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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 03-24-2012, 10:34 AM   #251
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:44 PM   #252
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:18 PM   #253
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Who cares how meany turboz, If the Z comez out, You can put as meny tuborzz az you want. Then you can call it twin or bi. who cares.
Yeah, watch out for the meany turbos, I heard they are pretty bad....LOL....
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:33 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by 2012ZL1 View Post
I don't think there will be one. In order for a Z-28 to fly, it would need to be a lot lighter, which is impossible with this platform. Once the next gen is out i would expect a Z28.
Why, exactly, does it need to be substantially lighter?

And what makes you think that the gen 6 will be substantially lighter than the 5th gen?


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Originally Posted by cam fan View Post
Leno made the comment in his review of his own LLT with the bi-turbo that it should go into production maybe as a z28.

Gen 4 had the z28 slotted in the middle (v6 - z - ss) so why not?
Leno seems to forget that adding a pair of turbochargers, plus an intercooler, plus plumbing, would make such a car heavier than an SS. Especially when the suspension & other drivetrain components are added to cope with the added power, and to make sure it can handle well.

The 4th gen SS was a bit of an oddball. They were all Z28s modified by SLP. GM didn't make SS's to be a 'step up' from the Z28.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #255
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Why, exactly, does it need to be substantially lighter?

And what makes you think that the gen 6 will be substantially lighter than the 5th gen?



Leno seems to forget that adding a pair of turbochargers, plus an intercooler, plus plumbing, would make such a car heavier than an SS. Especially when the suspension & other drivetrain components are added to cope with the added power, and to make sure it can handle well.

The 4th gen SS was a bit of an oddball. They were all Z28s modified by SLP. GM didn't make SS's to be a 'step up' from the Z28.
I am one of those firmly in the camp that the 6th gen. Camaro will be substantially lighter then the 5th gen. We know the 6th gen will be on the Alpha chassis, the Cadillac ATS is also on Alpha and it's base model is UNDER 3,400 lb., ATS V6 version is at around 3,450 lb., if you add a V8 and some performance parts to that you will be around 3,550 lb. or about 300 lb less than the 5th gen. I posted more exact numbers in one of the threads a couple of months ago right after the ATS announcements were made, the consensus of opinion from several Camaro sites/threads was that the 6th gen Camaro is very likely to be 300 or more lb lighter than the 5th gen, and in my mind that is a substantial difference. I do agree 100% with your analysis of the Leno options, far too much weight compared to an NA LS3 or LS7.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:24 PM   #256
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:02 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
I am one of those firmly in the camp that the 6th gen. Camaro will be substantially lighter then the 5th gen. We know the 6th gen will be on the Alpha chassis, the Cadillac ATS is also on Alpha and it's base model is UNDER 3,400 lb., ATS V6 version is at around 3,450 lb., if you add a V8 and some performance parts to that you will be around 3,550 lb. or about 300 lb less than the 5th gen. I posted more exact numbers in one of the threads a couple of months ago right after the ATS announcements were made, the consensus of opinion from several Camaro sites/threads was that the 6th gen Camaro is very likely to be 300 or more lb lighter than the 5th gen, and in my mind that is a substantial difference. I do agree 100% with your analysis of the Leno options, far too much weight compared to an NA LS3 or LS7.
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And the consensus of opinion on the 5th gen was that it would weigh 3600 to 3700 lbs. And that there'd be a supercharged Z28. And I'm sure there are a few others. Just because a lot of people agree on something, doesn't mean that they'll be right -especially when they have little more to go on than each others guesses.


There is too much that we don't know about the 6th gen to predict how much it will weigh:

  • How big will the car be? Alpha will cover the compact/midsize ATS as well as a full size next gen CTS.
  • What sort of power levels is it supposed to support?
  • How many (if any) aluminum/composite components will be swapped out when building Chevy's instead of Cadillacs?
But even then, lets say you are right and a 6th gen Camaro with a V8 comes in at about 3550 lbs. That still isn't light. Its just 'not as heavy'. Get the car down to the low 3000 lb range (roughly where Corvettes are) ... then you can start calling it light. But for it to be truly considered light, it would need to be under 3000 lbs -something which isn't going to happen.



