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Old 07-13-2011, 06:41 PM   #26
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So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.

It's never enough is it? I'm already thinking of thing for phase 3...
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:46 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post

It's never enough is it? I'm already thinking of thing for phase 3...

Ha! Nope. Doesn't seem to be that way. I should be done but it's just so hard. If a week or two goes by and the car isn't getting something new I go in "mod withdrawl"!
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Old 07-13-2011, 07:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skip_168 View Post
a bi-product of methanol is an extremely low boiling point, so the forced induction crowd would inject a small amount into the charge air to absorb some heat & cool the intake charge down.. You could do the same with water, but it would take two to three times as much water to remove the same amount of heat from the charge temp...
I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg


PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:09 PM   #29
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Iv'e been told the same thing by a few experts. That is why you add the water to make it water/meth. Because the water is better at the cooling part.
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:06 AM   #30
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So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.
WHAT?
your gonna give up that easy and let me run the first 9 second 1/4?
c'mon, put the nitrous on and get that 9 now!
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:13 AM   #31
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WHAT?
your gonna give up that easy and let me run the first 9 second 1/4?
c'mon, put the nitrous on and get that 9 now!
I think he's got 9 secs without a shot...just has to get the right day and right conditions.
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:15 AM   #32
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I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg

PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.
I thought he was saying the nitrous cools better than water? I don't know if that's true or not, but you are 100% correct that water cools better than methanol. Like mentioned below you, the mix is where it is at...you get fuel and cooling.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:27 AM   #33
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Just opt for the remote bottle opener and it is a flip of the switch. Arming is also just a switch. Very common and you will be amazed a what a simple 50 shot will do. BUT don't scrimp!!! No cutting corners with spray.

WOT switch, window switch, etc. are all safety options that are a must.
100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supercharged SS View Post
So how much more strain will a 50 shot put on the engine? Seeing that I'm already cranking out 18 psi I'm not looking to have it go boom anytime soon! Honestly I should leave the car the f*#k alone. It's goes plenty fast now and when the fall comes I'll see my "9". But that little red guy on my shoulder keeps asking me whats next!!!!! Maybe that little red guy is Ted.
In your case probably close to none when you figure the drop in IAT. You are going to be looking at a gain of 70-90hp probably from a 50hp shot. Ill answer your PM today and we can get a little communication going.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:31 AM   #34
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I thought he was saying the nitrous cools better than water? I don't know if that's true or not, but you are 100% correct that water cools better than methanol. Like mentioned below you, the mix is where it is at...you get fuel and cooling.
Not even close of the drop in IAT from water vs a nitrous system. Water can still be used very effectively even in conjunction with nitrous. But for solving IAT, nothing does that like 50-150hp worth of nitrous.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:57 PM   #35
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So, Graham!

Lets take a look at what a small Nitrous system would be. Let's suppose I want to be able to remove for dealer visits, so the simpler the better.

Looking around at your website, here's some items that look good, but I'm wondering what the best combo of them would be. So here's my starter "shopping list"
- Dry ring spray that would fit a Roto-Fab V6 intake/filter
- Jetting for 50+ HP shot
- Window switch starting at 1850 rpm through 6,800
- TPS switch set to engage at 80% throttle
- related hardware
- smallest bottle to leave trunk as usable as possible
- remote bottle opener

Now, that's not what a full on drag racer would do, but they shoot a much larger shot, so the starting RPM and the TPS would both be higher. I'm hoping a small 50-60 shot would be usable in the above situation so it works as an assist without requiring all-or-none on the throttle.

Is that a realistic setup on a daily driven street car? What would you change to make it perfect as a "heat soak removal" kit. Since this is NOT a race kit, could some of the items be left off? what would the bare bone, but still complete kit look like? Think budget, not cutting edge (if there is such a thing in mod-world).

I know you can't post pricing, so right now we're just looking at a solution to a problem, not a kit for sale.

SC2150, (or anyone else) if you have any thoughts, chime in!
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:24 PM   #36
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We can certianly work around a budget, but, the remote opener and Progressive controller you will want for the task and fairly pricey add on's when thinking budget.

I can work something up for you. Let me get you something lined out with some good pics as well for those reading with the same idea. Ill get after this in the AM. Long day I'm slacking a little. I get where your going with on the idea and I can make it happen.
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:55 PM   #37
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I understand slacking after a long day. Right now I'm at around 50 hours and still have tomorrow.

