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Old 08-09-2011, 09:04 AM   #76
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pill, I have to disagree on a couple of points and give a counter view on some sales issues.

first. being in the military I have to say it's the crowd you run with. I have known more F-body guys than mustang fans. but for the most part each respected the other group. you did have a couple jack asses but hey that's normal.

as for the sales numbers. the economy still sucks. people that want these cars can't honestly afford them for the most part. the ones that can are buying. I honestly believe if we weren't so close to 10% unemployment more sports cars would sale. the camaro is still selling more then the mustang and that's even with a newer version of the stang out. the verts are for people that don't have to worry about cold, or a second car. it's never going to sale well compared to coupes. If I could afford one I'd buy a vert right now. but trying to pay off debt and save for a possible move soon (owning a house and pcsing sucks) it is impossible to afford another car (currently own a duramax and a bike).

I believe people are saving their money more if they have it. if they don't then obviously they aren't buying. but to say the 5th gen isn't aging well is. . .lets say not exactly right.
I'm in that group that's waiting for some money to show up. I would have bought an SS when they first came out, but just couldn't put myself in a bad place financially. Things are going well, and I'm hoping to order a 2012 2SS towards the very end of that model year. My plans could change if I make more or less money, or if they release info on a Z28. The ZL1 is great, but more car than I will ever use and I'm hoping if a Z28 is released that it will be closer in price to an SS than a ZL1. I personally know people that are in my situation, and I'm sure they're not hard to find on this site so I think it is way too soon to say that this car is losing interest.
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:47 AM   #77
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Pill...take a pill...

"GM only sells 70% of what they build"? Where does the other 30% go...landfill?!

Your "majority" Sales figure(s) for V6 Camaros are actually the percentages for MUSTANG. Camaro has enjoyed a better-than-50% SS build-rate since intro and, at times, has been as high as 2/3.

However...and this was important in the past and will be again, very soon...Mustang's continued, uninterrupted success is DIRECTLY due to its ability to market V6 versions that are attractive AND considered great value by "sporty-car" buyers...particularly females. Gen-4 F-cars suffered from "too much tech" (ABS standard, 6-speed manuals, LS1 etc.) relative to the Mustang, and its price differential helped drive business to the Mustang Store...and drove the Camaro into (temporary) asylum (and the Firebird into oblivion).

But the Camaro is back...in a BIG way! With massive pent-up demand! That, if NOT handled, and nurtured, and coddled, and massaged correctly, could peter out again...

Have NO FEAR!! The Camaro Team is "on the beam!" More Models to satisfy more potential Owners (NOT just fanboys/girls). Convertibles. Monster motors with hellacious handling. V6 specialty Packages (coming...). And, the "missing link"...the MOST iconic badge of ALL...yes!...Z/28!!!

Gen-6? More "Mustang-sized", built on the Alpha platform. With Mustang-matching features and prices...just like Gen-5 has Mustang in the crosshairs. As it has pretty much always been...and so shall it continue...

BTW, it was pretty difficult to get "commitments" of any kind (including sustained employment!!) from early '08 through Spring-'09 and Camaro's SOP. Many, including me, are simply grateful the Camaro "survived" to see the light of day...in ANY form or fashion, let alone the worthy version we enjoy, here. You DO enjoy the Camaro, don't you, Pill?!
In 2010, GM sold 76% (horrible) of the Camaro's that it produced leaving 29,000 Camaro’s unsold after a 16 month model year. Last year, the production numbers were dropped but so did sales which resulted in a 85% (still pretty bad) sales ratio over production. As of today, 240,170 Camaro's have been produced and 199,199 have been sold leaving 40,971 unsold 2010 and 2011 Camaro’s at this moment which is about 83%. One out of every five Camaro's do not sell which in turn, destroys the profit generated by 12 Camaro that did sell (assuming a $2500 profit at invoice). This is how companies go bankrupt... The left over cars were left to sit on the lots as the new model years rolled in. Since GM cannot give away factory incentives with the measly profit ratio the Camaro produced, it is left up to the dealers to drop the mark up and possible go below MSRP to eliminate leftover’s. As of 2011, the V6 Camaro made 66% of all sales.. You are thinking about the 2010 which was 50/50 split between the SS and the V6.

