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Old 08-01-2011, 07:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tterb0331 View Post
Saw an SS at the golf course the other day, the owner had taken off the SS badges and put Z28 Badges on... I guess once you label something, it becomes the thing that you have labeled it. Should put a "Smart" sticker on his forehead.
We had some people with the same type of mentality going on in the '60s/'70s. I remember one that I used to see all the time around 1970, 307 2barrel, auto tranny with Z/28 emblems and stripes, he would yammer on to anyone about his "Z/28". Never could get him to go run through the twisties with a few of us when we were getting together, funny how he always had something more important to do when asked.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:40 PM   #27
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An enormous amount of energy, time, money and effort went into the project. A cobbled together Z-28 using the GM parts bin with potential aftermarket joint collaboration has much potential and is intriguing.
"Cobbled together...using the parts bin"...

Does it not make "good business case sense" for the Team to be doing parallel engineering, testing, certification and validation of "certain newly created parts" for "broader application(s)"? You know, two mules can be utilized for two different end purposes...three, if you count an Automatic ZL1. Wheels/tires/brakes/differential/axle shafts/HD Tremec...one with an LSA and MR, and perhaps one with an LS7 and "enhanced FE4"...

Just a thought...or a wish?!

Before the page turns on the '12 calendar, I predict this icon... ...will be used more than once...
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:44 PM   #28
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We had some people with the same type of mentality going on in the '60s/'70s. I remember one that I used to see all the time around 1970, 307 2barrel, auto tranny with Z/28 emblems and stripes, he would yammer on to anyone about his "Z/28". Never could get him to go run through the twisties with a few of us when we were getting together, funny how he always had something more important to do when asked.
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In MY '69, approx. 20,000 genuine Z/28s were assembled by GM. Today, by my estimation, there's about a 1/4 million...

"Missing the boat" comes to mind...
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:54 PM   #29
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In MY '69, approx. 20,000 genuine Z/28s were assembled by GM. Today, by my estimation, there's about a 1/4 million...

"Missing the boat" comes to mind...
Some people just can't be "real" about what they have or don't have. I could have called my '67 RS 327 a Z/28, but it wasn't and I was quite pleased with what it did with the drivetrain it had. My '69 was a Z/28, even more pleasing to drive and it was what it was. We had all kinds of different Camaros, Chevelles, Novas, etc. in the Chevy High Performance Club I belonged to back then, those guys were proud of what they had and found no need to mis-represent what they had. The "wannabes" cruising around were all about mis-representation of their vehicles.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:01 PM   #30
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In answer to the thread heading, "missing the boat" was my cryptic response...do you think GM is listening?

"Clones" and "tributes" are fine, if clearly noted as such. It's when the line blurs at "resale time" that things get kinda nasty...
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
In MY '69, approx. 20,000 genuine Z/28s were assembled by GM. Today, by my estimation, there's about a 1/4 million...

"Missing the boat" comes to mind...


The forgers are getting better with fake trim tags, restamped blocks, and papers.
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:59 AM   #32
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There will be a Z/28, most likely on the new platform, IMO.
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
"Cobbled together...using the parts bin"...

Does it not make "good business case sense" for the Team to be doing parallel engineering, testing, certification and validation of "certain newly created parts" for "broader application(s)"? You know, two mules can be utilized for two different end purposes...three, if you count an Automatic ZL1. Wheels/tires/brakes/differential/axle shafts/HD Tremec...one with an LSA and MR, and perhaps one with an LS7 and "enhanced FE4"...

Just a thought...or a wish?!

Before the page turns on the '12 calendar, I predict this icon... ...will be used more than once...
You are preaching to the choir Lowdown!!!. I followed the thread and read all the arguments for the Z-28. You made an excellent argument I would like to note! My comments were a summary. I, like you, would like to see the same methodology used in a joint effort to bring the platform to market. Inferences can be made from threads that suggest it won't happen anytime soon. I don't have a business degree so I will not argue with corporate logic. However, there will be a Z-28. Clues are laying about to predict that. When is the question. And maybe they are working on it as we speak? I am staying optomistic for the return towards the end of the Gen5 cycle.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:08 AM   #34
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Wixom: Hand-assembles the LS7, the LS9, and the dry-sumped Grand Sport LS3. "Capacity" has been as high as about 9,000 units. Nowhere near that number, currently. Underutilized. With a stiff tariff added to '12 Z06 Base Price, and current economic realities a little bit "cloudy" for Corvette production/sales (combined with the approach of the C7), not likely to soar anytime soon.

Unless...

"Asset utilization" might suggest there's room for "something"...and building engines, there, for a lower price-point car certainly wouldn't hurt Wixom's "efficiency"...or GM's profit$...

