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Old 03-16-2009, 06:36 PM   #1
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Let me get this straight....LS3 vs. L99 MPG

17/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with manual transmission
18/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with automatic transmission
16/24 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with manual transmission
16/25 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with automatic transmission



So you have a 426hp 6-spd manual tranny car getting 16/24 mpg
and an active fuel management 6-spd auto car with 26 less hp can only get 1 mpg better?!?!?!?

What's up with that? Guess I didn't realise how much at automatic tranny can rob fuel mileage....


Now let me ask this....How many mpg do you think it would get as an LS3 w/ 6-spd auto tranny (no AFM, just a 426hp LS3 like the manual tranny car uses slapped to the auto tran)?

Also I think it's a testament to how well the LS3 manual can do....It's not much of a trade off over a V6 to only lose 1city and 5 highway mpg and have 122 more hp.
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:39 PM   #2
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The automatic is to blame
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:48 PM   #3
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I'm guessing it would have been 23 highway - which gives it the gas guzzler tax I think.
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:16 PM   #4
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Doesn't the gearing of the automatic hurt its mpg too? I think the gearing in the A6 is geared more agressively (which means less mpg) in order to accelerate equal to the M6. This steep gearing is needed to overcome the power lost through the torque converter. The A6 could get better mpg with less aggressive gearing but then it would suffer in acceleration.
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:43 PM   #5
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Here's something else.....

Right off the 2009 Corvette pdf spec sheet.

Name:  Vette mpg.JPG
Views: 1837
Size:  15.1 KB

The Vette doesn't need AFM with the auto trans to make up the mpg difference. I figure it's better mpg on the highway compared to the SS is cause it weighs less. Guess I'm just curious why they needed to use AFM with the auto to get the necessary mpg on the Camaro...maybe just cause of the weight?
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:51 PM   #6
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Here's something else.....

Right off the 2009 Corvette pdf spec sheet.

Attachment 17638

The Vette doesn't need AFM with the auto trans to make up the mpg difference. I figure it's better mpg on the highway compared to the SS is cause it weighs less. Guess I'm just curious why they needed to use AFM with the auto to get the necessary mpg on the Camaro...maybe just cause of the weight?
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:16 PM   #7
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my 2007 ls2 m6 corvette regularly get 33 Highway MPG, at 65/70, I suspect that a l99 will get much better, I know the car is a bit heaver and less aerodynamic, however some Suv only have a 200 hp four and manage to get 25 Highway. Does anyone know if the test are will regular or premium? Will the ls3 come with Mobil 1 factory fill?
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:24 PM   #8
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Doesn't the gearing of the automatic hurt its mpg too? I think the gearing in the A6 is geared more agressively (which means less mpg) in order to accelerate equal to the M6. This steep gearing is needed to overcome the power lost through the torque converter. The A6 could get better mpg with less aggressive gearing but then it would suffer in acceleration.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by JMAN311 View Post
17/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with manual transmission
18/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with automatic transmission
16/24 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with manual transmission
16/25 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with automatic transmission



So you have a 426hp 6-spd manual tranny car getting 16/24 mpg
and an active fuel management 6-spd auto car with 26 less hp can only get 1 mpg better?!?!?!?

What's up with that? Guess I didn't realise how much at automatic tranny can rob fuel mileage....


Now let me ask this....How many mpg do you think it would get as an LS3 w/ 6-spd auto tranny (no AFM, just a 426hp LS3 like the manual tranny car uses slapped to the auto tran)?

Also I think it's a testament to how well the LS3 manual can do....It's not much of a trade off over a V6 to only lose 1city and 5 highway mpg and have 122 more hp.


You have to realize that even with AFM (which deactivates 4 cylinders in low-load situations), it only cuts fuel to those cylinders. Energy is still required to suck in a dry charge (no fuel, just air), compress it to 1/11th its original volume, let it expand, then blow it out the exhaust. It still takes quite a bit of energy to compress that dry charge. So some of the fuel that you save by not injecting it into the cylinders is used to compress the air in those dead cylinders. That's why you don't get much better mpg with it.

And the automatics have a taller (lower number) rear end than the manuals. 3.23 auto, 3.45 manual. This helps with mpg numbers.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
Doesn't the gearing of the automatic hurt its mpg too? I think the gearing in the A6 is geared more agressively (which means less mpg) in order to accelerate equal to the M6. This steep gearing is needed to overcome the power lost through the torque converter. The A6 could get better mpg with less aggressive gearing but then it would suffer in acceleration.
If it's just a matter of gearing difference between the A6 and M6, then why doesn't the gearing of the Vette's Auto/Manual matter? It's 1mpg difference between A6 and M6 without AFM....