Now you want GM to throw in a Z28? They would need to reduce production and stabilize the profit margin before spending anymore money on a niche vehicle again. Especially after being sapped by the ZL1... If sales become too bad we may see a sticker package Z28 (like the 45th Ann) in desperation to keep the brand floating. By winter, sales will be at the Challenger numbers and production will mirror that.

There was a time that I like the Camaro, then GM threw in the towel despite the enthusiast.. only to produce one of the ugliest, overweight and out of shape Camaro almost 10 years later… If the lines were softer (see 2006 Camaro concept) and they named it the Chevelle I would have bought it…

Edit: Just FYI, the Mustang V8s (GT500 and Boss included) make up over 70% of sales. Ford does not have any V6's to sell. If they did, sales could be 20-30% higher than they actually are. I have a feeling that you haven't looked at the sales charts posted on here for awhile...

Last edited by thePill; 08-10-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:47 AM   #78
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There was a time that I like the Camaro, then GM threw in the towel despite the enthusiast.. only to produce one of the ugliest, overweight and out of shape Camaro almost 10 years later… If the lines were softer (see 2006 Camaro concept) and they named it the Chevelle I would have bought it…

...
Sounds like it's time to ride your PONY off into the sunset and out of this forum !!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:24 AM   #79
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Old 08-14-2011, 06:54 PM   #80
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In 2010, GM sold 76% (horrible) of the Camaro's that it produced leaving 29,000 Camaro’s unsold after a 16 month model year. Last year, the production numbers were dropped but so did sales which resulted in a 85% (still pretty bad) sales ratio over production. As of today, 240,170 Camaro's have been produced and 199,199 have been sold leaving 40,971 unsold 2010 and 2011 Camaro’s at this moment which is about 83%. One out of every five Camaro's do not sell which in turn, destroys the profit generated by 12 Camaro that did sell (assuming a $2500 profit at invoice). This is how companies go bankrupt... The left over cars were left to sit on the lots as the new model years rolled in. Since GM cannot give away factory incentives with the measly profit ratio the Camaro produced, it is left up to the dealers to drop the mark up and possible go below MSRP to eliminate leftover’s. As of 2011, the V6 Camaro made 66% of all sales.. You are thinking about the 2010 which was 50/50 split between the SS and the V6.

Now you want GM to throw in a Z28? They would need to reduce production and stabilize the profit margin before spending anymore money on a niche vehicle again. Especially after being sapped by the ZL1... If sales become too bad we may see a sticker package Z28 (like the 45th Ann) in desperation to keep the brand floating. By winter, sales will be at the Challenger numbers and production will mirror that.

There was a time that I like the Camaro, then GM threw in the towel despite the enthusiast.. only to produce one of the ugliest, overweight and out of shape Camaro almost 10 years later… If the lines were softer (see 2006 Camaro concept) and they named it the Chevelle I would have bought it…

Edit: Just FYI, the Mustang V8s (GT500 and Boss included) make up over 70% of sales. Ford does not have any V6's to sell. If they did, sales could be 20-30% higher than they actually are. I have a feeling that you haven't looked at the sales charts posted on here for awhile...
And there was also talk of scaling down production at the mustang plant, so gm isnt the only one not selling vehicles..
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Old 08-14-2011, 08:13 PM   #81
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Would like to see GM produce a Z/28 to compete(and beat) with the Boss 302 Mustang. And I know they could pull it off. But if it will happen? only time will tell.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:19 PM   #82
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In 2010, GM sold 76% (horrible) of the Camaro's that it produced leaving 29,000 Camaro’s unsold after a 16 month model year. Last year, the production numbers were dropped but so did sales which resulted in a 85% (still pretty bad) sales ratio over production. As of today, 240,170 Camaro's have been produced and 199,199 have been sold leaving 40,971 unsold 2010 and 2011 Camaro’s at this moment which is about 83%. One out of every five Camaro's do not sell which in turn, destroys the profit generated by 12 Camaro that did sell (assuming a $2500 profit at invoice). This is how companies go bankrupt... The left over cars were left to sit on the lots as the new model years rolled in. Since GM cannot give away factory incentives with the measly profit ratio the Camaro produced, it is left up to the dealers to drop the mark up and possible go below MSRP to eliminate leftover’s. As of 2011, the V6 Camaro made 66% of all sales.. You are thinking about the 2010 which was 50/50 split between the SS and the V6.

