Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
sjm autoprod
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6)

V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6) Driveshafts | Differentials | Gears | Rearends | Clutch | Shifters

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-16-2009, 01:39 PM   #1
PONYKILR
 
PONYKILR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 grand am
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 8
SS Shift Point

I've noticed on the SS gauge cluster that the tach is blue to about 6k, with a blue line crossing at about 6250 RPM, then it is red to 6600, then red hashed past that. I am fully aware that the red hashing at 6600 is redline, but what about the area between 6250 and 6600 that's red, and what about the blue line crossing at 6250??? My guess is that it may be the optimal RPM to shift at for the 6-speed... Any other guesses?

Sorry about there not being a pic for reference, but it's on the new camaro site listed below and it's the last picture in the set.

http://www.chevrolet.com/allnewcamaro/#camaro=photos
__________________
You guys, you guys! Listen to this song I just wrote!
PONYKILR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 01:45 PM   #2
BowtieGuy
Enlightened
 
BowtieGuy's Avatar
 
Drives: Nothing Currently
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,300
You may have something there.
__________________
If you believe it is your right to speak freely no matter the content, relevance, or intelligence of statement, then it is my duty to the powers that be to set you straight.

People have to talk about something just to keep their voice boxes in working order. So they'll have good voice boxes in case there's ever anything really meaningful to say.
Kurt Vonnegut
BowtieGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 02:48 PM   #3
c0rsa180
 
c0rsa180's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS IOM
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 208
Thats a good question...will it have a shift light?
__________________


Inferno Orange Metallic
2SS
RS
M6
ordered 2/17/09
c0rsa180 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 02:49 PM   #4
7CAMARO7
 
7CAMARO7's Avatar
 
Drives: Slow 4th gen
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: showing you tail lights
Posts: 287
find out what the ls3 vette guys are shifting at... simple as that Seems to me gm makes the tach, rev limiter, and engine to where you shift within 250rpms of the limiter. So just shift like 250rpm before the red or like 6500
__________________

7CAMARO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 08:23 PM   #5
toehead93


 
Drives: 2014 2SS/1LE
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: wpb fl
Posts: 2,754
Shifting at the highest rpm you can is not always the quickest. There is a point where the next gear will have more power than the gear you're currently in. Although the car may spin to 6,500rpm doesn't mean that shifting at 6,250 is the best shift point. Maybe someone can post a link to a chart to compare rpm to gear shift points.
toehead93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 09:34 PM   #6
7CAMARO7
 
7CAMARO7's Avatar
 
Drives: Slow 4th gen
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: showing you tail lights
Posts: 287
you will never have more power in one gear than the other, your engine just has more leverage over the drivetrain in lower gears.

the rpms=power (as far as the engine is concerned) 6000rpms in first is no more or less hp than 6000 in 5th, there's just a difference in speed

I was only speaking from experience with my ls1. I used to shift at 5500 which is where the red dot dot dot starts and I used to get horrible track times. That was back when I didn't know any better. I learned from all the other guys to shift at 6000 on my car. I started kicking ass after that

Also did you guys ever notice how the 97-04 ls1 vettes always were spec'ed at more power than our F-bodies? I noticed also that the same engine in the vette was spec'ed to something like 345 or 350hp@6000rpms with 350tq@5600rpms or something like that. Well for the fbodies they said 325hp@5500rpms and 325tq@ 4500rpms.

Why would it be different for the same exact engine? ITS NOT! Just something for you new guys to think about.

I also agree that the highest rpm is not always the best, but if the ls2 and ls3 follow after the ls1 then it is...
__________________

7CAMARO7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 10:05 PM   #7
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
you will never have more power in one gear than the other, your engine just has more leverage over the drivetrain in lower gears.

the rpms=power (as far as the engine is concerned) 6000rpms in first is no more or less hp than 6000 in 5th, there's just a difference in speed

I was only speaking from experience with my ls1. I used to shift at 5500 which is where the red dot dot dot starts and I used to get horrible track times. That was back when I didn't know any better. I learned from all the other guys to shift at 6000 on my car. I started kicking ass after that

Also did you guys ever notice how the 97-04 ls1 vettes always were spec'ed at more power than our F-bodies? I noticed also that the same engine in the vette was spec'ed to something like 345 or 350hp@6000rpms with 350tq@5600rpms or something like that. Well for the fbodies they said 325hp@5500rpms and 325tq@ 4500rpms.