Don't get me wrong, a lighter car, with all other things being equal, will perform better. But it will still behave like a heavy car, because it will still be a heavy car. Just not as heavy. And so if one way or the other its going to be a heavy car, may as well make one now. Besides, having a 5th gen Z28 in no way prevents a 6th gen z28
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:20 AM   #258
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I don't think we'll see truly light by your definition anytime in the near future (under 3k lb), I don't think we'll even see first gen weights in the near future. I forsee weights like that happening in 15-20 years as CAFE keeps squeezing the fleet averages. We'll just have to wait and see where weights end up going in the near future. I will say that I'll take a "lighter" heavy car any day over the heavier heavy car. I'm not arguing for no 5th. gen Z/28, perhaps you misunderstand me, I would love to see a Z/28 in the 5th gen as I can't think of a more appropriate body style for one.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:56 AM   #259
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ATS weight < 3400 lbs

Camaro weight < ATS weight



Platform sharing minus doors, equipment, luxuries,etc. save 100 -200 lbs ...illustrated even using Benz, charger, challenger example .... 4600, 4400, 4200 respectively.

I think we are safe to assume very close to 3350 lbs. which IMO is unbelievable considering putting in a 400 plus hp v8
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:09 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
I don't think we'll see truly light by your definition anytime in the near future (under 3k lb), I don't think we'll even see first gen weights in the near future. I forsee weights like that happening in 15-20 years as CAFE keeps squeezing the fleet averages. We'll just have to wait and see where weights end up going in the near future. I will say that I'll take a "lighter" heavy car any day over the heavier heavy car. I'm not arguing for no 5th. gen Z/28, perhaps you misunderstand me, I would love to see a Z/28 in the 5th gen as I can't think of a more appropriate body style for one.
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No, I'm just saying that the 'its too heavy' argument against they 5th gen doesn't really hold water because 3600 is still too heavy by any objective measure. It won't make it a light weight, tossable, canyon carving, autocross terror. If I'm not mistaken, handling is the main reason why people want GM to wait for the lighter 6th gen to build the Z28. But anyone who follows the Camaro should know that it is very capable of holding its own with regard to handling. Just look at that recent Motor Trend comparo where the ZL1 beat the Boss LS (which had near race tires) in the corners. And thats a ~400 lb lighter Mustang designed explicitly to handle well on road courses.

Knock 100-150 lbs off the ZL1, mainly off the nose, and give it a suspension setup specially tuned for on-track performance (instead of compromising between road & track) and the gap only gets bigger. Why isn't that enough for a Z28? And furthermore, how does 3600 lbs magically make it 'light enough' to be a Z28?

Its like saying "The SS weak and underpowered because it only has 426 hp, but if it had 455? Then it would be a monster'. No it wouldn't, it would help but its not going to be a radical improvement. Certainly isn't enough to say that the SS should never have been built unless it had that extra power. And yet somehow, people are saying the same type of thing regarding the Z28, that until the Camaro can weigh less there should never be a Z28.

I understand that you haven't made all the claims regarding Z28 & 6th gen that I've talked about here, I'm just using your post to segue into why I don't see why there can't be a 5th gen Z28
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:22 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptianSam View Post
ATS weight < 3400 lbs

Camaro weight < ATS weight



Platform sharing minus doors, equipment, luxuries,etc. save 100 -200 lbs ...illustrated even using Benz, charger, challenger example .... 4600, 4400, 4200 respectively.

I think we are safe to assume very close to 3350 lbs. which IMO is unbelievable considering putting in a 400 plus hp v8
Removing 2 doors doesn't reduce the weight of a car very much. You have to re-inforce the structure to compensate for the larger single opening. Look at the CTS sedan vs coupe. There, the coupe which is a few inches shorter & lower than its sedan counterpart (and therefore slightly less material overall) actually weighs about 50 lbs more.

