Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Gen5DIY
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6)


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-26-2011, 07:36 AM   #1
Dr Jkel
and MR. HYDE
 
Dr Jkel's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS RJT/BLK 6Spd Man
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posts: 4,441
Rear End Gears- Discuss

I have been looking into a few things about the drive train, specifically rear end gearing lately. I did a search and found a few things on this subject but was wanting to kind of get a thread with all the inforamtion in one area.

What do 4.10/4.11 gears really do for your car? Or far that matter what does any gear change do for your car?

Does having a bigger cam in your car make any difference in the gears you select?

Does increasing or decreasing the gear ratio in the rear end add added stress on the rear end resulting in other additions? Basically if you add gears should you change other things when you do this?


Does a gear change affect drivability, fuel mileage, longevity etc.....



I have seen a few threads about problems with gear swaps and a variety of opinion for the failures, so when doing a gear swap what should be looked at when doing this, what should you be aware of when considering this mod...i.e. Pro's and Con's


Vendors, Experts, all general opinions welcomed. Do not really want this to turn into Vendor A is better than Vendor B type or Product A is better than Product B.
__________________
MUSTANG...Like Bringing a Hot Dog to a Steak Dinner....There is no comparison.
Dr Jkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 09:53 AM   #2
v6sonoma


 
v6sonoma's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 8,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
I have been looking into a few things about the drive train, specifically rear end gearing lately. I did a search and found a few things on this subject but was wanting to kind of get a thread with all the inforamtion in one area.

What do 4.10/4.11 gears really do for your car? Or far that matter what does any gear change do for your car?

They increase the mechanical advantage so basically the engine rev's more to move the car less but since it's easier to do, it moves quick. Think changing gears on a 10 speed except that your engine can pedal faster.

Does having a bigger cam in your car make any difference in the gears you select?

Possibly. Depending on the cam you choose and you purposes it will move the power band. If you have a cam that brings it in the top end you'll run out of gear when the powers coming on. On the lower end with large amounts of power (HP) you'll roast the tires without trying and have no grip.


Does increasing or decreasing the gear ratio in the rear end add added stress on the rear end resulting in other additions? Basically if you add gears should you change other things when you do this?

Since switching to a lower gear ratio INCREASES the amount of power that is applied to the wheels then yes. Beefing things up does help, but mostly if it's a manual just make sure you don't abuse it.

Does a gear change affect drivability, fuel mileage, longevity etc.....

If set up correctly longevity shouldn't be much of a problem. Fuel mileage will be affected since it takes more rev's to move the same distance, however depending on your habits since you can drive in a taller gear some have seen improvements. Highway mileage will definitely take a small hit. Some gear noise might be heard.


I have seen a few threads about problems with gear swaps and a variety of opinion for the failures, so when doing a gear swap what should be looked at when doing this, what should you be aware of when considering this mod...i.e. Pro's and Con's

It's best to think what you want to get to in the end. If it's a 1000hp screamer 4.10's might be a bad idea. Make sure you take it to a place that has done it before and had good results. JRE has done quite a few as well as some other good shops on here. LPE offers a 3.91 gear that while pricey seems to be beefier than the 4.10's out there while offering similar gains.


Vendors, Experts, all general opinions welcomed. Do not really want this to turn into Vendor A is better than Vendor B type or Product A is better than Product B.
Also be aware that any gear change will require a tune.

Hope this helps.

(also if anyone else has something to add or finds me to be inaccurate feel free to correct/add)
__________________

Mods: BBK Intake, BBK LT's and High Flow Cats, Corsa Cat-back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, SLP skip-shift eliminator.

7/1/09 Placed order for IOM/IO int/ SS/RS 6M
9/26/09 Took delivery!
v6sonoma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 10:06 AM   #3
Dr Jkel
and MR. HYDE
 
Dr Jkel's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS RJT/BLK 6Spd Man
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posts: 4,441
I appreciate it......My cam is a stage II and I absolutely love it. It seems to come alive around 2500 to 2800 rpms, especially when you mash it. The issue is when not mashing it and putting around it seems that it feels sluggish at real low rpms so you have to rev it up.