Why would it be different for the same exact engine? ITS NOT! Just something for you new guys to think about.

I also agree that the highest rpm is not always the best, but if the ls2 and ls3 follow after the ls1 then it is...
the difference in power ratings is all in the tuning. the LS3 in the vettes is rated at 436hp (with the exhaust package). we have the same engine, but due to differences between the two vehicles, they required slightly different tunings.

as for the shift points, it really depends on the gear you're going to. you want to shift to where the next gear puts you in the sweet spot of your power band. a taller gear will need to rev higher before you shift into it than a shorter gear. take my truck for example: during normal driving, my 2-3 shift is around 2500 (going from a 2.32 to 1.40) anything much less than that starts to bog if i'm accelerating. my 3-4 shift (1.40 to 1.00), however can easily accelerate at a 2000 rpm shift.

i know that example's a bit different than racing, but not much and the principle's the same. it all depends on where the next gear will put your engine speed. hope that helped
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 10:47 PM   #8
Xanthos
Almost-Original Postwhore
 
Xanthos's Avatar
 
Drives: Stick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 12,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7CAMARO7 View Post
you will never have more power in one gear than the other, your engine just has more leverage over the drivetrain in lower gears.

the rpms=power (as far as the engine is concerned) 6000rpms in first is no more or less hp than 6000 in 5th, there's just a difference in speed

I was only speaking from experience with my ls1. I used to shift at 5500 which is where the red dot dot dot starts and I used to get horrible track times. That was back when I didn't know any better. I learned from all the other guys to shift at 6000 on my car. I started kicking ass after that

Also did you guys ever notice how the 97-04 ls1 vettes always were spec'ed at more power than our F-bodies? I noticed also that the same engine in the vette was spec'ed to something like 345 or 350hp@6000rpms with 350tq@5600rpms or something like that. Well for the fbodies they said 325hp@5500rpms and 325tq@ 4500rpms.

Why would it be different for the same exact engine? ITS NOT! Just something for you new guys to think about.

I also agree that the highest rpm is not always the best, but if the ls2 and ls3 follow after the ls1 then it is...
The bolded statement is not true.


Mathematically speaking, if (when x = current gears ration, y = next gears ratio, R = redline, and T = torque)



than you'll need to short-shift.
- Xanthos
__________________
Xanthos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 10:49 PM   #9
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by XanthosV6 View Post
The bolded statement is not true.


Mathematically speaking, if (when x = current gears ration, y = next gears ratio, R = redline, and T = torque)

(T @ R * y ) * y
x > 1
(T @ R) * x

than you'll need to short-shift.
- Xanthos
great explanation... for DGthe3!

care to tell us normal guys what that means?!
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 11:16 PM   #10
Xanthos
Almost-Original Postwhore
 
Xanthos's Avatar
 
Drives: Stick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 12,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
great explanation... for DGthe3!

care to tell us normal guys what that means?!
Heh. I put in a picture so you can see the equation better.


Basically what it means is that if you divide the new gear ratio by the old gear ratio, and multiply that by the ratio of the flywheel torque at the new RPM divided by the flywheel torque at the redline, and get a number greater than one, you need to short shift at the highest RPM where that number would be 1 or lower.

For example. An electric motor has the following torque curve.



and a 2 speed transmission, with first gear being a straight 1:1 gear and the second being a 0.5:1 "overdrive" gear.

At the 10,000 RPM "redline" in first gear, the motor would be producing a net 2 ft*lbs at the wheel. But at 5,000 RPM after the shift, it will be making 3.5 ft * lbs. Meaning there is a point where you could have short shifted for a larger net "power under the curve."