Luxury content? There won't be a whole lot on the ATS that doesn't have a similar system in the Camaro. Today, its more in the materials & execution that mark the difference between a luxury car and a mainstream car. And one thing you are forgetting is that a 400+ hp V8 weighs about 150 lbs more than a naturally aspirated 4 banger. Then the rest of the drivetrain can easily add at least 50 lbs, maybe another 100. Afterall, an axle designed to cope with 170 ft-lbs is going to be hopelessly outmatched when you send 2 1/2 times that torque through it when the tree goes green at the strip.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #262
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Removing 2 doors doesn't reduce the weight of a car very much. You have to re-inforce the structure to compensate for the larger single opening. Look at the CTS sedan vs coupe. There, the coupe which is a few inches shorter & lower than its sedan counterpart (and therefore slightly less material overall) actually weighs about 50 lbs more.

Luxury content? There won't be a whole lot on the ATS that doesn't have a similar system in the Camaro. Today, its more in the materials & execution that mark the difference between a luxury car and a mainstream car. And one thing you are forgetting is that a 400+ hp V8 weighs about 150 lbs more than a naturally aspirated 4 banger. Then the rest of the drivetrain can easily add at least 50 lbs, maybe another 100. Afterall, an axle designed to cope with 170 ft-lbs is going to be hopelessly outmatched when you send 2 1/2 times that torque through it when the tree goes green at the strip.
Well said!

In one of these threads regarding the L/28 it was mentioned that just replacing the front seats can save a lot of lbs.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:45 PM   #263
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No, I'm just saying that the 'its too heavy' argument against they 5th gen doesn't really hold water because 3600 is still too heavy by any objective measure. It won't make it a light weight, tossable, canyon carving, autocross terror. If I'm not mistaken, handling is the main reason why people want GM to wait for the lighter 6th gen to build the Z28. But anyone who follows the Camaro should know that it is very capable of holding its own with regard to handling. Just look at that recent Motor Trend comparo where the ZL1 beat the Boss LS (which had near race tires) in the corners. And thats a ~400 lb lighter Mustang designed explicitly to handle well on road courses.

Knock 100-150 lbs off the ZL1, mainly off the nose, and give it a suspension setup specially tuned for on-track performance (instead of compromising between road & track) and the gap only gets bigger. Why isn't that enough for a Z28? And furthermore, how does 3600 lbs magically make it 'light enough' to be a Z28?

Its like saying "The SS weak and underpowered because it only has 426 hp, but if it had 455? Then it would be a monster'. No it wouldn't, it would help but its not going to be a radical improvement. Certainly isn't enough to say that the SS should never have been built unless it had that extra power. And yet somehow, people are saying the same type of thing regarding the Z28, that until the Camaro can weigh less there should never be a Z28.

I understand that you haven't made all the claims regarding Z28 & 6th gen that I've talked about here, I'm just using your post to segue into why I don't see why there can't be a 5th gen Z28
OK, at this point I'm going to have to say you are taking EVERYTHING I've said out of context and twisting it to mean something I never said or implied (in spite of your last paragraph). I've been concerned with weight even back when I bought my Z/28 in '69, I went so far as to decline having the dealer undercoat applied in the interest of keeping the weight down. Everyday performance nuts like myself are concerned about every extra pound of weight on their car, we don't simply worry about "will it be truly light" (under 3k per your definition), we worry about keeping off every single extra pound we can. Would a 3,550 lb Z/28 be better than a 3,850 lb Z/28 if everything else was equal? I can't see how it would not be. Am I ready for Chevy to build a 5th gen Z/28 even if it weighs 3,850 lb? You bet I am. And at the same time, I'm still very concious of weight and would do whatever is reasonable and cost effective to keep extra weight off of a Z/28, be it 5th gen or 6th gen.
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:16 PM   #264
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I play it over and over in my mind, what can I do to reduce the weight once I get my Z28 5Gen...seats, exhaust, intake, washer fluid bottle, mmmmmmm...


