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Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions Discuss pricing and ordering experiences.

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Old 04-05-2014, 05:30 PM   #51
The_Blur
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Depending on your interest rate, every thousand dollars is roughly $20. That's certainly something to consider, but look at the well-equipped Camaro I posted. This 2SS had its Preferred pricing very close to its invoice price. There's not much else that can be added in terms of equipment, meaning that not much change in price is even possible. I stand by the argument that getting invoice is the best reasonable deal a walk-in customer can get at the dealer. Now, if you're looking to screw somebody, ask for holdback and tell them to pay the taxes. See if they bother to take you seriously.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Depending on your interest rate, every thousand dollars is roughly $20. That's certainly something to consider, but look at the well-equipped Camaro I posted. This 2SS had its Preferred pricing very close to its invoice price. There's not much else that can be added in terms of equipment, meaning that not much change in price is even possible. I stand by the argument that getting invoice is the best reasonable deal a walk-in customer can get at the dealer. Now, if you're looking to screw somebody, ask for holdback and tell them to pay the taxes. See if they bother to take you seriously.
I agree that invoice is a great deal and asking for tax off would be insane however on every deal I do I'm currently $1100 back of invoice plus 395 in charges minus any rebates. so assuming that this car had a 500 rebate at time of purchase my pricing would be. 35226 plus tax. I make a flat $180 off each car I sell and bonus at 16 and 22 cars. Guess it pays to be the largest GM dealer in the northwest for the past 19 years. we have very low overhead because all our property is paid for and little taxes because of our location. we make our money off the manufactures bonus and of course financing(which we are extremely completive rate wise)accessories and service. We move 1000 rigs a month. I would say that we are the exception. Once again invoice is a great price but one can do better with the right dealership.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:55 PM   #53
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I disagree with "invoice" being the goal, because you can do better.

First of all, "invoice" ain't what it used to be. Just five years ago, there was a nearly universal spread of 9-9.5% between MSRP and "invoice". I found in my recent negotiation that "invoice" was only 4-4.5% below MSRP. Obviously, dealers and manufacturers got tired of the public having access to their secrets via the Internet. They are now 'hiding the pea' elsewhere. Trust me. There is plenty of profit for the dealer below invoice. Every dealer gets a kickback from GM on every program out there. You know those "advertising" fees that are now added onto every invoice? The dealer gets kick backs by participating in the regional advertising. Get any kind of incentive? The dealer gets a kickback. There is so much hidden money flowing from the OE to the dealer that it becomes very difficult to ascertain what is, and what is not a good deal.

My experience was this. I started by sending out an email to a half dozen dealers in my area informing them of exactly the configuration I was going to buy and requesting a quote on a factory order (because I knew my combination didn't exist on anyone's lot). Almost every dealer started at least with "preferred pricing" (supplier) which for my spec was a couple hundred above invoice. Some were $200 below invoice. The serious Internet sellers were $700 below invoice on their initial quote. Still think invoice is a good price?

I used these quotes to establish a pecking order for the dealers I would negotiate with FTF. The very first dealer I went to see in person increased their offer from invoice <$700 to $1100 below invoice, before incentives which at that time meant another $500 in customer cash. I decided to introduce a trade which complicated the deal but eventually arrived at a satisfactory difference and ultimately amassed another $2000 in cash incentives on top of that.

It just so happened that the finance manager was careless with the paperwork he left laying around and I saw the profit calc sheet they keep on every transaction. The dealer still made $900 on me. Obviously, despite all the salesman's protestations that I got such a great deal, it was still above the minimum transaction threshold for this dealer. I am very happy wth this deal because, after all, the dealer's website doesn't end in .org. They have to make a profit on every deal. I share this with you so that you do not accept the dealer's position that invoice is a "good deal". Invoice today is a good deal for the dealer. You can do better.
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Indydriver View Post
I disagree with "invoice" being the goal, because you can do better.

