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Old 09-03-2011, 10:46 PM   #1
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Question SLP vs. BMR vs. Spohn vs. Whiteline Sway bars... is thicker better?

Hey everyone! I've been looking at sway bars for a while now and i was ready to purchase a set when i started paying a little bit more attention to all the specs on the bars. Example...

*SLP sways front 29mm 2 positions of adjustability and rear are 29mm thick with 3 positions.
*BMR front 29mm and rear 25mm with 3 positions of adjustability in each bar.
*Spohn front 29mm 1 position and rear 25mm with 3 positions of adjustability.
*Spohn (competition) front 32mm 1 position and rear 32mm solid with 3 positions of adjustability.
*Whiteline front and rear are 27mm with 3 positions of adjustability (I belive)
***STOCK OEM they are 23mm***

Well my queation is... Are the thicker the sway bars the better?? Do having more positions of adjustability better too?? Whats the difference from a sway that is solid chrome molly to one that is lightweight. I also notice that out of all the sway bars BMR happens to have the stiffest front and rear sways. Front sway +200% over stock and rear +300% stiffer over stock and rear sway is only 25mm compared to that Competition Spohn sway that is 32mm. If anyone can help me out on trying to figure out whats better and why i would really appreciate it! Thanks!!!!!
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:40 AM   #2
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Anti roll bars exist in order to combat body roll. Roll stiffness is a calculation based upon track width and vehicle weight. Once this calculation is made then a proper sized bar can be determined. However not all bars are created equal. A larger bar doesn't always mean stiffer. You have to take into account hollow bars versus solid bars and on hollow bars you have to account for wall thickness. Hollow bars have to be larger to work the same as a smaller solid bar. Also on hollow bars, during bending the wall thickness changes at those bends. Whiteline chooses solid bars and they also choose not to weld anything to their bars. The reason for this is simply so that they know there is no structural compromises during manufacturing and that the bar works as it was designed. Once you have the correct diameter bar based on calculation then you can add in adjustability for oversteer and understeer. We all know the Camaro suffers from understeer. By putting the rear bar at full stiff and the front in neutral this understeer is gone. But whiteline also gives front adjustability so the driver can tune the vehicle to his liking.

I have included a video which talks more about the adjustability of the whiteline sway bars.

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Old 09-04-2011, 01:26 PM   #3
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteside Customs View Post
Anti roll bars exist in order to combat body roll. Roll stiffness is a calculation based upon track width and vehicle weight. Once this calculation is made then a proper sized bar can be determined. However not all bars are created equal. A larger bar doesn't always mean stiffer. You have to take into account hollow bars versus solid bars and on hollow bars you have to account for wall thickness. Hollow bars have to be larger to work the same as a smaller solid bar. Also on hollow bars, during bending the wall thickness changes at those bends. Whiteline chooses solid bars and they also choose not to weld anything to their bars. The reason for this is simply so that they know there is no structural compromises during manufacturing and that the bar works as it was designed. Once you have the correct diameter bar based on calculation then you can add in adjustability for oversteer and understeer. We all know the Camaro suffers from understeer. By putting the rear bar at full stiff and the front in neutral this understeer is gone. But whiteline also gives front adjustability so the driver can tune the vehicle to his liking.

I have included a video which talks more about the adjustability of the whiteline sway bars.

... So just stay away from hollow bars. So now... I plan to take the car to the race track every now and then. Is a solid thicker bar in the rear better?? Is a stiffer bar also better for the track? Or the more adjustability better all around? I just want the car to be able to launch good!
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:44 PM   #4
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There's nothing wrong with hollow bars if they're engineered properly. Solid bars can be poorly engineered just as easily. Going stiffer in the back will reduce understeer but too stiff will increase oversteer. It'll depend on your total setup where you should adjust them to so adjustable are nice.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAWLZ SS View Post
... So just stay away from hollow bars. So now... I plan to take the car to the race track every now and then. Is a solid thicker bar in the rear better?? Is a stiffer bar also better for the track? Or the more adjustability better all around? I just want the car to be able to launch good!
As was mentioned, hollow bars are fine if done right. Also welding the ends on the bars is fine, if done right. Pfadt and BMR weld their ends on. With as much abuse as they put their stuff through, I think they'd have had few failures by now if their parts were inferior.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:47 PM   #6
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... So just stay away from hollow bars.
Stay away from poorly designed and built hollow bars.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:35 PM   #7
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A properly engineered hollow bar can be just as good as a solid bar. I was simply pointing out that a hollow bar has to be larger to perform the same as a smaller solid bar. At the end of the day each company spends a lot of time engineering their solution.