I was told by lowering the gear that it would help on take offs and just crusing around type stuff in town and with the tall 6th gear that it would not affect fuel, drivability etc...too much.
__________________
MUSTANG...Like Bringing a Hot Dog to a Steak Dinner....There is no comparison.
Dr Jkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 10:07 AM   #4
pensphan87
 
pensphan87's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 IBM 2SS/RS Convertible Bliss
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Beaver County, Pa.
Posts: 455
So if I want a quicker car (faster 0-60 and 0-100) what gears would you choose?
Looking at 2012 2SS VERT
pensphan87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 10:45 AM   #5
steeleshark2


 
steeleshark2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Transformer 1SS Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kingsland, Ga
Posts: 2,558
For the SS an A6 go with 3.73s. For a M6 go with 3.91-4.11. These gears make a big difference with a cam. No sluggishness at all from stop to wherever you let off. Even everyday driving becomes a lot easier with gears. With my cam and gears, the PZeros sometimes start breaking loose before shifting into 2nd gear. Here is a video I made a while ago.

steeleshark2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:18 AM   #6
v6sonoma


 
v6sonoma's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 8,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
I appreciate it......My cam is a stage II and I absolutely love it. It seems to come alive around 2500 to 2800 rpms, especially when you mash it. The issue is when not mashing it and putting around it seems that it feels sluggish at real low rpms so you have to rev it up.

I was told by lowering the gear that it would help on take offs and just crusing around type stuff in town and with the tall 6th gear that it would not affect fuel, drivability etc...too much.
Correct. Your cam probably gives up some low end power to get more high rpm power so switching to a lower gear in the rear will give it some help off the line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pensphan87 View Post
So if I want a quicker car (faster 0-60 and 0-100) what gears would you choose?
Looking at 2012 2SS VERT
I would go with 3.73's for an auto or the LPE 3.91's or 4.10's if they are to costly for a stick.
__________________

Mods: BBK Intake, BBK LT's and High Flow Cats, Corsa Cat-back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, SLP skip-shift eliminator.

7/1/09 Placed order for IOM/IO int/ SS/RS 6M
9/26/09 Took delivery!
v6sonoma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:25 AM   #7
B-Rex
 
B-Rex's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 465
now if you get a cam that has a ton of high end power, but you still use 4.11/3.91 on a M6, are you going to be wasting power from the cam because the gears are so steep?
__________________
B-Rex 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Hurst, LG, C.A.I., Flowmaster, Pfadt, Pedders, U.S. Gear/Axle Tech, LPW, SJM, Nitto, Nitrous Outlet, ZEX
B-Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:28 AM   #8
v6sonoma


 
v6sonoma's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 8,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Rex View Post
now if you get a cam that has a ton of high end power, but you still use 4.11/3.91 on a M6, are you going to be wasting power from the cam because the gears are so steep?
No you'll just have to change gears sooner which if drag racing might add another shift to your 1/4 mile run and might hurt you time, but it all depends on your individual goals.
__________________

Mods: BBK Intake, BBK LT's and High Flow Cats, Corsa Cat-back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, SLP skip-shift eliminator.

7/1/09 Placed order for IOM/IO int/ SS/RS 6M
9/26/09 Took delivery!
v6sonoma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:31 AM   #9
B-Rex
 
B-Rex's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 465
1/4 mile time would be my end goals, but i was just wondering in general. a 3>4 shift is pretty easy to do, and 4.11/3.91s would hopefully make up for it (and then some) in the 60'.

this is my train of thought anyways, i don't know because i haven't done it yet
__________________
B-Rex 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Hurst, LG, C.A.I., Flowmaster, Pfadt, Pedders, U.S. Gear/Axle Tech, LPW, SJM, Nitto, Nitrous Outlet, ZEX
B-Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 11:56 AM   #10
SSE 4 2SS
Boosted Moderator
 
SSE 4 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Bone Stock LS3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kyle Tx
Posts: 14,442
Send a message via AIM to SSE 4 2SS Send a message via Yahoo to SSE 4 2SS
There is a science to selecting gears for your car... And there are calculators to help you with the process...

There are lots of people that select a gear that sounds like a race gear... 4.10, 4.11, 3.93's etc... But, this is a WAG at best... ( wild ass guess )

Proper gear selection involves the specific hp/Tq range and goals for the car...

For the quarter mile, you want to select a gear that has you trapping at the peK of your power band in the given gear. With the six speed transmissions, is usually equates to third or fourth gear...

my Camaro when stock was crossing the finish line red lining in 3rd or I had just shifted to 4th... now I'm going into 4th at the 1/8th mile, same speed as I used to trap at the quarter...

What this translates to is, 4.11s would be stupid crazy for me... I would be in fifth gear in the quarter... No thanks....fewer shifts for me...

I am going with 3.07 gears when I upgrade to a nine inch differential... The calculators say this will allow me to go 219 mph in 5th gear... For the standing mile runs, and I should be close to topping 4th gear in the 1/4 mile... so, I'm in strong areas of the power band for the entire runs...