After all, you can only "delay the vacation" sooo long before you "pick another boat" to replace the one you "missed"...
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:04 AM   #35
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One interesting approach is what the Challenger did in it's opening year of building SRTs only. Maybe build Gen5s and Gen6s together in 2014 or 2015 with the Gen6 being Z-28 only. How's that for a marketing plan.............
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:18 AM   #36
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i've been wondering if Chevrolet was ever going to come out with a z28 camaro

They have to now.....





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Old 08-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #37
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It's not a camaro with out a Z28. . .

ZL1 is great and all.
heck even the SS is great.
But z28 is camaro. it has been around since Gen 1. this is the first generation with out a Z28...so far.
My sentiments as well. I'm not loving the ZL-1, it's nice and all, just not for me.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:13 PM   #38
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One interesting approach is what the Challenger did in it's opening year of building SRTs only. Maybe build Gen5s and Gen6s together in 2014 or 2015 with the Gen6 being Z-28 only. How's that for a marketing plan.............
Why? The only thing that I can see happening there is GM essentially losing 6 months to a year of Camaro sales by not selling high volume V6's and SS's at the launch of the 6th gen.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:20 PM   #39
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Why? The only thing that I can see happening there is GM essentially losing 6 months to a year of Camaro sales by not selling high volume V6's and SS's at the launch of the 6th gen.
I say interesting because it would only make sense if your wanting to build the Z-28 on lighter platform but still need to get dollars out of the Gen5. Is it too costly to cut weight on the Gen5 to make a high revving lightweight Z-28? It certainly doesn't make sense to wait another 3 or 4 model years when these will sell like hotcakes compared to the ZL1.

We'll definitely know by this time next year what's in stored for the next Z-28.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:40 PM   #40
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I say interesting because it would only make sense if your wanting to build the Z-28 on lighter platform but still need to get dollars out of the Gen5. Is it too costly to cut weight on the Gen5 to make a high revving lightweight Z-28? It certainly doesn't make sense to wait another 3 or 4 model years when these will sell like hotcakes compared to the ZL1.

We'll definitely know by this time next year what's in stored for the next Z-28.
no z28 has lost weight

Everyone needs to stop asking for it.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:51 PM   #41
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IF (capitalized/italic'd) a Z/28 with something approaching LS7 power appears, it will require HD driveline/brakes etc. Added weight to a 1SS "Base". Delete some weight with forged wheels and perhaps lighter summer-only tires, combined with "select" interior features, careful optioning, and built with careful applications of underlay/mastic/seam-sealer etc., and the best likely scenario is a weight-neutral finished product. NO SSX-type diet is likely, for NVH and "practicalities" of price consideration. Generally, "less is more"...expen$ive...and for those who will consider a Z/28 as a daily driver, cruisin' in a steel drum would get "old" in a hurry...

505 hp and 3800-odd lb. will make for a most interesting ride...particularly against the 'Stang Supervisor...
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:34 PM   #42
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I say interesting because it would only make sense if your wanting to build the Z-28 on lighter platform but still need to get dollars out of the Gen5. Is it too costly to cut weight on the Gen5 to make a high revving lightweight Z-28? It certainly doesn't make sense to wait another 3 or 4 model years when these will sell like hotcakes compared to the ZL1.

We'll definitely know by this time next year what's in stored for the next Z-28.
Any Camaros that get sold along side a next gen car will be very unprofitable. Sales will be low, and incentives will be high. They'd be better off to just go into full 6th gen production instead of leading off with the Z28.

As for weight ... I see waaaaaaay to much emphasis on it, be it the Z28, the SS, the ZL1, the V6 ... doesn't matter. Is lighter better? Usually. But its not some sort of be all and end all, there can even be negative aspects to being lighter. Either way, it absolutely does not disqualify the possibility of there being a 5th Gen Z28. The Camaro is an inherently better handling car than the Mustang that weighs some 250 lbs less. So the 'need' to make it lighter to improve handling isn't really there.
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:07 PM   #43
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After what's been said I don't see more than 200 pounds removed from the 6Gen. A 5Gen with an LS7 is totally OK with me!!!
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:05 AM   #44
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After what's been said I don't see more than 200 pounds removed from the 6Gen. A 5Gen with an LS7 is totally OK with me!!!
...and I doubt we'll see Gen-6 Camaros with over 500 hp...

A 3630 lb. Gen-6 (current weight of a BOSS) with 475 hp = the power-to-weight of a 3850 lb Gen-5 ZEE with 505 hp...

And remember, the BOSS tops out at only 444...

"Supervisor" vs. "CEO"!

