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Old 07-14-2011, 01:32 PM   #1
Joey@Tick

 
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Thumbs up Sticking clutch pedal issues - Tick Performance feels your pain!

As a new sponsor here on Camaro5, I'm seeing a ton of threads made by folks having issues with their clutch pedals sticking to the floor during aggressive driving. We here at Tick Performance have a very good understanding of this all-too-familiar problem, as it has been happening to all performance-oriented GM vehicles for years. We've totally solved this issue in many other applications (you can even read about our Adjustable Master Cylinder kit for 04-06 GTO in GM High Tech magazine, here); unfortunately there is no 100% solution for the 2010+ V8 Camaro yet.

The cause of the problem: the stock clutch master cylinder simply doesn't flow enough fluid to push the clutch slave cylinder far enough to fully disengage the clutch. This produces extreme heat inside the bellhousing, boiling the fluid inside the hydraulic system (thus introducing air) and causing a faded (or totally dead) clutch pedal. Other side effects include difficulty shifting at high RPMs, difficulty engaging 1st and Reverse while stopped, shortened clutch life and shortened transmission life. We've been seeing this exact issue for years in many applications.

Known Band-Aids for the problem: Notice we say band-aids, not fixes. These items may help your problem, although they won't solve it:
  • Tick Performance Stainless Braided Clutch Line (here)
  • Lingenfelter Clutch Pedal Return Kit
  • Tick Performance Slave Cylinder Shim (.115")
  • Keeping fluid fresh and free of clutch dust
  • Using exotic, expensive aftermarket hydraulic fluid
  • We've even seen some reservoir modifications, etc
Unfortunately, these items will only help ease the symptoms of the problem, best case scenario.

There is only one way to SOLVE the problem: by upgrading the master cylinder to move more fluid. Our Adjustable Master Cylinder kits that utilize a bigger bore cylinder have solved this problem in thousands of other GM applications (93-02 F-Body, 97-08 Corvette, 04-06 GTO, etc) but in 2009, GM changed the way the computer monitors the clutch master cylinder, making it impossible to use our kit as designed. This leaves 2009+ Corvette owners, 2009 G8 GXP owners and 2010+ V8 Camaro owners without a solution for the time being.

We certainly haven't given up. Our engineers are still working to design a kit that will work as intended with the stock computer, but we've not gotten anything to build on - yet. I wish I had an ETA on a solution or at least a better idea on a timeline for everyone, but at this point there is no information available. Just know that we're definitely aware of the problem, we definitely know how to solve it, and we're working hard to make an Adjustable Master Cylinder Kit a reality for these cars.

Last edited by Joey@Tick; 07-14-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:03 PM   #2
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Welcome,

Are you guys bringing anything to the table for the v-6 community?
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:15 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_LoW29 View Post
Welcome,

Are you guys bringing anything to the table for the v-6 community?
No plans as of now - once we develop the V8 units, we'll evaluate demand.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
As a new sponsor here on Camaro5, I'm seeing a ton of threads made by folks having issues with their clutch pedals sticking to the floor during aggressive driving. We here at Tick Performance have a very good understanding of this all-too-familiar problem, as it has been happening to all performance-oriented GM vehicles for years. We've totally solved this issue in many other applications (you can even read about our Adjustable Master Cylinder kit for 04-06 GTO in GM High Tech magazine, here); unfortunately there is no 100% solution for the 2010+ V8 Camaro yet.

The cause of the problem: the stock clutch master cylinder simply doesn't flow enough fluid to push the clutch slave cylinder far enough to fully disengage the clutch. This produces extreme heat inside the bellhousing, boiling the fluid inside the hydraulic system (thus introducing air) and causing a faded (or totally dead) clutch pedal. Other side effects include difficulty shifting at high RPMs, difficulty engaging 1st and Reverse while stopped, shortened clutch life and shortened transmission life. We've been seeing this exact issue for years in many applications.

Known Band-Aids for the problem: Notice we say band-aids, not fixes. These items may help your problem, although they won't solve it:
  • Tick Performance Stainless Braided Clutch Line (here)
  • Lingenfelter Clutch Pedal Return Kit
  • Tick Performance Slave Cylinder Shim (.115")
  • Keeping fluid fresh and free of clutch dust
  • Using exotic, expensive aftermarket hydraulic fluid
  • We've even seen some reservoir modifications, etc
Unfortunately, these items will only help ease the symptoms of the problem, best case scenario.