We have chosen to support BMR and white line products. Why? Simple, they work. Both companies spend countless hours designing, engineering, and then testing each product they release. They also stand behind what they sell and that is the most important factor for us.
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Old 09-05-2011, 02:40 PM   #8
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I have the 27mm pedders solution B bars. Assuming what whiteside said above regarding the swaybars settings for neutral handling apply to these as well? Looking for the flattest cornering and most neutral handling setup.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by stros View Post
I have the 27mm pedders solution B bars. Assuming what whiteside said above regarding the swaybars settings for neutral handling apply to these as well? Looking for the flattest cornering and most neutral handling setup.
Seeing that Pedders is always on here and Pete is very helpful, why not call or PM them to see what they recommend for your driving style.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:52 AM   #10
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I would like to throw our bars in the ring. We have many here who are very happy with our bars. very price and, performance competitive. Its not all about the thickness. design plays a big roll in anti roll. LOL you can call me anytime for more info or pricing. I always give a discount to members.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:28 AM   #11
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As mentioned above, there are more factors beyond diameter that determine the rate of the sway bars and the effectiveness of the bars. This is accomplished with different wall thicknesses and different lever arm lengths.

Some companies just increase both bar diameters an equal amount assuming that the factory got the front-to-rear balance correct. GM specifically engineered understeer into this platform, a common practice for OE high performance cars because it makes them "safer" to drive for inexperienced drivers. Everyone has their opinion about this but we prefer to neutralize the understeer and start with a balanced car. To neutralize the understeer it takes a rear bar rate almost twice as stiff as the OE rate. This can be accomplished with the softest hole on our rear bar.

This has already been pointed out above but I just wanted to remind everyone why we use hollow bars. Arguments can be made in each direction but consider that Detroit, Europe and Japan all run hollow swaybars on every performance car they manufacture. It's not cheaper or easier to build them with tubing (in fact it's more expensive and complicated) so why do they do it? They do it for multiple reasons, the same reasons we do.

The Camaro gets better with each generation making our job more difficult (we make suspension for all 5 generations of the Camaro). We could have easily made our swaybars solid but we specifically chose to make them hollow, a much more difficult process. We could have also chose to make them non-adjustable to keep costs down but we didn't. Multiple tests and hours of research went into our swaybars to make a product worthy of this platform. In the end you get a completely adjustable bar that can adapt to your level of driving expertise, a bar manufactured with the most current technology, AND one that does both of these things while remaining competitively priced in the market.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR guy View Post
As mentioned above, there are more factors beyond diameter that determine the rate of the sway bars and the effectiveness of the bars. This is accomplished with different wall thicknesses and different lever arm lengths.

Some companies just increase both bar diameters an equal amount assuming that the factory got the front-to-rear balance correct. GM specifically engineered understeer into this platform, a common practice for OE high performance cars because it makes them "safer" to drive for inexperienced drivers. Everyone has their opinion about this but we prefer to neutralize the understeer and start with a balanced car. To neutralize the understeer it takes a rear bar rate almost twice as stiff as the OE rate. This can be accomplished with the softest hole on our rear bar.

This has already been pointed out above but I just wanted to remind everyone why we use hollow bars. Arguments can be made in each direction but consider that Detroit, Europe and Japan all run hollow swaybars on every performance car they manufacture. It's not cheaper or easier to build them with tubing (in fact it's more expensive and complicated) so why do they do it? They do it for multiple reasons, the same reasons we do.

The Camaro gets better with each generation making our job more difficult (we make suspension for all 5 generations of the Camaro). We could have easily made our swaybars solid but we specifically chose to make them hollow, a much more difficult process. We could have also chose to make them non-adjustable to keep costs down but we didn't. Multiple tests and hours of research went into our swaybars to make a product worthy of this platform. In the end you get a completely adjustable bar that can adapt to your level of driving expertise, a bar manufactured with the most current technology, AND one that does both of these things while remaining competitively priced in the market.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:06 AM   #13
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I have the 27mm pedders solution B bars. Assuming what whiteside said above regarding the swaybars settings for neutral handling apply to these as well? Looking for the flattest cornering and most neutral handling setup.

I'm pretty confident in saying yes those same settings should work very well.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Whiteside Customs View Post
A properly engineered hollow bar can be just as good as a solid bar. I was simply pointing out that a hollow bar has to be larger to perform the same as a smaller solid bar. At the end of the day each company spends a lot of time engineering their solution.