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Old 03-25-2012, 06:59 PM   #265
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Just to add some info on Alpha and the ATS (because I have not seen it mentioned in many places), the Alpha/ATS has been through suspension tuning/tweaking at Nurburgring, there are some shots of an ATS prototype at the Ring. The sport suspension for the ATS has MRC magnaride suspension, all of this excellent work already done on the ATS tells me that all 6th gen Camaros will benefit because so much of the preliminary work is out of the way. It leaves us still waiting for a 5th gen Z/28 which I hope to see, as well it leaves us waiting to see what body design and models will evolve for the 6th gen Camaro.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:43 PM   #266
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I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:35 PM   #267
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I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.
I too am concerned about what the 6th gen will look like. And that's why I say the 5th gen is perfect for a Z/28 since it draws so heavily on the first gens yet still has a much more modern look to it (IMO).
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:14 PM   #268
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I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.
...well said Chance,,,
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I too am concerned about what the 6th gen will look like. And that's why I say the 5th gen is perfect for a Z/28 since it draws so heavily on the first gens yet still has a much more modern look to it (IMO).
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Agreed Wildpaws. The body style is perfect. But what we seek and have suggested for GM to produce will possibly place the Z/28 up against the ZL1 for sales. Based upon a potential business model conflict that competes one another against the other sales wise where both models are so closely linked in performance GM may not want to venture towards that direction. Do we want a Z/28 with a production LS3? No, unless they put a bigger cam in it, redesign the exhaust, intake, MAF, injectors, and throttle body. Then the motor would need to be recertified. Will they do that at this juncture? Doubtful. The LSA is for the ZL1. Will they use the LS7 for the Z/28? I think not, that is reservered for the Corvette. Do we want the beefed up tranny and rear axle from the ZL1 for the Z/28? Yes. So how do we proceed....I don't see an answer. Putting an off the shelf LS3 on a cobbled together FE4 ZL1 drivetrain and suspension is not visionary. The stock LS3 is fantastic motor, but as it stands in it's current form it will not fill the Z/28 shoes as we have discussed. Just my .02.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:09 PM   #269
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The Z28 would need to be less GT and more track. I still say the 1LE with an LS7.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:29 PM   #270
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Kind of off topic regardless of weight being UNDER 3400 (ATS)... Leave it up to chance at waiting for a 6th gen z28... Gm Has ruined beautiful designs before. The lookers are timeless.. Regardless of trim level ss z28 or zl1 yenko a 1969 camaro is still nostalgic much like our current piece, what do people want a z28 for? Racing? They have camaro R's for order ya know, ohhh street able racecar oh you mean a zl1.

In retrospect I'd love a z28 5th gen, not even lighter, just more track focused, like brakes, ratios, that cool zl1 wheel, lighter materials ( a la z06 carbon ish), perhaps just more organic feeling.

Sadly, I doubt a z28 in 5th guise, it can't make business sense.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:23 PM   #271
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After reading some of the posts on here, a question came to mind - is it possible to have a Z28 and a ZL1 in the same Camaro line? For those hardcore to have the 1LE to be the Z28, it would only be sensible to achieve a lighter Camaro than the SS is to have GM utilize lighter materials like carbon fiber but then that also might make it costlier to produce. Another alternative would be if they developed a lighter yet stronger type of steel that would be less expensive a process than Carbon fiber, or an aluminum that has all the same characteristics and strengths of steel.

I think GM would have to make the Camaro a little smaller to gain some substantive weight loss in order to make the power/weight ratio something that would make the overall automotive populace say "YES - that's the ticket", but the argument could be made that now your sacrificing, legroom, trunkspace, etc.

Now getting back to the original question, If GM develops the Z28 close to what the major consensus of what it should be, I think it's going to be difficult to really distinguish between the two performance wise because:

1. the Z28 is 'supposed' to be lighter and less horsepower but stonger internals and NA.