Heres a visual representation of this.



As you can see, the total area under the curve is higher in the short shifted instance than it is when you shifted at the redline - because while the curves are nearly identical, for that split second after you shifted (leading up to when you WOULD have shifted) you have more power.

This happens very rarely with modern transmissions (once you have a lot of gears to play with you can prevent this pretty easily), but it is a theoretical possibilty, especially once you start modding.
- Xanthos
__________________
Xanthos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 11:28 PM   #11
69 Hugger

 
69 Hugger's Avatar
 
Drives: 69 Convertible Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sumit Point, WV
Posts: 944
Attached Images
 
69 Hugger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 01:49 AM   #12
ucla1ove3

 
ucla1ove3's Avatar
 
Drives: soon to be 2010 CAMARO :]
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: houston, tx
Posts: 1,287
english is appreciated on this forum lol
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
If Toyota takes control of the Corvette, I swear on all that is holy that I will buy a one way ticket to Japan and suicide bomb the Toyota headquarters.
ucla1ove3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 08:48 AM   #13
Gentry78
HOOK'EM
 
Gentry78's Avatar
 
Drives: 97 c1500/92 olds
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,283
xanthos you must do alot of work with some type of motor or engine, or way to much free time to do research lol

cuz im like kinda
Gentry78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 08:59 AM   #14
Scott@Bjorn3D


 
Scott@Bjorn3D's Avatar
 
Drives: Kami, 2013 2SS LS3 Luvin
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Eufaula, Alabama
Posts: 6,158
Send a message via MSN to Scott@Bjorn3D
No that is not right, jeez here it is.
Attached Images
 
__________________
2013 2SS, GM Strut Tower Brace, CAI Intake Black, VMAX TB, Elite Catch Can, Hotchkis Chassis Brace, Hurst Shifter, 3.91 1LE Complete Rear End, NPP, 1LE Track Pack,Factory Reproductions Style 41 ZL1 Fitment Wheels 10" on all 4 corners
Scott@Bjorn3D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 09:36 AM   #15
PONYKILR
 
PONYKILR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 grand am
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 8
In the world of Engineering, graphs are useless without axis titles. Just something we're told non-stop...
__________________
You guys, you guys! Listen to this song I just wrote!
PONYKILR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:46 AM   #16
Xanthos
Almost-Original Postwhore
 
Xanthos's Avatar
 
Drives: Stick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 12,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by PONYKILR View Post
In the world of Engineering, graphs are useless without axis titles. Just something we're told non-stop...
Graphs are only useless without axis titles if the title is something less obvious. I titled mine both as Blank vs. Blank - its pretty much the same thing as an axis title. And the titles really don't matter in this case because I pulled the numbers out of my butt to illustrate a point anyway. The exact figures don't matter.

I'm not an engineer, though - I'm a physics major.
- Xanthos

P.S. - And by the way, I just do way too much research.

Although I do have some mechanical experience.
__________________
Xanthos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:58 AM   #17
New2010CamaroLover
 
New2010CamaroLover's Avatar
 
Drives: 2003 Honda Civic
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cali
Posts: 265
Wow this thread gives me a headache... How about shift when it feels right, that's generally what most peopledo anyways cuz it's too difficult to look down while racing.
__________________
"The Golden Age of muscle cars was not 30 years ago, it's now, long live the Camaro!"
2SS/RS Black/Black LS3 Not so patiently waiting
New2010CamaroLover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:59 AM   #18
Camarino
DrIvE iT LiKe Ya STOLE It
 
Camarino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2005 Mustang, '68 Camaro Z28
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 1,007
i used to practce shifting in my friends Civic ( IT WAs THE ONLY CAR AVAILABLE 2 ME @ THE TIME WITH A MANUAL lol) and i used to do like grandpa used to listen to the engine wind out you'll hear it wanna go 2 the next gear, i realize this is probably a less affective way but i'd like o learn how differnet gears have different sweet spots (i thats true)
__________________
Lol SILLY RICER WINGS ARE FOR PLANES! :flag1: :flag2: :flag1: :flag2:
Camarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 05:19 AM   #19
Silver Streak

 
Silver Streak's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Cobalt SS/TC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New Smyrna Bch. Florida
Posts: 1,449
Send a message via AIM to Silver Streak Send a message via MSN to Silver Streak
Every gear should have its own sweet spot, and as far as what XanthosV6 said :bangdesk: I definately agree!


