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Old 06-18-2011, 12:14 AM   #101
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It's the same platform, it's not the same body style.

And I agree with AUS10, I like the 2010+ a LOT more than the 05-09, and the 2010+ Shelby styling even moreso.
Near as I can tell, the doors are the same, the fenders are the same, the roof is the same ... sure the fascia & hood are different but the actual body of the car looks the same to me.
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:33 AM   #102
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Only thing thats same is the roof.. Everything else is different. Might look the same but it isnt..
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Old 06-18-2011, 01:09 AM   #103
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Only thing thats same is the roof.. Everything else is different. Might look the same but it isnt..
I always thought too that pretty much every body panel on the car was new (well with exception being the roof).

In many ways this is much like how the C6 was stated by some to be a C5.5 instead of a C6.

I think the main reason though why the Corvette got away with this and the Mustang didn't is because the Corvette lacks a true competitor. Yes it some what competes with other models but nothing to compare to head on.

I do think that what it comes down to is the Camaro just has a much more modern feel to it. Which is likely pulling in buyers who would otherwise not look at either the Camaro or the Mustang.

I think that the Dodge Challengers biggest sales issue (though I don't think they intended it to compete directly) is that it really only appeals to a small niche market.

I guess the real lesson here is how important exterior styling really is when it comes to sales, both cars are good cars and yet the sales gap has increased to over 10,000 units and that is with cash on the hood of the Mustang. If that cash wasn't there one would have to ask themselves what difference that would also have made for the Mustang.

I bet that exterior styling is number one for the next generation Mustang.
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Old 06-18-2011, 02:41 AM   #104
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To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.
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Old 06-18-2011, 04:36 AM   #105
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To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.
i would't call it a such, but 4 cylinders will definitely help.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:32 AM   #106
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To be 100% truthful, neither of the pony cars sales are very good. This is the downfall of the entire pony car market and the only thing that will save them is a 4 cylinder option. This sales of the S197 are not going to get any better, Ford will sustain sales as much as possible in 2013 but don't expect a huge increase. Challenger and Camaro sales will begin to fall (Challenger has never really been that good) and since they are the newest models, they will suffer the most. Whether your selling 6000 or 9000, both those numbers are almost at the point of extinction... This was my point before, all three are kinda fighting over scraps. The last one to an Eco4 is a rotten egg...

As for Mazda moving out, this makes enough room to make right hand drive Mustang's if you ask me... I don't know how Ford could pull that off without a separate line.
I would have to disagree with you on this one, considering that the Camaro sold more then 10,000 units in a month two months ago.

The entire auto market is down, when the Mustang was selling 150,000+ a year the auto market was at 18,000,000+/-. So while the auto market is at 12,000,000 (down 33%) and yes not every segment has been hit the same. Still the Camaro has been averaging 8,000-9,000 units per month which at the current rate would equate to 108,000 units a year. Not to mention to expand over that point they would have to expand the Camaro line.

I also have to completely disagree with the notion that a I-4 turbo is needed to save this market segment. In a sporty vehicle a I-4 turbo I don't see improving the fuel economy of these cars by much anyways maybe 1-2MPG on the highway.

A sporty 2+2 is a personal stylish vehicle and that is what they need to focus on in order to survive. The fact that the V-6 Mustang and V-6 Camaro get better fuel economy then the FWD V-6 Accord coupe and V-6 Altima coupe shouldn't be ignored.

We have to remember that being American you do have a certain % of the market that won't even look at them. They really should focus on that group of individuals to bring them back into the domestic market. Then who would want a non sporty sporty personal stylish car like a Accord coupe and Nissan Altima coupe. Who wants to spend more money and get a slower car that gets lower fuel economy?
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:38 AM   #107
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I would have to disagree with you on this one, considering that the Camaro sold more then 10,000 units in a month two months ago.

The entire auto market is down, when the Mustang was selling 150,000+ a year the auto market was at 18,000,000+/-. So while the auto market is at 12,000,000 (down 33%) and yes not every segment has been hit the same. Still the Camaro has been averaging 8,000-9,000 units per month which at the current rate would equate to 108,000 units a year. Not to mention to expand over that point they would have to expand the Camaro line.