Now you want GM to throw in a Z28? They would need to reduce production and stabilize the profit margin before spending anymore money on a niche vehicle again. Especially after being sapped by the ZL1... If sales become too bad we may see a sticker package Z28 (like the 45th Ann) in desperation to keep the brand floating. By winter, sales will be at the Challenger numbers and production will mirror that.

There was a time that I like the Camaro, then GM threw in the towel despite the enthusiast.. only to produce one of the ugliest, overweight and out of shape Camaro almost 10 years later… If the lines were softer (see 2006 Camaro concept) and they named it the Chevelle I would have bought it…

Edit: Just FYI, the Mustang V8s (GT500 and Boss included) make up over 70% of sales. Ford does not have any V6's to sell. If they did, sales could be 20-30% higher than they actually are. I have a feeling that you haven't looked at the sales charts posted on here for awhile...
What? So he's saying the camaro is a sales failure? LOL, fail. Then what the heck would he call the mustang? With about an 11 million cars sold in 2010 the camaro did fantastic in sales in a down economy with about 130k of them in consumer's hands. Compare that to the 150k 2005 mustang sold in a market that at the time sold about 16 million cars annually if I remember correctly. Also the camaro did that at a higher price point with no incentives.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:50 PM   #83
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The Pill has become Bipolar?!
Hmmm, interesting question Chance, the behavior is like this movie character...with a surreptitious Ford bias.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:55 PM   #84
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The ZL1 is your Z28 for now, like it or not. How much different could a Z28 be from a ZL1? If there will be a Z28 you wont see it untill the 2nd or 3rd year of GEN6.

x2

..oh ya, and New Mustangs suck. (except shelby's)...(and maybe Boss's)..ok but thats it. the rest suck for sure.

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Old 09-21-2011, 10:17 AM   #85
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The shelby is nice I must admit, but the mustang is a cheap car compared to a camaro. Ford does a nice job on the trucks but there is simply no comparison between camaro and mustang. They may sell more because it's cheaper, well of course a cheaply made car will have a cheaper price at the end.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:36 PM   #86
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I agree--the military in this area prefer Camaros hands down..
I agree too. I see more and more Camaro's popping up on Fort Knox everyday.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:56 PM   #87
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IMO...

GM should have NEVER produced the ZL1.

GM should have worked it's way up with a Z/28 first (LS7 track) and worked forward. GM is shooting themselves in the foot going for the all or nothing niche $58k plus ZL1 where I believe GM could have sold many more fun, usable streetable units with the Z/28.

There is a certain niche, a certain usable horsepower limit where a specific car outweighs the "fun factor". Tell me where the average guy will be able to plop down $55k plus on a Camaro and use the available horsepower (ZL1) whenever he wants without impunity?

The Z/28 with a superior handling package and a NA LS7 at around 500 HP coming in at around $45k is a more realistic vision AND version of what GM should have done. The "average guy" doesn't NEED 560 hp AND a $58k sticker...where can he use this car and have fun on a daily basis?

Seriously???

I applaud GM for bringing back an icon (ZL1) but factually the ZL1 sold how many units over the years based on regular production versus the Z/28?

If you are going to bring death back from the ashes, go with a moniker that people recognize, NOT a moniker that didn't sell well and is out of reach financially (especially in this economy) for most people.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:23 PM   #88
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They'll be OK, as they will create the need for a mid pricepoint. Your right many will want a ZL1 however the price will be just too much. Hence it actually could create an even bigger audience for a mid 40's Z28.

Give me a Z28 as described in the Z28 threads.
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Old 09-26-2011, 11:30 AM   #89
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The very first thread I created, here, back in April '09, was a "survey" of potential desire for a "halo" Camaro...less than 6 weeks after the first ones rolled out of Oshawa...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19666

The results showed a better-than-even split in desire for an LS7-engined version vs. a "boosted" version.

The GT 500 was already in the marketplace, garnering all manner of interest, and buyer$. And the "logical" hole to fill in the Camaro portfolio was a direct competitor for said Shelby. And yet, there was a great deal of interest in an LS7...in the very midst of Gen-5 Camaro hysteria.