__________________
"What? You wanna lay the fate of the world on that kids Camaro? That's cool!"

"The future is in the windshield, not the rear-view mirror!"

"If you haven't gone a 175 mph on land, you haven't lived! That's just a fact!" - Ricky Bobby
Silver Streak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 05:30 AM   #20
Milk 1027
Camaro➎ moderator
 
Milk 1027's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 BLK 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,535
Is it wrong that I actually understood that equation?


ugh. As far as I know I'm done with math classes and damn happy about it.
__________________
Milk 1027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 12:02 PM   #21
Camarino
DrIvE iT LiKe Ya STOLE It
 
Camarino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2005 Mustang, '68 Camaro Z28
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 1,007
I LOVE CARS!!!
I HATE MATH!!! PLZ DON'T PUT THEM TOGETHER !!! LOL
__________________
Lol SILLY RICER WINGS ARE FOR PLANES! :flag1: :flag2: :flag1: :flag2:
Camarino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 08:41 PM   #22
THE EVIL TW1N
Banned
 
Drives: 2003 Cobra Convertible
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 2,925
everygear SHOULD have a different rev limit/shif point, but judging by the other LS3's out there dyno's out there (stock), you will probably need to shift very close to redline (6500 rpm or so).
THE EVIL TW1N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 10:28 PM   #23
NightmareSS

 
NightmareSS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS 92 300zx 2001 Ram
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Staten Island, NYC
Posts: 1,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by PONYKILR View Post
I've noticed on the SS gauge cluster that the tach is blue to about 6k, with a blue line crossing at about 6250 RPM, then it is red to 6600, then red hashed past that. I am fully aware that the red hashing at 6600 is redline, but what about the area between 6250 and 6600 that's red, and what about the blue line crossing at 6250??? My guess is that it may be the optimal RPM to shift at for the 6-speed... Any other guesses
http://www.chevrolet.com/allnewcamaro/#camaro=photos
it would be like drag racing in need for speed!
__________________
NightmareSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 11:31 PM   #24
CynAgain


 
CynAgain's Avatar
 
Drives: Chevy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 7,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by New2010CamaroLover View Post
Wow this thread gives me a headache... How about shift when it feels right, that's generally what most peopledo anyways cuz it's too difficult to look down while racing.
It doesn't give me a headache ~ I like to know what the recommendations are and the logic behind it, but for me it really comes down to the feel. That's why I opted for the stick.
CynAgain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 11:36 PM   #25
Xanthos
Almost-Original Postwhore
 
Xanthos's Avatar
 
Drives: Stick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 12,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynAgain View Post
It doesn't give me a headache ~ I like to know what the recommendations are and the logic behind it, but for me it really comes down to the feel. That's why I opted for the stick.
And while this is a fine way to drive, its not the most efficient. The problem is that the gear your in doesn't give a hoot what the gear ratio will be after you shift - feel won't change based on the next gear, but will stay the same for every gear. So while you can feel when the engine wants to shift, you have to do the math and research to know when the transmission wants to shift.
- Xanthos
__________________
Xanthos is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
6-speed, gauge, redline, shift

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
camaro ss vs cobalt ss pandalove182 4th Generation Camaros 26 06-27-2011 03:13 PM
SS Bumper Swap? TJ91 Cosmetics and Lighting Modification Discussions 27 03-14-2009 03:32 AM
Automobilemag.com: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro - Q&A Scotsman 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 23 10-12-2008 01:13 AM
2010 Camaro SS vs Base Porsche 911? ihc95 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 104 09-28-2008 05:14 PM
RS SS at indy? marticus24 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 5 09-22-2008 07:27 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.