First of all, "invoice" ain't what it used to be. Just five years ago, there was a nearly universal spread of 9-9.5% between MSRP and "invoice". I found in my recent negotiation that "invoice" was only 4-4.5% below MSRP. Obviously, dealers and manufacturers got tired of the public having access to their secrets via the Internet. They are now 'hiding the pea' elsewhere. Trust me. There is plenty of profit for the dealer below invoice. Every dealer gets a kickback from GM on every program out there. You know those "advertising" fees that are now added onto every invoice? The dealer gets kick backs by participating in the regional advertising. Get any kind of incentive? The dealer gets a kickback. There is so much hidden money flowing from the OE to the dealer that it becomes very difficult to ascertain what is, and what is not a good deal.

My experience was this. I started by sending out an email to a half dozen dealers in my area informing them of exactly the configuration I was going to buy and requesting a quote on a factory order (because I knew my combination didn't exist on anyone's lot). Almost every dealer started at least with "preferred pricing" (supplier) which for my spec was a couple hundred above invoice. Some were $200 below invoice. The serious Internet sellers were $700 below invoice on their initial quote. Still think invoice is a good price?

I used these quotes to establish a pecking order for the dealers I would negotiate with FTF. The very first dealer I went to see in person increased their offer from invoice <$700 to $1100 below invoice, before incentives which at that time meant another $500 in customer cash. I decided to introduce a trade which complicated the deal but eventually arrived at a satisfactory difference and ultimately amassed another $2000 in cash incentives on top of that.

It just so happened that the finance manager was careless with the paperwork he left laying around and I saw the profit calc sheet they keep on every transaction. The dealer still made $900 on me. Obviously, despite all the salesman's protestations that I got such a great deal, it was still above the minimum transaction threshold for this dealer. I am very happy wth this deal because, after all, the dealer's website doesn't end in .org. They have to make a profit on every deal. I share this with you so that you do not accept the dealer's position that invoice is a "good deal". Invoice today is a good deal for the dealer. You can do better.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:02 AM   #55
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The hold back is $1115
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:36 PM   #56
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I could have sworn that the dealer has 2 invoices. They have a wholesale invoice and a retail invoice. The invoice shown in the original post shows the RS package costing $1350. Where as, the wholesale invoice will show $1188, or at least that's what I've seen before and used to haggle when negotiating my car.
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Old 07-03-2014, 06:46 PM   #57
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The dealer cost is called holdback. Holdback is not enough for a dealer to stay in business if they sell every car at that cost. Now that you bring it up, I'm sure a bunch of armchair economists will join the thread and tell us all how they'll make money on volume, but cars aren't sold in bulk. They are all sold to dealers at the same price with small fluctuations and special incentives to high-volume dealers.

In any case, I talk about invoice because that's where most people can get a deal. After 3 hours of negotiating a deal, most people don't try to hold out for holdback. If I were selling you the car, I'd get rid of you and take another customer. Not as many people negotiate as you think, and losing a non-profitable deal just to sell a car sounds like a load of garbage to me. Asking for something they reasonably can do most of the time is something that I can endorse when giving negotiation advice.

All of that being said, try asking for holdback. They'll "see what we can do" or they'll just tell you that's not possible. After visiting with their manager, they'll reach holdback with incentives and offer you a car at holdback, but it's not really holdback because they're using specials to get there, and you don't get to take those discounts from holdback. If it were up to me, I'd add all available incentives to holdback and then use that price as a discussion point and then claim you were getting my fake holdback or incentives, whichever is more profitable for me.

Remember, car sales are not about customer service. That's what GM provides with a warranty and service departments provide with maintenance. Sales is about production. They move volume and make gross sales. Those are the metrics that really matter. Sure, there are surveys, and good surveys mean more dealer money, but the business isn't about making people happy. If it were, then every car would be free. When was the last time you got a free car?

As a final note on this post, these sales guys might be the scum of the Earth in your opinion, but they have families to feed and work more hours than a good number of you to feed them. Each commission they earn has to make up for the hours of waiting for a customer to show up when they're making nothing. Keep that in mind the next time you're trying to play hardball with the dealer for a sub-invoice deal. Most dealers have a program called a mini-deal. The mini-deal is the minimum amount a salesperson makes on a car, and I've seen as low as $50 when a car sells for a loss. The average sale takes 3 hours, and that $50 may be all they make for a few days.
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Old 10-31-2014, 05:34 PM   #58
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Damn, that was good reading. Thanks everyone.
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