We have chosen to support BMR and white line products. Why? Simple, they work. Both companies spend countless hours designing, engineering, and then testing each product they release. They also stand behind what they sell and that is the most important factor for us.
There is a difference between hollow and solid bars. No matter how thick the hollow bar is, if they are both the same diameter and dimensions, the solid bar will outperform the hollow bar every time.

The weight difference is insignificant!. Considering the weight is so low to the ground
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:29 AM   #15
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If they were the same in every way other than hollow and, solid then the solid bar would be more stiff than the hollow bar. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is better or will out perform the hollow bar. There is a point where to stiff of a bar is not good. It comes down to weather or not the bars are design to balance the car in a way that the driver wants. Under steer / over steer and so on. Thats why when ever possible we make our bars with adjust-ability to them. The driver can change to there style of driving.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:04 AM   #16
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There is a difference between hollow and solid bars. No matter how thick the hollow bar is, if they are both the same diameter and dimensions, the solid bar will outperform the hollow bar every time.
Everybody understands that there is a difference between solid and hollow bars, that is not in dispute. They both can work just fine but what determines how well they work is how properly matched the rates are for the given application. The rate is everything whether you accomplish it with solid bar stock or DOM tubing. The blank claim that a solid bar will outperform a hollow bar (given identical dimensions) is purely subjective since the requirements can and are being accomplished with each design.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:23 PM   #17
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I totally agree that you can go too far on a bar. A bar needs to be the last thing you do after you do an overall upgrade, which ranges from dampers, coils to tires and wheels.

But in all cases, given the exact dimensions, a solid bar will outperform a hollow bar by at least 30% minimum. This is pretty easy to figure out mathematically
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:53 PM   #18
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I suggest going with the Pfadt bars if you're planning on doing any tracking and they are also excellent on the street. Sway bars control roll stiffness as well as balance the chassis. GM designed the car to understeer as this is "safer" for the average driver on the street. The way to combat this in the 5th gen is by increasing the rear roll stiffness substantially while increasing the front moderately.



Front Sway Rates


Rear Sway Rates


The charts above clearly show how much stiffer the OEM front bar is in relation to the OEM rear bar. To get the chassis to a neutral state the rear sway stiffness must be increased dramatically to achieve this while the front bar is only increased marginally. A lot of manufactures simply take the OEM rate and multiply it by a nominal number (Same % front and rear) to achieve less body roll and the car does feel more responsive. The problem in this case is the front tire becomes overloaded faster leading to overstated understeer.

I spend a lot of time on the track as well as the street testing and this bar package balances the chassis the best IMHO. The drivabilty remains very similar to stock on the street while driving down the highway but 1 corner and you'll know your Camaro has been changed for the better. I also suggest going with the redesigned Pfadt endlinks; I've been running them for a while now and they are EXCELLENT!!

Please feel free to call, email or PM me anytime with questions. I'm always happy to help you find the best set up to achieve your ultimate goals. Have a good one and I'll talk to you soon!

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Old 09-07-2011, 10:57 PM   #19
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I totally agree that you can go too far on a bar. A bar needs to be the last thing you do after you do an overall upgrade, which ranges from dampers, coils to tires and wheels.
I'm going to have to disagree. I think a good set of Sways should be one of the first modifications. You need to bring balance to the chassis and sways are the means of doing that. Springs, dampers and bushings certainly make a substantial difference but sways are # 1 in my opinion.

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Old 09-09-2011, 10:11 AM   #20
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wowza. Some mis information here. First of all they are ANTI sway bars, or better yet anti roll bars (ARBs)

Hollow vs Solid. Properly designed, hollow is better- period. However, given the design constraints imposed by the Camaro chassis, a solid bar (especially front) is prudent. Don't let solid vs hollow sway your decision. IE, a solid bar vs a hollow bar- stiffness difference is about +10% (give or take) yet the weight could be as much as 500%+. yes its low weight, but it is partial sprung and weight is NEVER good.

There is WAY more that goes into properly designing a bar than "track width and vehicle weight". Although its been awhile since I derived the equation by hand (I have kinematic software and matlab programs I have written to do it for me now).. It involves roll centers, ride frequency, motion ratios, grip levels and a few other things at a MINIMUM. Realistically we start looking at tire data and camber gain/steer camber as well to get as close as possible. The big boys do complete simulations.

We sell and install Pfadt stuff for our street customers. Not to piss on anybodies cheerios, but I feel like they have done their homework the best. not saying they have the end-all-be-all product, but they certainly have the best method to get there.

