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Camaro V6 LLT Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 06-15-2011, 07:19 PM   #1
bmorecam
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E85 TUNE RESULT!!(UPDATED 8/9)

Post edited 6/20

The final result was 284/291HP(ASE corrected) and 244/250TQ(ASE corrected).

The e85 made 7.5% more power at peak vs gas. The rest I will leave it up to you guys to figure out. I dont want to stir up anything other than the result so I wont get into speculating what is the "total gain" in my opinion.

This is on a dynojet 248x which is known to read low with long tube header, no cats, and full exhaust. Still factory intake

UPDATE: AUG/9

I've done lots of changes since the first dyno result. Since then, I've got rid of the factory intake and added vararam intake, tuned out the vararm intake according to the new AFR and fuel trims, reworked on the timing from running 34* of total timing(dyno graph is with 34*)and dropped to more conservative timing at 25*. Have not had a chance to redyno the car and test the new timings but after carefully reviewing the recent torque based timing curve it def show that the car look to be the happiest around 26*, and the car feel alot stronger and faster. we moved the AFR back to 11:5 from 10's. Running richer just made the car smell like alcohol and went through the tank much quicker with no noticeable change in power at all. With all the change, I made a 1/4 mile run at the track and it def show overall improved gain with run time of 13.5@104. The calculation put me right around 320rwhp at the moment and possibly could be even more if I could have made better 60' but the best I could do with stock 20's was 2.1 At this time the only thing left to do is to get back on dyno and rework the timing based off what we know now
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Dynojet Research Inc.
Run NameYNO RUN FILES\E85 MINUS 2 02.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 6/19/2011
E85 MINUS 2

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.38 2.55 N/A N/A 13.17
0.63 2.70 124.76 242.69 12.61
0.89 2.85 131.76 242.82 12.67
1.15 3.00 139.48 244.18 12.77
1.40 3.15 145.54 242.67 12.90
1.67 3.30 150.95 240.24 12.97
1.92 3.45 157.66 240.01 12.93
2.18 3.60 164.26 239.64 12.96
2.43 3.75 171.77 240.58 12.98
2.70 3.90 179.39 241.58 12.98
2.96 4.05 184.26 238.95 12.96
3.22 4.20 188.75 236.04 12.96
3.49 4.35 194.83 235.24 12.92
3.75 4.50 202.44 236.27 12.88
4.02 4.65 210.21 237.42 12.87
4.28 4.80 217.21 237.67 12.87
4.55 4.95 222.56 236.14 12.84
4.82 5.10 229.90 236.76 12.78
5.08 5.25 238.34 238.44 12.78
5.35 5.40 244.32 237.63 12.69
5.61 5.55 251.29 237.80 12.65
5.87 5.70 257.11 236.91 12.65
6.15 5.85 262.14 235.35 12.65
6.43 6.00 264.96 231.93 12.64
6.69 6.15 270.93 231.37 12.68
6.97 6.30 276.32 230.36 12.67
7.26 6.45 279.25 227.39 12.62
7.54 6.60 281.23 223.79 12.46
7.84 6.75 282.69 219.96 12.44
8.14 6.90 282.49 215.03 12.38
8.45 7.05 281.84 209.96 12.39
8.78 7.20 277.86 202.69 12.35
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 8.78 7.20 282.69 244.18 13.17
MIN: 0.38 2.55 124.76 202.69 12.35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dynojet Research Inc.
Run Name: TRIFECTA GAS TUNE01.drf
Run Title:
Run Notes:
Run Date: 6/19/2011 2:25:39 AM
TRIFECTA GAS TUNE01.drf:

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.76 2.10 93.71 234.37 13.24
1.26 2.25 100.52 234.63 12.96
1.77 2.40 105.73 231.39 12.82
2.28 2.55 111.19 229.01 12.70
2.80 2.70 120.28 233.97 12.72
3.31 2.85 126.78 233.63 12.78
3.82 3.00 133.34 233.43 12.69
4.34 3.15 139.29 232.24 12.49
4.83 3.30 146.59 233.31 12.53
5.33 3.45 155.29 236.41 12.44
5.85 3.60 162.10 236.49 12.47
6.35 3.75 171.76 240.56 12.50
6.84 3.90 176.74 238.02 12.51
7.36 4.05 182.24 236.34 12.50
7.87 4.20 186.03 232.63 12.49
8.39 4.35 191.40 231.09 12.47
8.92 4.50 197.97 231.06 12.43
9.44 4.65 201.65 227.77 12.44
9.98 4.80 207.07 226.57 12.42
10.52 4.95 214.63 227.73 12.45
11.05 5.10 223.28 229.94 12.40
11.58 5.25 230.69 230.78 12.40
12.11 5.40 237.42 230.92 12.44
12.65 5.55 244.33 231.22 12.42
13.19 5.70 246.63 227.25 12.37
13.74 5.85 251.29 225.61 12.27
14.25 6.00 254.29 222.60 12.28
14.87 6.15 255.69 218.36 12.27
15.43 6.30 258.06 215.13 12.28
16.03 6.45 258.53 210.51 12.26
16.63 6.60 261.87 208.39 12.24
17.23 6.75 262.44 204.20 12.23
17.88 6.90 260.36 198.18 12.20
18.51 7.05 259.97 193.68 12.18
19.21 7.20 254.21 185.43 12.07
19.89 7.35 249.62 178.37 N/A
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 19.89 7.35 262.44 240.56 13.24
MIN: 0.76 2.10 93.71 178.37 12.07