Take it easy and we'll check in tomorrow.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:08 PM   #38
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By the way, SC2150,

You mentioned the super chiller from the V8 section could. be adapted for NA vehicles. When I pm'd the guy selling them ( he had the G8), he said they were only for SC applications. Well, i went back to the start of that thread and it seems YOU were the start of that thread and the main developer. So, let me ask you, " what would be involved in developing an NA version, since the SC version cools the intercooler, and a NA doesn't have one, how would it cool the intake charge?
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:59 PM   #39
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:07 PM   #40
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By the way, SC2150,

You mentioned the super chiller from the V8 section could. be adapted for NA vehicles. When I pm'd the guy selling them ( he had the G8), he said they were only for SC applications. Well, i went back to the start of that thread and it seems YOU were the start of that thread and the main developer. So, let me ask you, " what would be involved in developing an NA version, since the SC version cools the intercooler, and a NA doesn't have one, how would it cool the intake charge?
We can use the same workings but cool a pass-through intercooler/heat exchanger so any air drawn past would be cooled just as the intercooler under a maggie/KB/Whipple does. Since it is not mounted right
on top of the engine valley it would not heat soak near as much as a SC one does....and would lower IAT's even more in theory. Now, the power gains would not be as great as a forced induction application as the compressing of the air charge itself is a great heat generator, but it would be similar to running in the cold months and cold air is what these motors love. Cost would be similar but a bit higher due to the need for a intercooler/heat exchanger.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:43 PM   #41
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2. Skip, I get the details you provided, but I'm a bit confused. What is the overall message? Are you for or against the idea? Or saying it only benefits FI? Sorry, just a bit slow today I guess.
My point was, if you want more power, you need more O2. I mean, cooling the air charge will get you more O2, but from the stand point of dollars to HP, NOS is the most bang for your buck, (pardon the pun)...

cooling the air charge gets more done with forced induction, but might not be worth the time or money on a naturally aspirated engine, as opposed to a bolt-on NOS kit.

NOS is bolt on, flick the switch and off you go, more O2, more fuel, and more power... The only drawback is keeping the airfuel ratio from going to lean and blow-torching your pistons.

I don't have too much experience with NOS, it was waaaay to dangerous to use on an air cooled porsche engine... So all the latest NOS stuff is new to me.. I'm learning from this thread as well...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
I beg to differ. Water has up to 6 times the capability of latent heat absorption than methanol does (depending on who you talk to, IE: Aquamist vs Coolingmist etc). This is directly proportional to how finely you can atomize the water as it is injected.

A brief excerpt from the Aquamist site:

Water to Fuel ratio

We've seen that excess fuel is traditionally used as in-cylinder coolant. We've also seen here that water is a much better alternative for this purpose, since its latent heat is 6 -7 times higher than fuel (energy absorbed as the tiny droplets evaporate)

Latent heat of fuel = 350KJ/kg
Latent heat of Methanol = 1109 Kg/kJ
Latent heat of water = 2256KJ/kg


PLUS, it does not ADD heat to the cylinder burn as methanol would (because meth is a fuel remember) when it reaches the cylinders. PLUS it will remove any carbon build-up on the valves and piston faces as it is converted to steam by its heat absorption... PLUS it is FREE!

Just adding my FHE with water injection.
Yes I was wrong there, I always get that ass-backwards because of the lower boiling point of the methanol.

We used water injection on the turbo porsches (street cars anyway). It was just so much easier to work with...

and yes, we were the old school mechanics streaming water into the intake to blow off all the carbon build up on the piston...
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:59 PM   #42
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We can use the same workings but cool a pass-through intercooler/heat exchanger so any air drawn past would be cooled just as the intercooler under a maggie/KB/Whipple does. Since it is not mounted right
on top of the engine valley it would not heat soak near as much as a SC one does....and would lower IAT's even more in theory. Now, the power gains would not be as great as a forced induction application as the compressing of the air charge itself is a great heat generator, but it would be similar to running in the cold months and cold air is what these motors love. Cost would be similar but a bit higher due to the need for a intercooler/heat exchanger.
So, if I understand this right, we would have a Freon filled intercooler under the airbox so as air is pulled up into the air filter, it is cooled? Or are we cutting out a section of the air tube and inserting the intercooler there? Or did I get this bass ackwards?

Would you estimate this gain using the formula of X degrees = Y hp change? So dropping from 110 to say 70 would be a drop of 40 degrees, so 16 - 20 hp? Or am I way off base?
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:09 PM   #43
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So, if I understand this right, we would have a Freon filled intercooler under the airbox so as air is pulled up into the air filter, it is cooled? Or are we cutting out a section of the air tube and inserting the intercooler there? Or did I get this bass ackwards?