2. the ZL1 is heavier but more horsepower

yet both are technically going to be track cars(ok the Z28 will be more for the strip probably ) so aerodynamically and suspension wise about the same, yes?
So, again the power to weight ratio comes into play here and I have a feeling we'll be splitting hairs here.
I know a lot of guys here want the Z28 to have a different appearance from the front mostly but it still doesn't really seperate it from the ZL1 that much, appearance wise. It's my opinion and speculation that I think that GM is aware of these subtlies and in order not to "cross-contaminate" sales, that they will come out with the 'hallowed' Z28 in the 6th Gen after utilizing and perfecting the technology of the ZL1 and thus replacing and retiring the ZL1 - though this might be strongly influenced by market conditions and demand if it continues to improve (as long as we don't have another market upheaval and major recession) All these are what ifs, but either way, for now, we are winning.

edit: I think OldSchool has it nailed
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:34 AM   #272
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Well historically, Z/28s have never really been lighter than any other Camaro. Take first gens, the only reason a Z/28 might be lighter is the fact you could not order AC on it yet you could on most SS models, so a SS 350 with AC would have been heavier than a Z/28 despite them both being SBCs from '67-'69.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #273
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There is, currently, an $18K spread between a Base 2SS and a Base ZL1...$18 freakin' GRAND! Doesn't everyone think that's a mighty BIG spread, with a lot of room for potential Camaro buyers to fall through the price "cracks"?

How do you fill it? A gussied-up "Dusk"-like Trim Package? A 1LE Performance Handling Package? A "Z/28" model, based on 1SS (with 2SS-like upgrades available)? ALL of them??

The ZL1, for all intents and purposes, includes "all the above" and more...the "ultimate Gen-5 Camaro" utilizing just about every possible "weapon" from the GM parts bin (save the LS9). Which, among other things, aggravates its Curb by well over 200 lb.

The "raison d'etre" for the ZEE is NOT 1/4-mile excellence...it IS for canyon-carving, road course-commanding, maximum handling/cornering FOR THIS GENERATION. Side loads. Maximum gription. Maximum braking in minimum distances.

"Rationalize" its building methods. How much seam-sealer, insulation, doo-dads etc.? Does it really need a back-up camera (most road courses are run in a forward direction...), heated leather (south of the Mason-Dixon?), dual 6-way Power seats etc.? Embroidered headrests/floormats (as an example of non-necessities for a "light-as-likely" Gen-5)? I know what I bought...I bought a Camaro, NOT a CADmaro...

Deleting 250 lb. (150 of which is the LSA's supercharger-intercooler) without deleting the HD ZL1 driveline can ONLY have a positive effect on ultimate handling stats...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. GT500...

Adding more power will certainly help...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. the GT 5.0...

How can you build an LS7'd car for less dough than an LSA'd car? Leave all the track-unnecessary crap on the parts racks, and build it from a 1SS Base with ZL1 (1LE) driveline and 1LS trimmings. You'd have a $31-something Base + $10K for the 1LE (HD driveline included) + $7K (extra) LS7 = BOSS LS price...well under $50K.

Remember how close in lap times a Z06 is to a ZR1? And their rated power difference is about 130 hp and 150 lbs? Imagine if the power difference was ONLY 75 and the weight was 250!! A coin-toss, most places, simply because, as good as the ZL1 is (and the ZR1 is), oftentimes, less can be MORE...more easily driven by more people...FACT! Which means MORE MEGA-ULTRA-PERMA-GRINS...

"Different strokes for different folks"...and a ZEE-creature IS "different"... I'll certainly admit to that!
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:10 AM   #274
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Can there be a "proper" Gen-5 Z/28?

Yes, unequivocally.

"Will there be a Gen-5 Z/28"?

NO ONE, here, will dare commit to it, publicly, unless/until GM officially decides...

"Will there be a Gen-6 Z/28"?