Finding the gear you need involves either a calculator, or some seat time at the track... Make some passes and determine where you are at the end of the pass... GM got it about perfect on the stock LS-3... redlining third...at the quarter.. Next make a choice if you have the power to run out of 4th in the quarter,,,,then a taller gear may be in order... But don't go too far or you end up in 5th in the quarter...

any power adders will put you into 4th in the quarter, so gear appropriate to redline or close to it, or go with a taller gear and try to keep it in 3rd....

4th gear can be a long pull if underpowered...

I've been to 5800 - 6000 rpm or thereabouts in 4th gear in the quarter, and this was with a very easy launch... 2.55 60 ft... On purpose... Car was at 131 mph... With a hard launch and shifting sooner, I'll run out of 4th gear so I'm going with a taller gear set... More importantly, I plan on going over 200 in the mile and I don't want to go into 6th trying to do so....
__________________
If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow. -Ross Bentley

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall.
Torque is how far you take the wall with you.

“If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.” Mario Andretti

If you can turn, you ain't going fast enough...
SSE 4 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 12:04 PM   #11
steeleshark2


 
steeleshark2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Transformer 1SS Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kingsland, Ga
Posts: 2,558
Yeah, with the 4.11s 4th will get you into the 120s mph range. Thats why I recommend 3.73 or stay stock if you are going supercharged for an LS3. Why go less then stock? 3.45 gives you a 161mph 4th gear.
steeleshark2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 12:11 PM   #12
SSE 4 2SS
Boosted Moderator
 
SSE 4 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Bone Stock LS3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kyle Tx
Posts: 14,442
Send a message via AIM to SSE 4 2SS Send a message via Yahoo to SSE 4 2SS
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeleshark2 View Post
Yeah, with the 4.11s 4th will get you into the 120s mph range. Thats why I recommend 3.73 or stay stock if you are going supercharged for an LS3. Why go less then stock? 3.45 gives you a 161mph 4th gear.
Good point, but as mentioned, my goal is to run over 200 in the standing mile...

3.45's allow me to go 196 in 5th gear or therabouts, 3.07's allow me to go 219 in 5th...

Shifting into 6th would pretty much assure no chance of hitting 200... so... My car will still pull in 6th gear rather than falling on her face, but... to break 200, I need to stay in 5th... and thats a long pull... The computer programs say my car is power limited in 6th gear at 236 as it currently sits, but it would take a long run to get there... I will go to the Texas Mile with substantially more power than I have right now...
__________________
If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow. -Ross Bentley

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall.
Torque is how far you take the wall with you.

“If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.” Mario Andretti

If you can turn, you ain't going fast enough...
SSE 4 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 12:18 PM   #13
SSE 4 2SS
Boosted Moderator
 
SSE 4 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Bone Stock LS3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kyle Tx
Posts: 14,442
Send a message via AIM to SSE 4 2SS Send a message via Yahoo to SSE 4 2SS
Steeleshark2, I went and watched the video you posted above, very nice comparo...
__________________
If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow. -Ross Bentley

Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall.
Torque is how far you take the wall with you.

“If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.” Mario Andretti

If you can turn, you ain't going fast enough...
SSE 4 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2011, 01:17 PM   #14
Dr Jkel
and MR. HYDE
 
Dr Jkel's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS RJT/BLK 6Spd Man
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oxford, Alabama
Posts: 4,441
Hey Robert... In my case since I do not really track my car, or race I am mainly looking to increase low end take off without sacrificing top end power.

The fasterest I have ever had my car was 132 mph on a controlled roadway, but I would never want to change a gear and run around town and it sound like I am going 300 mph because the rpms are so high.

What do you think about that? Remember I have only 463 rwhp.
__________________
MUSTANG...Like Bringing a Hot Dog to a Steak Dinner....There is no comparison.
Dr Jkel is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rear end "popping" noise, need help and opinions Fiftydriver V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6) 35 09-19-2013 08:47 PM
Modifying for " Dummies" Dr Jkel Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission 209 06-17-2012 11:24 PM
JRE 3.73 rear end w/ posi installed.....questions Fiftydriver V8 and V6 Transmissions / Driveline (6L80 / 6L50 / TR6060 / AY6) 4 04-17-2011 07:04 PM
Who do you trust installing rear end gears in the SE?? tjbusa USA - Southeast 3 11-01-2010 07:39 PM
Im sure this has been asked before.. But forgive my innocence :) gmag21 Suspension / Brakes / Chassis 23 02-21-2010 10:29 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.