Would you estimate this gain using the formula of X degrees = Y hp change? So dropping from 110 to say 70 would be a drop of 40 degrees, so 16 - 20 hp? Or am I way off base?
I just dont understand why you would spend this amount of time, energy, money for such a small gain. I was always nervous of nitrous, but now I would throw a small system on any car without any hesitation. If it is done right, which is not tough to do, a universal safe shot, with a WOT switch is cheap, compared to adding intercoolers and such. The only problem I can see, is the addiction to that power, and the fact, that it doesn't take much to throw in a couple bigger jets, and produce more power. That is where the money starts to add up. IMO, meth injection on a stock, or near stock engine, is wasting money and time. There is plenty of easier power to be had.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:18 AM   #44
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Skip, thanks for the clarification. That helps

Jeff, this isn't about the size of the gain. It's about maintaining the winter level of performance in 105* heat. Down the road, once I'm closer to the end of the factory warranty I plan to drop in a supercharger (they should finally be out by then. I think SC2150 said he's looking at starting in 90 days or so. And if he starts, he'll deliver.) So, I don't want to go too wild right now. Just something that allows me to run consistently, regardless of the outside temps. given the cost of CAI, headers or exhaust systems, $600 to $800 is not unreasonable for a 20+ hp gain.It's just that this is not the usual route people take.

Remember, my priority is this: Get in, start the car, and drive it on a daily basis. No extra procedures every time I want to run, just get in, start up, and drive. So a nitrous system requires a remote bottle valve on top of any kit. As far as the costs, here's what I've found by surfing the web, along with what info is related to this goal.
A) Methanol Injection - 20-30 HP, $400 for parts, untested on V6 but works on C6 Vette
B) Nitrous w/ remote - 50 HP, $750 for parts, proven. Requires refills
B) Superchiller - 20+ HP(?), $800 for parts, proven for more in supercharger applications

So, at this point, we have Methanol for the lowest price, but it's unproven and requires $6 every few months to refill. Then Nitrous, which requires refills and in not legal on the street except in "theoretical" discussions in most of the country. And Lastly we have a fully street legal method that never requires refills, but is fairly pricey for a NA car.

All three can be converted for use with a SC down the road, so it's not a waste to install now, even if you'll be upgrading in the future.

Again, the prices I quoted above are not anything but rough estimates from looking around at various web sites. Actual costs may be more or less depending on exact components and any discounts, taxes, etc.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:35 AM   #45
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A couple of things. The reason there is a significant gain from meth/H2O inject on turbo cars is they are losing significant power from the extra heat caused by compressing the air (and meth adds some fuel with higher octane). The same is true for S/C cars using the superchiller (roots style SC have even a bigger issue). If you have a FI car and you are seeing 105* IATs after the innercoolder you aren't expecting huge increases by adding meth/H20 as a coolant, you are just playing it safe with the higher octane. That is even with the compressed (more 02/L we are getting). I really don't think you will see comparable gains (e.g. 20 HP) by cooling uncompressed air by 40*. The O2 density just isn't increased enough.

Secondly, if your longterm goal is to go with a S/C, then think about what type you want. If it is roots, then experimenting with the superchiller now may be fun and have some benefits and then won't be a waste of money when you do your "big" mod. If you are going centri, then meth/H2O is still an option or going the IC/HE route like SC2150 was explaining above. It is more expensive than meth/H2O to begin with, but has less recurring cost and not affected by supply (we can't get it here in the winter so we have to store it ourselves). I'm not going to tell you what to do because I wouldn't know myself...I'm just say think it through, including your long-term goals.



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Skip, thanks for the clarification. That helps

Jeff, this isn't about the size of the gain. It's about maintaining the winter level of performance in 105* heat. Down the road, once I'm closer to the end of the factory warranty I plan to drop in a supercharger (they should finally be out by then. I think SC2150 said he's looking at starting in 90 days or so. And if he starts, he'll deliver.) So, I don't want to go too wild right now. Just something that allows me to run consistently, regardless of the outside temps. given the cost of CAI, headers or exhaust systems, $600 to $800 is not unreasonable for a 20+ hp gain.It's just that this is not the usual route people take.

Remember, my priority is this: Get in, start the car, and drive it on a daily basis. No extra procedures every time I want to run, just get in, start up, and drive. So a nitrous system requires a remote bottle valve on top of any kit. As far as the costs, here's what I've found by surfing the web, along with what info is related to this goal.
A) Methanol Injection - 20-30 HP, $400 for parts, untested on V6 but works on C6 Vette
B) Nitrous w/ remote - 50 HP, $750 for parts, proven. Requires refills
B) Superchiller - 20+ HP(?), $800 for parts, proven for more in supercharger applications

So, at this point, we have Methanol for the lowest price, but it's unproven and requires $6 every few months to refill. Then Nitrous, which requires refills and in not legal on the street except in "theoretical" discussions in most of the country. And Lastly we have a fully street legal method that never requires refills, but is fairly pricey for a NA car.