I also have to completely disagree with the notion that a I-4 turbo is needed to save this market segment. In a sporty vehicle a I-4 turbo I don't see improving the fuel economy of these cars by much anyways maybe 1-2MPG on the highway.

A sporty 2+2 is a personal stylish vehicle and that is what they need to focus on in order to survive. The fact that the V-6 Mustang and V-6 Camaro get better fuel economy then the FWD V-6 Accord coupe and V-6 Altima coupe shouldn't be ignored.

We have to remember that being American you do have a certain % of the market that won't even look at them. They really should focus on that group of individuals to bring them back into the domestic market. Then who would want a non sporty sporty personal stylish car like a Accord coupe and Nissan Altima coupe. Who wants to spend more money and get a slower car that gets lower fuel economy?
Good points, and I hope it holds up. If you look at all three throughout the year, there is a terrible slump right after summer until spring the following year. The Camaro was leading at the end of last year with 5000-6000 units a month and that is pretty bad. The 4 cylinder will help dramatically but hopefully it comes pretty quick, the Mustang and Challenger have played every card they have and GM just laid down their last ace with the convertible (the ZL1 won't do anything to the sales numbers). Hopefully, with the reinvention of the pony car in 2014, the sales will take a turn for the better. As the sales stand today though and seeing that the Camaro is only 2 years into this generation, 9000 sales a month is alarming. If GM has plans to carry the 5th Gen on for another 5 years, sales will be at the Challengers level if not worse. Ford took advantage of the open market and really played this generation out, I doubt Ford's profit margin was as high as the Challenger's but since Ford is getting 10 years out of this Mustang, they probably have paid for the next gen in full. I wonder what is on the table for the next Challenger, I haven't heard anything yet...

The Camaro's prime was its first year, if it was available for a full 12 months it would have beat the 2nd years 90k. With the 4000-6000 units fall and winter, the sales will never be as high as it was during year one. It just doesn't work that way, never has and never will. The real test will be MY13, this is where the sales will take a big hit as it was with the Mustang and the Chally. By the 4th model year, sales will be cut because everyone who wanted one, has one...

Turbo 4's will be very successful overseas and I am glad that Mazda is leaving Flatrock because there is no way Ford can built a right hand drive Mustang on a left hand drive assembly line. Ford went to 1 shift in 2009 on the Mustang side but in its prime was capable of 18,000 units a month. With the demand in Australia alone, it will be impossible to meet demand...
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:11 PM   #108
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This body style was absolutely hideous...
Attachment 254211

This body style is a million times better, and I like it...
Attachment 254212

Like most say, the front end looks good, but the rest of the car doesn't have much going for it. I can stand back and look at my car, and our 5th Gens have so many good body lines all through out! The Mustang cannot touch that...
To each his/her own...





Loved the look of my '05 S197... even considered replacing it w/ an '11 after some girl textin' while driving wrecked it
The main thing I didn't like about the '11 were the candy cane tail lights...

Considering the trouble Ford had delivering my car, it's no surprise to me they're having trouble selling cars.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:58 PM   #109
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Good points, and I hope it holds up. If you look at all three throughout the year, there is a terrible slump right after summer until spring the following year. The Camaro was leading at the end of last year with 5000-6000 units a month and that is pretty bad. The 4 cylinder will help dramatically but hopefully it comes pretty quick, the Mustang and Challenger have played every card they have and GM just laid down their last ace with the convertible (the ZL1 won't do anything to the sales numbers). Hopefully, with the reinvention of the pony car in 2014, the sales will take a turn for the better. As the sales stand today though and seeing that the Camaro is only 2 years into this generation, 9000 sales a month is alarming. If GM has plans to carry the 5th Gen on for another 5 years, sales will be at the Challengers level if not worse. Ford took advantage of the open market and really played this generation out, I doubt Ford's profit margin was as high as the Challenger's but since Ford is getting 10 years out of this Mustang, they probably have paid for the next gen in full. I wonder what is on the table for the next Challenger, I haven't heard anything yet...