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You have to realize that even with AFM (which deactivates 4 cylinders in low-load situations), it only cuts fuel to those cylinders. Energy is still required to suck in a dry charge (no fuel, just air), compress it to 1/11th its original volume, let it expand, then blow it out the exhaust. It still takes quite a bit of energy to compress that dry charge. So some of the fuel that you save by not injecting it into the cylinders is used to compress the air in those dead cylinders. That's why you don't get much better mpg with it.

And the automatics have a taller (lower number) rear end than the manuals. 3.23 auto, 3.45 manual. This helps with mpg numbers.
I thought the whole point of AFM was to use less fuel and be more efficient....shouldn't that equate into mpg? If what i put in bold is true why bother putting money into developing an AFM engine if it's not helping fuel economy?
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:00 PM   #11
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It is. If you'll notice the Corvette ratings, the automatic gets 1mpg LESS than the manual.

The Camaro's automatic gets 1 mpg MORE than the manual.

So overall, it's getting 2mpg better than the automatic in the Corvette.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:12 PM   #12
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I'd like to see GM give a motor choice with auto in the near future, I'll settle for a LS3 but LS7/LSA would be the hot lick
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JMAN311 View Post
17/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with manual transmission
18/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with automatic transmission
16/24 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with manual transmission
16/25 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with automatic transmission



So you have a 426hp 6-spd manual tranny car getting 16/24 mpg
and an active fuel management 6-spd auto car with 26 less hp can only get 1 mpg better?!?!?!?

What's up with that? Guess I didn't realise how much at automatic tranny can rob fuel mileage....


Now let me ask this....How many mpg do you think it would get as an LS3 w/ 6-spd auto tranny (no AFM, just a 426hp LS3 like the manual tranny car uses slapped to the auto tran)?

Also I think it's a testament to how well the LS3 manual can do....It's not much of a trade off over a V6 to only lose 1city and 5 highway mpg and have 122 more hp.
It really not that hard to figure out, I posted a thread about this long time ago. The ls3 in the corvette is rated at 26 on the highway. It is only common since that the camaro would almost have the same rating with the stick.
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Old 03-16-2009, 10:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68 View Post
It is. If you'll notice the Corvette ratings, the automatic gets 1mpg LESS than the manual.

The Camaro's automatic gets 1 mpg MORE than the manual.

So overall, it's getting 2mpg better than the automatic in the Corvette.

Right, but taking away 1/2 the cylinders at low rpm cruising speeds and 26hp seems like alot just to squeeze out a 2mpg difference. It must have put it in the gas guzzler tax range without the AFM like Kyle2K was thinking. There wouldn't have been any other reason to use it IMO.

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It really not that hard to figure out, I posted a thread about this long time ago. The ls3 in the corvette is rated at 26 on the highway. It is only common since that the camaro would almost have the same rating with the stick.
No it's not that hard to figure that the mpg between an LS3 Corvette manual would be close to the LS3 Camaro manual. But that's not what I'm talking about. The info I was talking about was the need for them using AFM at all on the auto in the Camaro.
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Old 03-17-2009, 02:29 AM   #15
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You have to realize that even with AFM (which deactivates 4 cylinders in low-load situations), it only cuts fuel to those cylinders. Energy is still required to suck in a dry charge (no fuel, just air), compress it to 1/11th its original volume, let it expand, then blow it out the exhaust. It still takes quite a bit of energy to compress that dry charge. So some of the fuel that you save by not injecting it into the cylinders is used to compress the air in those dead cylinders. That's why you don't get much better mpg with it.

And the automatics have a taller (lower number) rear end than the manuals. 3.23 auto, 3.45 manual. This helps with mpg numbers.
your wrong about how afm works, it closes off the valves after the power stroke and keeps the exhaust trapped in the cylinder to act as a air spring to push the piston back down so not that much energy is wasted(if any at low load). for example take a bike tire pump put your finger over the hole and press down on the handle then let go of the handle and watch the handle shoot back up.
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Old 03-17-2009, 02:50 AM   #16
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Right, but taking away 1/2 the cylinders at low rpm cruising speeds and 26hp seems like alot just to squeeze out a 2mpg difference. It must have put it in the gas guzzler tax range without the AFM like Kyle2K was thinking. There wouldn't have been any other reason to use it IMO.



No it's not that hard to figure that the mpg between an LS3 Corvette manual would be close to the LS3 Camaro manual. But that's not what I'm talking about. The info I was talking about was the need for them using AFM at all on the auto in the Camaro.
because if it did not have the afm, it would not be rated as high as it is. very rarely do you see an auto with better fuel economy than a standard. really just the vehicles that offer this feature. Sorry about my first response.
I m really just happy to see the ratings, because initially I opted for the auto just because of the fuel economy, however after doing very minimal research I new that the ls3 would be an almost comparison to the rated mpg that they were giving the auto.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:58 AM   #17
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Hi,

If you really want to know more on this, I would suggest you to navigate about this on internet. In fact, you can have more knowledge than you've at present.