Last edited by bmorecam; 08-09-2011 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:31 PM   #2
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I'm a little shocked by the torque, it should have gone up more than that. 13 sounds too lean to me, too. Since that looks like it was down low, then I'm wondering if he's over compensated to make sure he doesn't run out of fuel up high. Don't know!
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:36 PM   #3
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Was hoping for the big 300.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
I'm a little shocked by the torque, it should have gone up more than that. 13 sounds too lean to me, too. Since that looks like it was down low, then I'm wondering if he's over compensated to make sure he doesn't run out of fuel up high. Don't know!
I have alot to talk to him about once he get back.. I think optimal AF in gas term should be high 11's to low 12, but if you look at the tq number from 2k rpm, you will see that the useable tq have went up. The overall useable rpm power look alot better with the e85 no question about it.

Also, remember that this dyno read lower than others. According to the owner I could have easily seen HP number up in the 290's++

Once I get the VR installed I will post up some 1/4 mile times. The trap speed should defenitely tell me how much power I am really pushing
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:57 PM   #5
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Don't sweat it man!! You've done more than your fair share for the V6 community.

284 HP on a dyno which typically reads lower than some others...call me impressed! I am a bit suprised on the TQ, as I was almost thinking that might be the big gain since you seemed to feel it so much in your "butt dyno"..but hey who knows what happened.

Did the car still feel strong as ever on your drives today? If you datalogged your dyno runs, then I'm bettin there are some tweaks to be made.

Just wait until you get that Vararam and have it on for awhile and allow your ECU to adjust itself to that...then tweak your tune again, and you should be looking at an easy mid to upper 290s...and again on a dyno that supposedly reads a bit lower than some.

The 300 number is not lost yet!
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:57 PM   #6
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good work. i'm sure you were expecting a lot more out of it, but at least we got some info out of this. i'm sure vince can still do some more tweaking and find some more. thanks for being the guinea pig!
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:19 PM   #7
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Not bad on the power. I expected more torque gains than power though. Does look a little lean to me.

I'm a little confused though. You didn't dyno today with the gas tune did you?
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
I have alot to talk to him about once he get back.. I think optimal AF in gas term should be high 11's to low 12, but if you look at the tq number from 2k rpm, you will see that the useable tq have went up. The overall useable rpm power look alot better with the e85 no question about it.

Also, remember that this dyno read lower than others. According to the owner I could have easily seen HP number up in the 290's++

Once I get the VR installed I will post up some 1/4 mile times. The trap speed should defenitely tell me how much power I am really pushing
I'm more concentrating on the difference than the absolute numbers. I'm a little tired so I should probably look at this tomorrow. Overall looks good and I think you are well on your way to getting to 300 WHP.
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647 RWHP & 726 RWTQ @18.5 psi on 93 Octane (locked converter)
1/8 mile -- 7.158 @ 102.10 (20psi); old build
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:37 PM   #9
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I guess it all depend on how seriously you take dyno numbers. If I would have dynoed on a dyno that read 250-265 stock numbers than what number do you guys think I would have come out with? Probably 290+ and maybe even 300.
Unfortunately, I've used low reading dyno that dyno stock cars anywhere from 230-245. Also, if we would have checked off smooth to anything other than raw data at zero, I would have got 4-5 more ponies.

Another thing you have to look at is the peak numbers. Nobody drive their car at over 6000 rpm. The number I posted is the highest number at the highest rpm band. The reason why I feel so much power in the lower rpm is because of change in peak tq. The peak tq is now at 3000 rpm and damn near start at 2000 rpm. This is due to change in valve timing.

Hopefully some of you can now get a better understanding with looking at the dyno
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:49 PM   #10
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look at the tq only starting at 2600k rpm!! stock cars are like in the 190-200 ish starting at 2600rpm??