The Camaro's prime was its first year, if it was available for a full 12 months it would have beat the 2nd years 90k. With the 4000-6000 units fall and winter, the sales will never be as high as it was during year one. It just doesn't work that way, never has and never will. The real test will be MY13, this is where the sales will take a big hit as it was with the Mustang and the Chally. By the 4th model year, sales will be cut because everyone who wanted one, has one...

Turbo 4's will be very successful overseas and I am glad that Mazda is leaving Flatrock because there is no way Ford can built a right hand drive Mustang on a left hand drive assembly line. Ford went to 1 shift in 2009 on the Mustang side but in its prime was capable of 18,000 units a month. With the demand in Australia alone, it will be impossible to meet demand...
Some market segments are more seasonal as in they sell differently during different times of the year. You won't sell too many of these cars in snow areas during winter for obvious reasons.

Though I do agree that I-4 engines would do really well in over seas markets especially markets which tax based on engine sizes. In those markets a 300BHP small displacement I-4 engine might sell better then a 300BHP NA V-6 engine due to a lower price (because of the tax). Right hand driver is a factor as well as tuning, both cars should have a more sporty suspension tune in Europe then in the US. Where as the average American consumer would want a more comfortable ride (even in a sporty car) European consumers tend to like things a bit more sporty. Maybe make the track pack standard on Mustangs sold in Europe for example.
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:06 PM   #110
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To each his/her own...





Loved the look of my '05 S197... even considered replacing it w/ an '11 after some girl textin' while driving wrecked it
The main thing I didn't like about the '11 were the candy cane tail lights...

Considering the trouble Ford had delivering my car, it's no surprise to me they're having trouble selling cars.
It just always bothered me when they went to that body style that it was so flat and had no lines to follow. If you took off the curve of the roof, the car was just like a rectangle.

My favorite was my friends 1999 Saleen S351, that was a bad ass car.

I'm just glad to see that the new body style or whatever people wanna call it does have a little better shape and sportier look.

At the end of they day I don't wanna see anyone struggle with sells. I'm glad to see everyone pushing the limits with these cars again.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:21 AM   #111
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First off, the Camaro is selling very well. What defines very well isn't a number that we as customers view, but what was planned for to establish the business case and success of the program. In the case of the Camaro, it is selling very well even after a long 2010 run and 2011. With 2012, the Camaro will add significant improvements and the ZL1 that should maintain those volumes.

Ford? I don't know what they wanted to be selling. They've put money into the car to keep it fresh and added new powertrains, but those engines are available in other models including the Full Size Pickup (the biggest reason Ford is doing so well, btw). Maybe they are a bit low in their own volumes.

The problem here is that it is difficult to keep a plant running efficiently on 80 to 100,000 units unless you made the plant that small in the first place.

The Corvette does just fine in Bowling Green Kentucky, for example, on very low volumes.

The Camaro has an advantage of being built in Oshawa where there are also other products being built. Check out the pictures from the even last weekend..............there are Buick Regals in some of the photos.

So Ford simply has to either A) put a new product in Flat Rock to replace the Mazda 6, or B) move the Mustang to another plant where they have space.

I'm betting the Mustang is at least mildly profitable for Ford. The only problem is they can't justify that huge plant on one car.

Me, as a Michigander, hope that Ford simply adds another product to the mix in Flat Rock.

But as I've suggested in other posts, if Ford is doing an all NEW Mustang in 2014 or so wth a new underbody and chassis, they would have to have plans for a sedan or something to share that expense. A RWD Lincoln perhaps? I don't know. And if that is the case, maybe Ford wanted Mazda to leave.

So this nothing to worry about for Ford, just maybe the workers at Flat Rock. And generally they will have transfer rights to other Ford facilities if they choose to not keep it open.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:09 AM   #112
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And what about 2014 Mustamaro LOL
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:15 PM   #113
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I don't want misfortune on a company as strong as Ford. I love the Mustangs as well. I respect what Ford has done and their business approach. I love my Camaro though.
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:31 PM   #114
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I don't want misfortune on a company as strong as Ford. I love the Mustangs as well. I respect what Ford has done and their business approach. I love my Camaro though.

