.
__________________
Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogwinters View Post
Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelmanSS View Post
Post count is truly an accurate measure of how cool someone is on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Norris View Post
I piss excellence
and fart awesomeness
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.
"You can think I'm wrong, but that's no reason to quit thinking.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overflow View Post
But not all people were born awesome like you, Spike.
CamaroSpike23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 11:54 AM   #25
InfernoFlame
SUPRMNN
 
InfernoFlame's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS/RS IOM/IOM
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sioux City, IA
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
horsepower sells cars, torque wins races.

horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much of the wall you take with you.
InfernoFlame is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
1/4 mile, horsepower, torque

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
BMEP-Or why you only need 1 camshaft rayhawk Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 25 12-03-2008 01:28 AM
Challys 6-Speed Tranny only capable of 450 ft. lbs torque, what about the Camaro? Muscle Master General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 9 10-18-2008 02:28 AM
Making Modern Horsepower the Old-Fashioned Way KILLER74Z28 General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 14 02-02-2007 02:50 PM
GM Attempting to keep Camaro Buzz alive for 2 years rray200 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 32 02-01-2007 05:44 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.