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.47 2.60 120.04 242.48 12.81
0.64 2.70 124.79 242.75 12.61
0.81 2.80 129.55 243.01 12.63
0.97 2.90 134.08 242.82 12.71
1.15 3.00 139.48 244.20 12.77
1.32 3.10 143.67 243.41 12.85
1.49 3.20 147.54 242.16 12.95
1.67 3.30 150.96 240.26 12.97
1.83 3.40 154.96 239.37 12.95
2.01 3.50 159.97 240.05 12.93
2.18 3.60 164.28 239.67 12.96
2.36 3.70 169.59 240.73 12.98
2.53 3.80 175.17 242.11 12.98
2.70 3.90 179.39 241.59 12.98
2.87 4.00 182.80 240.02 12.96
3.05 4.10 186.03 238.31 12.95
3.22 4.20 188.73 236.01 12.96
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:52 PM   #11
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I'm a bit dissapointed in the results. Was hoping for a larger gain. I'll keep an eye out on your progress though. good luck. I may switch mine as well, if the gains get better, and as soon as i get my nitrous worked out.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:00 PM   #12
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Yeah it is also summer probably not going to get ultimate numbers. Still pretty good. I might have won the award for closest guess after all. lol I am sure you are feeling that lower end torque which your butt dyno probably loves and I am sure makes the car much more fun to drive. Thanks for all you are doing. Many will benefit I am sure.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:14 PM   #13
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Looks completley normal. Torque is huge increase, that motor just peaks early, so it's misleading. 3-4% is all E85 is worth over gasoline, and that's about what you're seeing.

The car is super lean, though. Like, oh my god it's going to blow up lean. Get that fixed. You're WAY out of the ballpark. The reason your timing is ****ed up (yes, -2 retard is WAY ****ed up) is because you don't have enough fuel. Add a shitload of fuel, and add timing with it, and your engine will not only run safer, your power will increase.


PS: Get a tuner who has a clue about ethanol.

Last edited by DietCoke; 06-16-2011 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:32 PM   #14
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PS: Get a tuner who has a clue about ethanol.
You sir have no clue
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
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look at the tq only starting at 2600k rpm!! stock cars are like in the 190-200 ish starting at 2600rpm??

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.47 2.60 120.04 242.48 12.81 -- NICE GAIN FROM HERE
0.64 2.70 124.79 242.75 12.61
0.81 2.80 129.55 243.01 12.63
0.97 2.90 134.08 242.82 12.71
1.15 3.00 139.48 244.20 12.77
1.32 3.10 143.67 243.41 12.85
1.49 3.20 147.54 242.16 12.95
1.67 3.30 150.96 240.26 12.97
1.83 3.40 154.96 239.37 12.95
2.01 3.50 159.97 240.05 12.93
2.18 3.60 164.28 239.67 12.96 -- TO HERE Very
2.36 3.70 169.59 240.73 12.98
2.53 3.80 175.17 242.11 12.98
2.70 3.90 179.39 241.59 12.98
2.87 4.00 182.80 240.02 12.96
3.05 4.10 186.03 238.31 12.95
3.22 4.20 188.73 236.01 12.96
No doubt your TQ peaked earlier and it was a very nice gain. So maybe I'm confused, but was the first set of data with Vince's new tune for 93 octane with the cam phasing or was it from the older tune without? I was assuming it was before the cam phasing and if it is, I wonder if those low rpm torque gains are the result of that more than the e85. Either way, they are very nice gains and you probably have the most powerful NA LLT out there. Good job! Overall I give this a . Now get back and it and win me some popcorn!
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647 RWHP & 726 RWTQ @18.5 psi on 93 Octane (locked converter)
1/8 mile -- 7.158 @ 102.10 (20psi); old build
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Looks completley normal. Torque is huge increase, that motor just peaks early, so it's misleading. 3-4% is all E85 is worth over gasoline, and that's about what you're seeing.

The car is super lean, though. Like, oh my god it's going to blow up lean. Get that fixed. Most E85 cars are happy around 10.5 or 11:1. Rarely one will make better power close to 12:1, but you're WAY out of the ballpark. The reason your timing is ****ed up (yes, -2 retard is WAY ****ed up) is because you don't have enough fuel. Add a shitload of fuel, and add timing with it, and your engine will not only run safer, your power will increase.


PS: Get a tuner who has a clue about ethanol.
Your comment is very interesting. One thing I dont agree with you is the timing. Some cars like timing and some dont. E85 has faster flame rate than gasoline so theres no need to start the burn early by advancing. I know plenty of cars that want less timing, sometimes as much as -7 retard on e85.