There is only one way to SOLVE the problem: by upgrading the master cylinder to move more fluid. Our Adjustable Master Cylinder kits that utilize a bigger bore cylinder have solved this problem in thousands of other GM applications (93-02 F-Body, 97-08 Corvette, 04-06 GTO, etc) but in 2009, GM changed the way the computer monitors the clutch master cylinder, making it impossible to use our kit as designed. This leaves 2009+ Corvette owners, 2009 G8 GXP owners and 2010+ V8 Camaro owners without a solution for the time being.

We certainly haven't given up. Our engineers are still working to design a kit that will work as intended with the stock computer, but we've not gotten anything to build on - yet. I wish I had an ETA on a solution or at least a better idea on a timeline for everyone, but at this point there is no information available. Just know that we're definitely aware of the problem, we definitely know how to solve it, and we're working hard to make an Adjustable Master Cylinder Kit a reality for these cars.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:25 PM   #5
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subscribed.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:34 PM   #6
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It eludes me to why GM would be aware of this issue for so long and NOT resolve it.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:58 PM   #7
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Identifying the root cause is the first step. Thank you!
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:27 AM   #8
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Thank you guys for the kind words thusfar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
It eludes me to why GM would be aware of this issue for so long and NOT resolve it.
GM doesn't resolve the issue because they're the very cause of this issue. By using an inefficient, sluggish clutch master cylinder, they eliminate the possibility of these cars being powershifted in stock form; thus greatly lowering the chances of replacing major driveline parts under warranty.

If you can't shock or abuse the driveline by aggressively shifting the car, it's much harder to break axles, rear ends, driveshafts, etc.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
GM doesn't resolve the issue because they're the very cause of this issue. By using an inefficient, sluggish clutch master cylinder, they eliminate the possibility of these cars being powershifted in stock form; thus greatly lowering the chances of replacing major driveline parts under warranty.

If you can't shock or abuse the driveline by aggressively shifting the car, it's much harder to break axles, rear ends, driveshafts, etc.
I'll be the first to ask the question based on this statement. Does this "fix", when available, void the power train warranty?

-Funk
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:59 PM   #10
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I'll be the first to ask the question based on this statement. Does this "fix", when available, void the power train warranty?

-Funk
You'll have to check with your salesman on that - warranties vary so much from dealer to dealer, we're hesitant to make any claims on them at all.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:08 PM   #11
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Can you go into more detail regarding this statement?

"computer monitors the clutch master cylinder"

-Funk
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:06 PM   #12
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I can elaborate somewhat, but since I'm not on our engineering team, I can't be incredibly specific.

Our Adjustable Master Cylinder Kit allows you to adjust the amount of fluid your hydraulic system flows by adjusting the pedal height up and down.

On the earlier GM models, the computer could only tell when the clutch was fully up or fully depressed because they had a cruise control switch and a clutch safety switch, which were adjustable so that contact could be re-established even if the pedal is slightly shortened after install of our kit (which is common).

Unfortunately, the 2009+ Corvette, 2009 G8 GXP and 2010+ V8 Camaro computers read the clutch pedal position much more precisely, for example the computer can tell if the clutch is 38% depressed. Since it's common for our kit to lower clutch pedal height (sometimes significantly), it's impossible to install a kit like ours and keep proper function of the vehicle.

We are working on a solution, and I'll certainly pass along more information as soon as it's made available to me!
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:30 PM   #13
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Is the computer controlling flow based on the position of the clutch?

-Funk
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
...the 2009+ Corvette, 2009 G8 GXP and 2010+ V8 Camaro computers read the clutch pedal position much more precisely, for example the computer can tell if the clutch is 38% depressed.
Yep, ran into that when installing a 2-step: Had to install a programmable TPS switch on that CMOS signal wire coming from this odd OEM clutch switch just to act like a...#$%@$ clutch switch!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
We are working on a solution, and I'll certainly pass along more information as soon as it's made available to me!
Glad to see Tick engineering solutions for 5th gens. All my 4th gen friends use your products and it kinda makes me jealous they have such good options!
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnyklr View Post
Is the computer controlling flow based on the position of the clutch?

-Funk
No, just monitoring clutch pedal position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatisl View Post
Yep, ran into that when installing a 2-step: Had to install a programmable TPS switch on that CMOS signal wire coming from this odd OEM clutch switch just to act like a...#$%@$ clutch switch!