You better bet your bippy there WILL be...
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:28 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
The Z28 would need to be less GT and more track. I still say the 1LE with an LS7.
...that's the model.., as we have visualized,..but I think they have the LS7 locked in to and strictly dedicated to the Z06 for whatever reason. Remember when the LT1 was the standard engine for the Z-28? That top of the line small block was for the "Vette, yet shared by the Camaro (and they still had to give it a higher HP rating for the 'Vette crowd). Why the change in philosophy today? That's my argument. We borrowed technology from the big ticket 'Vette's for the ZL1, why not the LS7 as well for the Z/28? That's the answer to the only real problem in the Z/28 equation. Z/28 = LS7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
Well historically, Z/28s have never really been lighter than any other Camaro. Take first gens, the only reason a Z/28 might be lighter is the fact you could not order AC on it yet you could on most SS models, so a SS 350 with AC would have been heavier than a Z/28 despite them both being SBCs from '67-'69.
Clyde
...very true Clyde. And there is too much focus on weight nowadays I agree. As people have susgested, we aren't going to hack apart the Holden Zeta chasis any or incorporate any new manufacturing processes or materials. That's what makes this model shine is the structural integrity. New manufacturing processes and material will come on Gen6. The base model Camaro weight is what the weight is. As Chance said, we don't want a GT car. I think that is a sound strategy to move away from the added things that are placed into the product that GM feels will appeal to a wide and diverse consumer market, and focus specifically on what do we really need for a more niche oriented performance car. Cut the frills out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
There is, currently, an $18K spread between a Base 2SS and a Base ZL1...$18 freakin' GRAND! Doesn't everyone think that's a mighty BIG spread, with a lot of room for potential Camaro buyers to fall through the price "cracks"?

How do you fill it? A gussied-up "Dusk"-like Trim Package? A 1LE Performance Handling Package? A "Z/28" model, based on 1SS (with 2SS-like upgrades available)? ALL of them??

The ZL1, for all intents and purposes, includes "all the above" and more...the "ultimate Gen-5 Camaro" utilizing just about every possible "weapon" from the GM parts bin (save the LS9). Which, among other things, aggravates its Curb by well over 200 lb.

The "raison d'etre" for the ZEE is NOT 1/4-mile excellence...it IS for canyon-carving, road course-commanding, maximum handling/cornering FOR THIS GENERATION. Side loads. Maximum gription. Maximum braking in minimum distances.

"Rationalize" its building methods. How much seam-sealer, insulation, doo-dads etc.? Does it really need a back-up camera (most road courses are run in a forward direction...), heated leather (south of the Mason-Dixon?), dual 6-way Power seats etc.? Embroidered headrests/floormats (as an example of non-necessities for a "light-as-likely" Gen-5)? I know what I bought...I bought a Camaro, NOT a CADmaro...

Deleting 250 lb. (150 of which is the LSA's supercharger-intercooler) without deleting the HD ZL1 driveline can ONLY have a positive effect on ultimate handling stats...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. GT500...

Adding more power will certainly help...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. the GT 5.0...

How can you build an LS7'd car for less dough than an LSA'd car? Leave all the track-unnecessary crap on the parts racks, and build it from a 1SS Base with ZL1 (1LE) driveline and 1LS trimmings. You'd have a $31-something Base + $10K for the 1LE (HD driveline included) + $7K (extra) LS7 = BOSS LS price...well under $50K.

Remember how close in lap times a Z06 is to a ZR1? And their rated power difference is about 130 hp and 150 lbs? Imagine if the power difference was ONLY 75 and the weight was 250!! A coin-toss, most places, simply because, as good as the ZL1 is (and the ZR1 is), oftentimes, less can be MORE...more easily driven by more people...FACT! Which means MORE MEGA-ULTRA-PERMA-GRINS...

"Different strokes for different folks"...and a ZEE-creature IS "different"... I'll certainly admit to that!
As always well presented Lowdown. There is the profit that's built into the base model that carries over through all models. There are weight saving items than can be replaced, such as the seats, with dedicated racing buckets. As you stated, further weight reduction can be potentially found with eliminating sound insultation and other unneccessary creature comforts or options that appeal to a wide consumer market, not needed for the street/track consumer Zee creature. 19's all around...no nav, no console, no floor gauges, no push button steering wheel, no rear cam...you know the drill well! All the bells, whistles, comforts, options, packages, town car stuff is in the ZL1. It's the 4 course meal of high performance American cars! Can't we just get meat and potatoes on the Z/28, hold the frills please....
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