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Old 07-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #15
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I think the most practical would be to get w/grahm for a small shot of nitrous....available on demand and not expensive. A bottle only used when needed will last quite a while before needing a refill, and there are refill staions in most comunities for around $3 or so a pound. The chiller can be adapted to a NA or FI application, but it is really designed right now for FI.

What your xperiancing (mispelled on purpose) is the negative effects of a high DA (density altitude) and ALL fuel injected/computer controlled (and carbed depending on jetting) motors will loose power as the ehat & humidity rises. Humidity (grams of water in a measured amount of air) has to be burned in the combustion chamber and hot air holds less oxygen so you have 2 things working against optimin power.

You can live w/it or my suggestion is a well designed dry kit from Graham for when you "feel the need".

A good ported throttle body will improve the off idle throttle response and a CNC pattern cut VMax will add power as well. It's an inexpensive mod and that may make you happy as well.

Hope this helpped!
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:10 PM   #16
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Well, this is basically a result of my irritation with my drop in performance due to summer temperatures. So, while I would like any improvement above stock, I'm really just trying to find a fairly simple way to compensate for heat soak.

Think of it this way, i want better performance for daily use. I'm also thinking about nitrous for the track, but that's a lower priority. If there was a supercharger available, I'd be saving up for that. Of course, if it can ever did become available, i can start saving then. In the meantime, throttle response and removing heat soak are my priority.
Perhaps try doing the IAT relocation....
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:56 PM   #17
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Wow, lots of good info.

Can a dry shot be left activated all the time? I was under the impression that a dry shot wasn't too smart for this engine, since the nitrous would hit the engine before the extra fuel (but then again we're talking a small amount, not a 100 shot). I also thought Nitrous was "technically" for the track only. If this could safely be available during daily driving, I'd be very interested.

Scrming, I'm dying to do the IAT relocate, but don't want to cut the stock wire harness. Last time I checked, there wasn't a plug-and-play kit yet. But once I see one, I'm buying. Regardless of any other upgrades I add.

Is the VMAX throttle body in production yet SC2150? I've been following that thread and plan on doing it. Especially since it helps with the dead spot. But I'm waiting for the first round to get installed and feedback given before I start budgeting.

Lastly, Where can I get info on the chiller? Is there a website or anything? Depending on cost, that might be a nice, unusual solution that can be adapted when a supercharger finally makes its way over to us V6s. Especially since the most likely candidate is a centrifugal style.

We seem to have gone far afield from the original methanol question. So, to raise that again, here's a question: If I get a tune from Trifecta and have him dial in based on the higher octane. Would that combination see more than his current 13 HP increase? This is obviously not in the same category as the E85 conversion, but that netted around 30 HP I think. Would methanol and the tune net around 20?

Here's a potential setup (maybe ):
1. VMAX Throttlebody
2. Trifecta tune
3. Nitrous shot (50-75) (track use only, maybe)
4. Methanol injection
5. IAT relocated to after bend in the intake tube, around 4-6 inches behind meth nozzle.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:59 AM   #18
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Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #19
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Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
1st, I'm loving this thread and it's been subscribed!
2nd, A little off topic as I don't own a Camaro, but I have an 06 SS/SC Cobalt, tuned by Vince at Trifecta. I just purchased a Methanol kit and i'm planning on installing next weekend when my new Header and Downpipe arrive from ZZP. Now my question is directed this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
I was under the impression that you could not run both e85 and meth together, so I only purchased 60# injectors for my LSJ (supercharged 4banger) as apposed to 80# wich are required to run e85 on my motor. Now, before I go ahead an sell my 60's and get 80's what are the draw backs for running a e85/meth combo if any. My Car is my DD so reliability is a must for me.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by bmorecam View Post
Me and vince over at trifecta basically worked on the same principal with e85 as you would with methanol.. they are both fuel with higher octane level. The main benefit would be to kill detonation or prevent it all together. If you was to do something like this than I would say to go with e85 as it can be alot more efficient if your local area has it at the pump. The benefit on our n/a v6 camaro with stock internal is around 7.5% to the rear wheels at peak over gasoline and this is after maxing out MBT and even tuning out VVT cam phasing to take complete advantage of e85's high octane, but the greater benefit is full torque@3k rpm and off peak power/torque which is alot higher. We worked out some more bugs since my last dyno so I think we should be able to see a little more power/torque on my next dyno session.