Glad to see Tick engineering solutions for 5th gens. All my 4th gen friends use your products and it kinda makes me jealous they have such good options!
Thank you for the kind words - we're working hard at it!!
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:23 AM   #16
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Clutch Pedal position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
No, just monitoring clutch pedal position.
Thank you for the kind words - we're working hard at it!!
Ok, so what exactly does the computer do based on the clutch pedal position? Considering that RAM clutches now has a hydraulic adjuster available that allows us (5th gen'ers) to set the pedal at any height we want, what would the computer do or care about where the clutch pedal is? Since there are no governors\controllers anywhere that it could interfere with or activate to override or change clutch engagement, etc. what's the point of the ECM even tracking clutch pedal position? Sounds like something else a tuner will have to disable when it comes time to do anything with the car.
If anyone has any idea of the consequences of the clutch pedal travel being altered, I'd love to hear it. The only thing I could think of that might happen is that some idiotic code pops up that has to be cleared....
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:29 AM   #17
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does the ZR1 master cylinder flow more than ours? I wonder if there is a way for that to work.
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:40 PM   #18
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I have exhausted my knowledge on the topic, as I'm merely in sales and we don't have any product developed yet.

I will pass this thread along to a product engineer of ours - perhaps he can chime in.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:55 PM   #19
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There are a number of parameters for clutch decel fuel that rely on clutch position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaRSSS View Post
Ok, so what exactly does the computer do based on the clutch pedal position? Considering that RAM clutches now has a hydraulic adjuster available that allows us (5th gen'ers) to set the pedal at any height we want, what would the computer do or care about where the clutch pedal is? Since there are no governors\controllers anywhere that it could interfere with or activate to override or change clutch engagement, etc. what's the point of the ECM even tracking clutch pedal position? Sounds like something else a tuner will have to disable when it comes time to do anything with the car.
If anyone has any idea of the consequences of the clutch pedal travel being altered, I'd love to hear it. The only thing I could think of that might happen is that some idiotic code pops up that has to be cleared....
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Old 07-25-2011, 03:52 PM   #20
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Joey,

I am so subscribed to this thread, and will be a customer as soon as you have a solution. Ive changed shift forks, synchros, and the clutch... Still frying the clutch due to not being able to fully disengage my twin disc.

Let me know if you need some test vehicles and I'll drive to wherever you guys are and let you install it and set it up.... Then I'll give you feedback and an honest opinion for a big HP vehicle... If it works on mine, it should work on most I would think...

Just Offering...
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
I have exhausted my knowledge on the topic, as I'm merely in sales and we don't have any product developed yet.

I will pass this thread along to a product engineer of ours - perhaps he can chime in.
So i have a V6 with a manual trans. If I were to install the SS master cylinder, which I assume has a larger bore, would it help any. Since its larger and moves more fluid. Would it affect the pedals position?
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Last edited by nak3dsnake; 07-26-2011 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:51 PM   #22
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Don't mismatch cylinder bore size and brakes. You have smaller brakes so you have a smaller cylinder. Screwing with that ratio can give you brakes that turn to mush or lock up your brakes all the time.
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey@Tick View Post
I can elaborate somewhat, but since I'm not on our engineering team, I can't be incredibly specific.

Our Adjustable Master Cylinder Kit allows you to adjust the amount of fluid your hydraulic system flows by adjusting the pedal height up and down.

On the earlier GM models, the computer could only tell when the clutch was fully up or fully depressed because they had a cruise control switch and a clutch safety switch, which were adjustable so that contact could be re-established even if the pedal is slightly shortened after install of our kit (which is common).

Unfortunately, the 2009+ Corvette, 2009 G8 GXP and 2010+ V8 Camaro computers read the clutch pedal position much more precisely, for example the computer can tell if the clutch is 38% depressed. Since it's common for our kit to lower clutch pedal height (sometimes significantly), it's impossible to install a kit like ours and keep proper function of the vehicle.

We are working on a solution, and I'll certainly pass along more information as soon as it's made available to me!
Wow, that sucks. I guess I will have to mess with this when my stock clutch gives up.
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Old 07-28-2011, 07:06 AM   #24
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Don't mismatch cylinder bore size and brakes. You have smaller brakes so you have a smaller cylinder. Screwing with that ratio can give you brakes that turn to mush or lock up your brakes all the time.
What does that have to do with the clutch master cylinder. It doesn't push enough fluid, the SS's may be slightly larger. I have Brembos and the SS brake master cylinder. They are separate cylinders.
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:13 AM   #25
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Maybe I'm mistaken then but there's tons of V8 guys with sticking clutches so that won't fix anything.
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