All three can be converted for use with a SC down the road, so it's not a waste to install now, even if you'll be upgrading in the future.

Again, the prices I quoted above are not anything but rough estimates from looking around at various web sites. Actual costs may be more or less depending on exact components and any discounts, taxes, etc.
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647 RWHP & 726 RWTQ @18.5 psi on 93 Octane (locked converter)
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:52 AM   #46
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If you what cooler air temp, stop at 7-11 and put a bag of ice in the air box.
or if you what true HP Nitromethane is the best way with a lower compression motor
Meth, needs compression to make more HP
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:58 PM   #47
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Jfyi, a TC or SC is not 100% power a 100% of the time. During most driving conditions your remain out of boost and in vacume.... Meaning you aren't forcing anything anywhere...

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Old 07-15-2011, 02:46 PM   #48
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Quick question, while waiting for Graham to get back with a starter kit that might fit this situation.

This entire time, we've been saying "gain of XX hp." In reality, what I'm actually saying is "recovered XX lost hp." I'm talking about a kit that keeps the engine at 312 regardless of AIT. In February, my AIT was around 80 in traffic, dropping below 70 while driving. Currently, my AIT starts at 100 and can climb up to 120 very quickly. Not even sure what it is in stop and go traffic in the afternoons, never took measurements.

So my question is this: Have we all be talking about "regaining" 15-50 hp with the various methods, or have we accidentally dropped into talking about potential gains on top of 312?

Of course, nitrous would be a constant gain, so in the summer I regain with a small bonus, and in the winter, it's all gravy.

Jason7, I just learned something new. I thought Turbos went from vacuum to boost, but thought SC always ran boost, just more as RPM climbs. Thanks for the info! So if I'm under, say 2,500 rpm I'm still getting roughly the same mileage as a non-SC car? or does the mechanical drag really take a toll on the MPG?
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:06 PM   #49
Graham@N
 
Drives: Pontiac Firebird
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I can do a system with the above mentioned parts for a touch over 800$

The thing about is you will be able to adjust the nitrous system as well.

Set it for as low as 35hp merely to "recover" as you put it from extreme weather conditions, to 75hp to make the drive to work a little more entertaining.

With shot sizes this small and length you will use it, I would not doubt 20+ hit's out of a 10lb bottle.

This is as simple as

1) Switch to arm system
2) Switch to open bottle
3) Push the go pedal
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
A couple of things. The reason there is a significant gain from meth/H2O inject on turbo cars is they are losing significant power from the extra heat caused by compressing the air (and meth adds some fuel with higher octane). The same is true for S/C cars using the superchiller (roots style SC have even a bigger issue). If you have a FI car and you are seeing 105* IATs after the innercoolder you aren't expecting huge increases by adding meth/H20 as a coolant, you are just playing it safe with the higher octane. That is even with the compressed (more 02/L we are getting). I really don't think you will see comparable gains (e.g. 20 HP) by cooling uncompressed air by 40*. The O2 density just isn't increased enough.

Secondly, if your longterm goal is to go with a S/C, then think about what type you want. If it is roots, then experimenting with the superchiller now may be fun and have some benefits and then won't be a waste of money when you do your "big" mod. If you are going centri, then meth/H2O is still an option or going the IC/HE route like SC2150 was explaining above. It is more expensive than meth/H2O to begin with, but has less recurring cost and not affected by supply (we can't get it here in the winter so we have to store it ourselves). I'm not going to tell you what to do because I wouldn't know myself...I'm just say think it through, including your long-term goals.
That's a good point. I only have 1 positive claim of gaining HP on a NA engine. Spinmonster on the corvette forum did it with a vette and got good gains. But he's the only one, and that's not an LLT V6. Everyone else says it's a no go.

Of course, my goal was originally just to regain the lost HP in my power curve due to the temps going from 60* ambient to 105* ambient. So if this were to simply drop the ambient air being fed into the engine from 105 to 60, would it regain the lost power and responsiveness? No "Max Gain" question here, just wondering if 60* during winter = 60* during summer. There's a kit out there that would do the temp drop for around $400. So when I was saying max gain of maybe 20, I was saying Summer HP of 289 being brought back up to 309. In the winter, I was never thinking this would be anything. But we have 90+ temps from May through September, so regaining my winter level of performance for 5 months of the year seemed a reasonable goal.

From that perspective, does it seem feasible, or still a no go??
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