For somebody that is very serious about road racing/autocrossing or building a race car we of course recommend our anti roll bars (and matched shocks/springs of course). They are expensive, but carefully engineered and tested in GRAND-AM and World Challenge to be light and the proper stiffness, along with offering the correct range of adjustablity.

Very, VERY few people in the street car industry truly understand suspension design and setup. The ones that do often move on to pro level racing because they can make six figures doing so.

Ironically there is a manufacture who copied something off our cars last year for their ARBs (but made them out of press bent material instead of our CNC cut parts).... but they didn't take into account the whole SYSTEM which encompasses our shocks and springs, and thus they probably have one of the poorer setups. Obviously we don't carry this product.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:41 PM   #21
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wowza. Some mis information here. First of all they are ANTI sway bars, or better yet anti roll bars (ARBs)

Hollow vs Solid. Properly designed, hollow is better- period. However, given the design constraints imposed by the Camaro chassis, a solid bar (especially front) is prudent. Don't let solid vs hollow sway your decision. IE, a solid bar vs a hollow bar- stiffness difference is about +10% (give or take) yet the weight could be as much as 500%+. yes its low weight, but it is partial sprung and weight is NEVER good.

There is WAY more that goes into properly designing a bar than "track width and vehicle weight". Although its been awhile since I derived the equation by hand (I have kinematic software and matlab programs I have written to do it for me now).. It involves roll centers, ride frequency, motion ratios, grip levels and a few other things at a MINIMUM. Realistically we start looking at tire data and camber gain/steer camber as well to get as close as possible. The big boys do complete simulations.

We sell and install Pfadt stuff for our street customers. Not to piss on anybodies cheerios, but I feel like they have done their homework the best. not saying they have the end-all-be-all product, but they certainly have the best method to get there.

For somebody that is very serious about road racing/autocrossing or building a race car we of course recommend our anti roll bars (and matched shocks/springs of course). They are expensive, but carefully engineered and tested in GRAND-AM and World Challenge to be light and the proper stiffness, along with offering the correct range of adjustablity.

Very, VERY few people in the street car industry truly understand suspension design and setup. The ones that do often move on to pro level racing because they can make six figures doing so.

Ironically there is a manufacture who copied something off our cars last year for their ARBs (but made them out of press bent material instead of our CNC cut parts).... but they didn't take into account the whole SYSTEM which encompasses our shocks and springs, and thus they probably have one of the poorer setups. Obviously we don't carry this product.
I totally disagree with you! My comments are specifically targeted to the Camaro. And you are correct. There are limitations in dimensions, yet most vehicles have limitations as well. With respect to strength,math does not lie. Up to and including a hollow bar that has .300 wall thickness, a 32mm solid bar will outperform in terms of strength, a hollow. The math is on this forum somewheres.
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Old 09-11-2011, 02:02 PM   #22
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You can disagree all you want, but it's true

You are confusing terms here. Strength refers to the material property that involves yielding for failure. (fatigue life also, which is more likely to occur on an ARB and is dependent surface finish, heat treating etc). When discussing anti roll bars we are primarily concerned with modulus (or the 'springiness' of the material). Anti roll bars (when reasonably well designed) don't break(aka lack of strength).

A solid bar will always be stiffer and "stronger" than an equivalent hollow bar. However, if you don't NEED the bar to be stronger it is just added weight.

You missed my above rough example. A .120 wall 1" ARB is only about 10% softer than a SOLID 1" bar, yet weights a lot more.. 10% loss of stiffness, yet is a lot lighter.

Highly evolved bars like in NASCAR are CRAZY thin, like .050 wall sometimes. But they are bigger around. They get all the stiffness they need, and save a ton of weight.

Hope that makes sense, Ive seen people bicker over "ARB strength" when it is basically irrelevant. Unless you are building crazy thin bars (like the NASCAR example of a 2" OD, .050 wall tube) you aren't going to break the bar itself.

My personal Camaro street car has a mild steel (not even chro-mo) .090 wall ARB on it, and it has never had any issues.

Edit:
here are some real world numbers.

A solid 1.000 bar vs a 1.125" hollow (.120 wall) bar.

The hollow bar is virtually the same stiffness (1.5% or so stiffer actually).

The solid bar (assuming 36" long, and no levers which is actually optimistic) weights about 8lbs
The hollow bar, that is STIFFER, weights about 4lbs!

NEITHER will have any problems with strength (yielding because of max stress or fatigue life).


The only reason why (esp front) bars on the Camaro are solid is because of cost. They are a LOT cheaper to produce.
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