I love Camaros, so much so that I don't think I would ever buy a Mustang. But 'Stangs are still bad ass cars IMO. I'd own a Mustang before I'd own a Porsche....I couldn't care less about speed.

I hope all 3 pony cars, Camaros, Mustangs and Challengers sell well. They're all bad ass cars.
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:31 PM   #115
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Ford? I don't know what they wanted to be selling. They've put money into the car to keep it fresh and added new powertrains, but those engines are available in other models including the Full Size Pickup (the biggest reason Ford is doing so well, btw). Maybe they are a bit low in their own volumes.
The 5.0 in the truck is not the same motor. It is based on the Mustang's motor but has a beefed up truck specific block and heads and a lower compression ratio so it would withstand truck use, this is from what I saw on Motorweek the other day. If i recall correctly from the show, It produces around 360 HP and 380 Lb ft of torque. Not as much as the Mustang does.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:04 PM   #116
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I love Camaros, so much so that I don't think I would ever buy a Mustang. But 'Stangs are still bad ass cars IMO. I'd own a Mustang before I'd own a Porsche....I couldn't care less about speed.

I hope all 3 pony cars, Camaros, Mustangs and Challengers sell well. They're all bad ass cars.

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Old 06-19-2011, 08:00 PM   #117
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The 5.0 in the truck is not the same motor. It is based on the Mustang's motor but has a beefed up truck specific block and heads and a lower compression ratio so it would withstand truck use, this is from what I saw on Motorweek the other day. If i recall correctly from the show, It produces around 360 HP and 380 Lb ft of torque. Not as much as the Mustang does.
Isn't that like saying the 6.2 L in the Escalade isn't the same motor as what's in the Camaro. Or that the 6.2 L L99 isn't the same motor as the 6.2 L LS3?

Families of engines mean HUGE cost savings and shared development time. GM has several 6.2 L V8s that aren't quite the same as well but share a lot of the same fundamentals.

So my point was only that they didn't invest in the 5.0 to simply put it in 30,000 Mustangs. It has broader applications, even if some of them involve different cams or heads. I didn't mean to imply it was exactly the same as engine in the Mustang and the Pickup. Sorry.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:47 AM   #118
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Having worked for a large production plant I am very familiar with what it takes too keep a large plant running and maintain a profit margin on the product produced there. Ford has taken a major hit by Mazda pulling out and going to Mexico and building a new plant there. Now back too the Ford plant having only one shift working is bad news as it takes lots of energy to keep robots and other systems running 24/7 along with things that need too be cooled and other things heated,plus some of the air compressors need to run and so for 16 hours the plant is using a very large amount of energy! This is a loss that can not be sustained over time,more money spent than profit coming in. Mustang is doomed if sales remain at current levels,but Ford may keep the plant running with the hope that sales will pickup with some new Mustang options.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:11 AM   #119
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Having worked for a large production plant I am very familiar with what it takes too keep a large plant running and maintain a profit margin on the product produced there. Ford has taken a major hit by Mazda pulling out and going to Mexico and building a new plant there. Now back too the Ford plant having only one shift working is bad news as it takes lots of energy to keep robots and other systems running 24/7 along with things that need too be cooled and other things heated,plus some of the air compressors need to run and so for 16 hours the plant is using a very large amount of energy! This is a loss that can not be sustained over time,more money spent than profit coming in. Mustang is doomed if sales remain at current levels,but Ford may keep the plant running with the hope that sales will pickup with some new Mustang options.
The S197 will not see an increase in sales over the next two years. The lowest Ford can go is about 45k before they start losing money. As I said before, Flatrock Mustangs have been one shift since 2008, as long as they sustain a 70k sales pace (and those are GTs) they are good to go. Ford may have needed Mazda to leave, if you look at the reports Mazda announced that they were leaving and then a few days later Ford announced a RHD Mustang.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:21 AM   #120
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The S197 will not see an increase in sales over the next two years. The lowest Ford can go is about 45k before they start losing money. As I said before, Flatrock Mustangs have been one shift since 2008, as long as they sustain a 70k sales pace (and those are GTs) they are good to go. Ford may have needed Mazda to leave, if you look at the reports Mazda announced that they were leaving and then a few days later Ford announced a RHD Mustang.
Its also possible that Mazda leaving the plant has made Ford look at other markets to sell more Mustangs.