EDIT:

In a "perfect world", we'd love to have a Camaro that weighed less...perhaps considerably...but we don't. And to remove significant weight while maintaining total structural integrity/crash-ability would CO$T...LOT$! And paying Corvette GS money for a ZEE likely inhibits its potential marketability...and viability.

Less weight would allow for less weighty driveline components, potentially (smaller brakes, less strenuous axles and tranny [engine-dependant of course]), which would further reduce weights...potentially.

At least in the case of a 500+ hp ZEE, that extra initial driveline weight addition is "low" weight and, with forged wheels and lighter weight tires (and, perhaps, a lil c/f here 'n there...), will not adversely affect unsprung weight, greatly. And low weight assists in achieving a lower center-of-gravity, a further assist in achieving better ride and handling.

Adding features like Sunroofs will exacerbate this. "High" weight will adversely affect cg. And add further weight to the Curb. Besides, while lapping your favorite road course, who runs with their roof open, anyway?!
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:26 AM   #45
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Fbod has said himself that the Z28 nameplate would not be use unless the car was worthy (not exact quote). Everyone is dead set on a lightweight Camaro for the Z28 but as the model years pass, the standard SS is gaining weight. There was no comparison done of the 2011 and It is possible that there will be a 2012 comparison merely for the FE4 suspension. I had heard that that the Camaro put on some weight between 2010 and 2011 but nothing that bad however, the 2012 SS LS3 should come over 3900lbs with the camera and FE4 and other tweaks not found in the 2011. By the time the Z28 is ready, the Camaro SS LS3 will be close to 4000lbs... The chances of a worthy 5th Gen Z28 are growing slimmer by the model year.

If Grand Am were to enforce the production car rule on Chevrolet instead of granting them a waiver due to financial issues with the teams, then we may have heard of the Z28 instead of the ZL1 this year. As it was mentioned above, the ZL1 and Z28 should not have their hype tangled. It wouldn’t make sense to release the Z28 before they knew for sure that the ZL1 could handle the GT500. If the 2013 GT500 ends up besting the 2012 ZL1 and GM announces the Z28 after before being able to handle the GT500 would be bad business. And yes, it has to be 2013 vs. 2012, the 2012 GT500 will cease production in January 2012, the 2012 ZL1 should begin production in February 2012 and the improved 2013 GT500 will be released behind the ZL1 before the racing season starts…

There is the SSX but Number 3 himself said that he did not know the final weight of the vehicle. That means that it is either super secret or that it was not what GM was expecting and decided not to go public with the numbers (like convertible pre-orders). I find it hard to believe that someone as close to all things Camaro did not know the weight of the SSX. I think that they do know and it was not impressive enough to go forward…

Very few were as excited as I for a Z28, I even tried to design my own but now.... I have serious doubts that we will see a 5th Gen Z28…

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Old 08-04-2011, 08:54 AM   #46
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It'll certainly be interesting to see what the 2014 ATS coupe looks like on the Alpha platform.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:17 AM   #47
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It'll certainly be interesting to see what the 2014 ATS coupe looks like on the Alpha platform.
I think a "95%" Alpha-based Camaro will be "interesting" as well...

95% size and 95% weight of the existing Zeta-based Gen-5...
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:39 PM   #48
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If this MotorTrend information is true, I think it'd be safe to say we'll see a 2014 Z-28 on the Alpha platform:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...med/index.html
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:11 PM   #49
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Don't give up hope for a Gen-5 ZEE just yet...
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:18 PM   #50
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...and I doubt we'll see Gen-6 Camaros with over 500 hp...

A 3630 lb. Gen-6 (current weight of a BOSS) with 475 hp = the power-to-weight of a 3850 lb Gen-5 ZEE with 505 hp...

And remember, the BOSS tops out at only 444...

"Supervisor" vs. "CEO"!

EDIT:

In a "perfect world", we'd love to have a Camaro that weighed less...perhaps considerably...but we don't. And to remove significant weight while maintaining total structural integrity/crash-ability would CO$T...LOT$! And paying Corvette GS money for a ZEE likely inhibits its potential marketability...and viability.

Less weight would allow for less weighty driveline components, potentially (smaller brakes, less strenuous axles and tranny [engine-dependant of course]), which would further reduce weights...potentially.

At least in the case of a 500+ hp ZEE, that extra initial driveline weight addition is "low" weight and, with forged wheels and lighter weight tires (and, perhaps, a lil c/f here 'n there...), will not adversely affect unsprung weight, greatly. And low weight assists in achieving a lower center-of-gravity, a further assist in achieving better ride and handling.

Adding features like Sunroofs will exacerbate this. "High" weight will adversely affect cg. And add further weight to the Curb. Besides, while lapping your favorite road course, who runs with their roof open, anyway?!
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