Since then, something else has emerged from Ford...the BOSS. Something akin what we spoke of, a very long time ago...still unanswered...still sought...by Camaro comrades and Firebird friends...

...and STILL not available, largely, from ANYONE...

That long-suffering tap-tap-tapping, you hear? It's NOT the tinkling of a titanium rod against foreign matter. It's the clatter (some might say crescendo!) of "opportunity", continuing to "KNOCK"!
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:23 PM   #90
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Is there going to be a Z28??? It looks grim.
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Old 12-07-2011, 07:11 AM   #91
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They really need an answer for both the boss 302 and the srt 392.

Lol @ the camaro being ugly. I think its looks are the main reason its outselling the challenger and mustang right now.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:43 PM   #92
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latest gmhtp Mag and their" inside" sources say z28 still in the works for 2012 or 2013. Will be lighter then SS, LS7 or 440 hp LS3. track ready stripped down version like 1le I guess. Made to battle the Boss Mustang and be about 41000. Just got issue. We'll see.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:27 AM   #93
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Take look at his thread today about discontinuing the IBM color. Fbodfather makes mention of the Oshawa plant producing Camaros, Equinoxs, Regals, Impalas and XTSs. This implies a couple of things. First, high production numbers of the Camaro Gen5 is not as important at this plant with this many models. Second, maybe there's an incentive to get the Gen6 moving faster than we think at the ATS plant. Third, maybe the Z/28 will have to wait on the Gen6.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=187972&page=3
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:27 PM   #94
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They really need an answer for both the boss 302 and the srt 392.

Lol @ the camaro being ugly. I think its looks are the main reason its outselling the challenger and mustang right now.
And price, Challenger is the most expensive of the three.
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:43 PM   #95
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And price, Challenger is the most expensive of the three.
$55k for a ZL1, $50k for a GT500, $45k for a SRT8

How is the Challenger the most expensive?
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:53 PM   #96
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$55k for a ZL1, $50k for a GT500, $45k for a SRT8

How is the Challenger the most expensive?
First of all, where did you get the prize for 2013 GT 500 because Ford has not annouce it and the SRt is not in that category, it is mean"t to compete with the Boss Mustang .
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #97
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First of all, where did you get the prize for 2013 GT 500 because Ford has not annouce it and the SRt is not in that category, it is mean"t to compete with the Boss Mustang .
Its their big daddy, loaded up with all the bells and whistles, and its the end of the line for factory Challenger performance. That puts it up against the GT500 and ZL1. It is most certainly not a track focused car with special attention payed to handling & braking over power. Thats what the Boss is, and thats what the Z28 should be. If Dodge wants to play there, they should bring out a Challenger T/A.


I don't have the price of the 2013 GT500. But then again, I don't have the price for the 2013 ZL1, or the 2013 Challenger SRT8 either ... so I just used 2012 pricing, rounded to the nearest $5000.
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:24 PM   #98
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A tuned SS that would compete with the SRT8's 6.4L. That would make sense to be the Z28, since the SS (which should have been the competitor) cannot compete.

Upgrades here and there on the suspension, gear, exhaust, etc... that would throw the current horsepower to the 6.4L's numbers.

The ZL1 is the competitor of the GT500. We don't have a competitor for the current SRT8, so a Z28 would only make sense.
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Old 12-14-2011, 04:25 PM   #99
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$55k for a ZL1, $50k for a GT500, $45k for a SRT8

How is the Challenger the most expensive?
Wow, the SRT is that low now? I thought they were more. Nevermind.
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:56 AM   #100
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So do we know if GM is going to produce a Z28?!?!?

I read a recent article in one of the car magazines that GM is supposed to be selling a Z28 edition in April with the LS7 naturally aspirated and forged engine components. Which would be better for engine life, higher sutained RPMs and the stock LS7 will be a better foundation for engine upgrades. As it stands now correct me if I am wrong but the stock ZL1 trammy is only rated at 600HP? That leaves little room for performance upgrades.

I'm currently deployed, a '10 SS Owner and I just emailed my dealership about a ZL1, but if we are getting a Z28 I think I'd hold out until some track times come out. If anything I would think that the Z28 would smoke the ZL1 on the Nurburgring like the Mustang Boss 302 did to the GT500.
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