Where meth/e85 really shine is with turbo induced enignes. Ask those turbo guys running e85/meth if they will ever go back to gas and they will probably laugh at you lol. The gain is tremendous.
Not enough E85 stations close to me, and with this being a DD and rush hour traffic putting me at 15 MPG already, I don't want to drop down even more.

But I have been following your thread closely and it was part of why this hairbrained scheme popped into my head the other day. I'm hoping to see some of your benefits, but still staying on readily available gas. If E85 ever becomes readily available around my house, I may really crunch the numbers to see how the lower cost per gallon versus the lower gas mileage works out and see if it's worth it.

What is your current MPG with this latest tune? (When your not testing the acceleration.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiE2000 View Post
1st, I'm loving this thread and it's been subscribed!
2nd, A little off topic as I don't own a Camaro, but I have an 06 SS/SC Cobalt, tuned by Vince at Trifecta. I just purchased a Methanol kit and i'm planning on installing next weekend when my new Header and Downpipe arrive from ZZP. Now my question is directed this:



I was under the impression that you could not run both e85 and meth together, so I only purchased 60# injectors for my LSJ (supercharged 4banger) as apposed to 80# wich are required to run e85 on my motor. Now, before I go ahead an sell my 60's and get 80's what are the draw backs for running a e85/meth combo if any. My Car is my DD so reliability is a must for me.
I'm a newbie on this, but since the Meth/water solution would be injected separately, wouldn't the 60# still be fine? Methanol is a fuel, so it doesn't need more gas, and the extra air from the cooled intake temp wouldn't be that drastic. My guess is that unless the 60# are just barely adequate now, simply adding a meth/water injection system wouldn't force you to change them out. But that's just my guess, coming from a armchair QB, not an experienced engine builder. I'd trust SC2150 over me on this any day.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:45 PM   #21
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I'm pretty sure zex makes a universal safe shot kit that adds about 35hp... That would be more econmical and a lot easier to set up. Why would you not go that route if your looking for just a smaller boost?
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:12 PM   #22
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A dry 50-75 kit is plenty safe if sprayed before the MAF so it can measure and add fuel....no spray hits the motor w/out the added fuel. Give Graham a call direct.

The VMax is so close (I wish I could give the date as we just talked to Pete and the final cuts are pretty much finished or near finished. I can post more next Friday).

The chiller threads are on the SC'd cars and we wont be doing the V6 SC kit for at least another 90 days as we have to recoupe some of the costs from the turbo kits.

Lots of good reading here and we can adapt for NA as well.....but I still think the nitrous kit is the most cost effective:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=99515&page=13
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:30 PM   #23
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I'm all for a nice shot of nitrous. But is it feasible to use as a standard item day in and out. Say, activated so if I want to hit it as I enter an on ramp during lunch. Would I potentially be some to open the bottle in the morning and leave it open until night? I'm all set to use this ,if I can run it 24/7 with the shot activating at around 80% throttle ( since it's just a small shot as a throttle booster, not a full race setup.)
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:33 PM   #24
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Just opt for the remote bottle opener and it is a flip of the switch. Arming is also just a switch. Very common and you will be amazed a what a simple 50 shot will do. BUT don't scrimp!!! No cutting corners with spray.

WOT switch, window switch, etc. are all safety options that are a must.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:37 PM   #25
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So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:41 PM   #26
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So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.

It's never enough is it? I'm already thinking of thing for phase 3...
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:46 PM   #27
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It's never enough is it? I'm already thinking of thing for phase 3...

Ha! Nope. Doesn't seem to be that way. I should be done but it's just so hard. If a week or two goes by and the car isn't getting something new I go in "mod withdrawl"!
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:04 PM   #28
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a bi-product of methanol is an extremely low boiling point, so the forced induction crowd would inject a small amount into the charge air to absorb some heat & cool the intake charge down.. You could do the same with water, but it would take two to three times as much water to remove the same amount of heat from the charge temp...
I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg


PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.
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