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Old 03-17-2009, 08:07 AM   #18
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If you really want to know more on this, I would suggest you to navigate about this on internet. In fact, you can have more knowledge than you've at present.

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Old 03-17-2009, 08:55 AM   #19
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Active fuel management increased the fuel economy of the SS auto by around 10% compared to what it would have otherwise. A 10% increase is pretty substantial. The overall gearing on the automatic is shorter in 6th than the manual, at least on the SS's. This will cause a slight decrease in fuel economy, then couple that with the fact that its an automatic, you probably would have seen it rated at 22 or 23 mpg instead of 25. And that is rated, not actual. I would be shocked if it doesn't reach into the 30's while cruising at 55-60 mph.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:56 AM   #20
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Active fuel management increased the fuel economy of the SS auto by around 10% compared to what it would have otherwise. A 10% increase is pretty substantial. The overall gearing on the automatic is shorter in 6th than the manual, at least on the SS's. This will cause a slight decrease in fuel economy, then couple that with the fact that its an automatic, you probably would have seen it rated at 22 or 23 mpg instead of 25. And that is rated, not actual. I would be shocked if it doesn't reach into the 30's while cruising at 55-60 mph.


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what was so funny about that?
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:15 AM   #21
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[QUOTE=JMAN311;342130]17/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with manual transmission
18/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with automatic transmission
16/24 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with manual transmission
16/25 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with automatic transmission




What's up with that? Guess I didn't realise how much at automatic tranny can rob fuel mileage....:QUOTE]

Auto's fuel economy is a pleasant surprise! When have you ever seen an AUTO with better economy than a six-speed manual in the same application? And apparently, based on early performance numbers, the auto is as quick to 60 as the stick --- go figure!!
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:28 AM   #22
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[QUOTE=GoldBowtie;343462]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAN311 View Post
17/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with manual transmission
18/29 mpg (city/hwy) – 3.6L DI VVT V6 with automatic transmission
16/24 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with manual transmission
16/25 mpg (city/hwy) – 6.2L V8 with automatic transmission




What's up with that? Guess I didn't realise how much at automatic tranny can rob fuel mileage....:QUOTE]

Auto's fuel economy is a pleasant surprise! When have you ever seen an AUTO with better economy than a six-speed manual in the same application? And apparently, based on early performance numbers, the auto is as quick to 60 as the stick --- go figure!!

not to mention the fact that the SS auto has more going against it than the manual.

L99 motor with less cr, different pistons, lifters, cam, more drivetrain loss thru the trans, as well as a different rear end gear ratio.

what they should test (and/or offer) is rear gearing of the M6 in the A6.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:34 AM   #23
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Active fuel management increased the fuel economy of the SS auto by around 10% compared to what it would have otherwise. A 10% increase is pretty substantial. The overall gearing on the automatic is shorter in 6th than the manual, at least on the SS's. This will cause a slight decrease in fuel economy, then couple that with the fact that its an automatic, you probably would have seen it rated at 22 or 23 mpg instead of 25. And that is rated, not actual. I would be shocked if it doesn't reach into the 30's while cruising at 55-60 mph.
Do you think they would have got hit with a gas guzzler tax if the mpg rating sunk into that range of 22-23? To me that still seems like the only reason to have used AFM. Maybe I'm the only one that would have liked to see an LS3 @ 426hp with an auto at the sacrifice of only 2-3mpg.

I tried to calculate the EPA combined ratings with the formula from the gov website but couldn't get the same numbers they have on their list of 2009 cars that got hit with that tax. Maybe auto makers have different city/hwy mpg numbers for the feds than what they advertise or there are just more factors to the equation that they aren't letting us know.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:50 AM   #24
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The cutoff is a "Combined MPG" of 22.5mpg. The EPA's Combined MPG is basically the average of city and highway with an adjustment. The '08 SRT-8 rated at 13-18mpg gets a "Combined MPG" of 19.1.
So if the A6 w/o AFM was rated to 21 or 22mpg highway, it still might not have gotten the tax. But it certainly is more appealing to perspective buyers at 26 highway.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:51 AM   #25
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your wrong about how afm works, it closes off the valves after the power stroke and keeps the exhaust trapped in the cylinder to act as a air spring to push the piston back down so not that much energy is wasted(if any at low load). for example take a bike tire pump put your finger over the hole and press down on the handle then let go of the handle and watch the handle shoot back up.
I stand corrected! At first I was going to say it still requires energy to compress that gas, but when I read more about it I noticed that the energy required to compress it is basically cancelled out the by energy released from the expansion of the compressed gas in the opposing de-activated cylinder. Guess I should do more research before chiming in next time
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