I still think that this is a great chance to produce a Lincoln on the Mustang platform, make a 4 and 2 door RWD model. This could be a surprise competitor to the up coming Cadillac ATS and the BMW 3 series/ Mercedes C class, and Audi A4. With the base engine being a 3.7L V-6 making 305BHP mated to either 6 speed auto or 6 speed manual gear boxes. And a optional performance version packing a 5.0L V-8 engine..........

They can call it the Lincoln MDK (murder death kill) model.

Even better this would be a vehicle with a starting price of $30,000 and a upper price limit of around $60,000 talk about profit per unit sold.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:59 AM   #121
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I also think the link to Transformers is a bit over stated. For me it was just a show case for one sweet looking car. It is a great advertising tool but only because people love the design of the vehicle so much.
Movies help car sales big time , look at the Smokey And Bandit Trans Am or the Knight Rider Trans Am . The Dealers were getting calls all the time wanting the Bandit Package , and even people asking for the KITT bumper (which GM never sold )

I think that The Transformer movie did help sales in a large way , from going to shows I know alot of owners that got a Camaro over another car because here kids wanted one . "And when my son gets my car , he wants to paint it like Bumblebee ".
The movie itself did 100X more impact then any single commercial or ad GM ran .

As for the Mustang sales ,almost everyone I know hates the new body style (10 & Up ) . I know a handful of guys who bought them used just to get the 05 to 09 body style . The only thing I like on the newer body style better is the door panels .( In my opinon anyway )

I think the body style change on the mustang hurt sales for Ford a fair bit , and help extra sales for the Camaro .
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:01 PM   #122
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Movies help car sales big time , look at the Smokey And Bandit Trans Am or the Knight Rider Trans Am . The Dealers were getting calls all the time wanting the Bandit Package , and even people asking for the KITT bumper (which GM never sold )

I think that The Transformer movie did help sales in a large way , from going to shows I know alot of owners that got a Camaro over another car because here kids wanted one . "And when my son gets my car , he wants to paint it like Bumblebee ".
The movie itself did 100X more impact then any single commercial.
I agree the transformers movies have a great impact on recognition of the Camaro and it's sales. Just about every time I am out in ours someone asks me if I can get him to transform (most of the time it's from the adults).
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Previous Camaros: 1974, 1979 and 2010.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:27 PM   #123
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I would never want the Stang to be discontinued (though I doubt it would in the foreseeable future). This decades long competition has pushed both Ford and Chevy to continually improve on their cars in order to "one up" the competition. I feel like if the Mustang ever went away, Chevy might become a little complacent with the Camaro. Sure there are other cars out the such as the Challenger, but the true rival to the Camaro will always be the Mustang.
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:58 PM   #124
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I wonder how Mustang enthusiasts felt in 2002? While the Mustang will never be discontinued, right now is a great time to be on the GM F-body side of this war. Let's face it, we have the hot, better, more popular product at the moment. Let's just bask for a minute................
Alright, let's start debating again!
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:11 PM   #125
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The 5.0 is selling great; ironically though, it's the V6 sales that keep the muscle car market alive. That's where the Camaro is making a killing right now. The enthusiasts buy up the hi-po versions within the first two years of a production runs, and after that it's mostly the secretary mobiles that are being sold.

Although it's cool that the Mustang has been around for so long, I think America is so saturated with V6 Mustangs that they just aren't going to sell as well as something that's only been around for a couple of years. Hell, I see far more 5th gen Camaros than I see 2010 Mustangs.

That being said, I really pride myself on saying my car was built in Michigan by a bunch of gravel-eating ****-mining Americans, and it'd be a damn shame for that plant to have to close down. C'mon, we can't let all American muscle get built in Canada!
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