The tune I first went in with was actually bumped up to +9* and showed a very good AF around low 12's to 11's, but made less power. I don't know about 10's. That is waaaay too rich, but is something I will bring up once our tuner get back from vacation.

Unfortunately, we only have one tuner. Check this dyno run out tho..
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:55 PM   #17
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Agreed...that low end TQ looks very sweet, your a good 30 or more TQ higher than stock or lightly modded LLTs at that range....so hey the E85 project was no faiilure thats forsure.

I also agree, you probably do have the most powerful N/A LLT at the moment....at least from what I've seen here on Camaro5.

Congrats my man! lol
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:02 PM   #18
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Hey, one more thing. Do you have the WinPep software and the run files? If so, change the correction to SAE and see what it looks like.
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647 RWHP & 726 RWTQ @18.5 psi on 93 Octane (locked converter)
1/8 mile -- 7.158 @ 102.10 (20psi); old build
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:23 PM   #19
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No doubt your TQ peaked earlier and it was a very nice gain. So maybe I'm confused, but was the first set of data with Vince's new tune for 93 octane with the cam phasing or was it from the older tune without? I was assuming it was before the cam phasing and if it is, I wonder if those low rpm torque gains are the result of that more than the e85. Either way, they are very nice gains and you probably have the most powerful NA LLT out there. Good job! Overall I give this a . Now get back and it and win me some popcorn!
The 1st dyno was with vince's newest tune with cam phasing, and my long tube with no cats, and full exhaust. Yes.. the dyno read very very low for all those mods only showing 264 to the wheels, and I got all my dyno print out today too.
Even the owner of the shop told me that their dyno read lower from day one. They have the fastest lexus in the world and are used to dynoing 1000hp turbo cars all day! so with their 2000hp rated dyno it will usually read lower than the smaller dynojet.
Imagine if I would have dynoed on a dyno that stock cars see the sometimes 250-260 numbers, I would of had or would probably hit very very close to 300rwhp. So even tho the gain was only about 20hp, the total gain is very solid.

The early peak come from additional valve timing that vince tweaked just for this e85 tune, but I think the outcome is very different than what we intended. One thing for sure is that it defenitely pushed all of its tq to a very low RPM band. Which is something our LLT can defenitely use.

If I would of had anything other than this crappy stock intake today.. I think even with the low reading dyno I probably would of been at or very close to 300.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:25 PM   #20
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I really wonder how much the stock intake is limiting the gains here? The gains shown are great but how much better would they be with an Injen or Vararam intake installed. The mods you've done so far allow the exhaust side of the engine to breathe better but how much restriction is there in getting air into the engine?

The gains so far look great. Can't wait to see how things go once you can ditch that stock intake....
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:30 PM   #21
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Nice gains the more you mod the more gains you'll see from e85
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:31 PM   #22
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I forgot to thank you gretchen.. I never knew that I can download the run file and use it in my own living room. When I do SAE correction every number get lower to about 5-6. Is that about right?

Prenger, if we are talking about all motor, than I dont mind taking the most powerful LLT all motor class title.

after I put on the vararam, maybe I should take my car to a dyno that I know it will read stock cars in the 250-260 range so I can make "some" peoples happy with 300+ rwhp
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:34 PM   #23
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Any gain over 93 oct is a gain
A gain In Hp is a gain in hp
Nobody can really argue if it would b worth it or not it still makes more hp on e85 then 93
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Trifecta e85 tune 331whp 400wtq :-D
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:37 PM   #24
bmorecam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolnslo View Post
I really wonder how much the stock intake is limiting the gains here? The gains shown are great but how much better would they be with an Injen or Vararam intake installed. The mods you've done so far allow the exhaust side of the engine to breathe better but how much restriction is there in getting air into the engine?

The gains so far look great. Can't wait to see how things go once you can ditch that stock intake....
Depends on how much the particular intake put down initially. For instance, if I dyno extra 20 rwhp with VR than it will probably be about 10 +extra with my mods. Can't remember how much percentage it loses, but I think its about right. The main thing with the stock intake is the heatsoak. It will easily get up to 130+ IAT by just sitting when I was on the dyno today, the stock IAT was like 120, and didnt even bother to look at it after I seen those numbers. Its nothing new with stock intake.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:45 PM   #25
bmorecam
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GXP, now I know why I was feeling the rush in the lower rpm's..all the damn torque is between 2k and 3+kI guess my butt dyno was not wrong, it was just in the better place
Another thing I want to add is that by doing the pulls between 3rd and 4th there are about 8 extra tq and 5hp difference. The 3rd gear pull show a difference of 20+ tq extra across the lower rpm with e85 with e85.

So there's defenitely a much bigger gain in 3rd gear vs 4th.
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